Is there evidence that Adolph Ruth’s body may have been moved twice?

[Steve Jenkins]

Hi folks. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have been looking at the threads regarding Adolph Ruth and I am having some problems regarding a few details that confuse me. Please feel free to educate or correct me. I admit I am new to this and have thick skin.

The first detail is that I believe his remains were found along with essentially light duty shoes and that he had access to more suitable foot ware at his campsite.

Does it not seem reasonable that Adolph would not have been wandering far from his campsite without the best shoes for the job?

It is unclear to me where his base camp supplies were found in relationship to the reports of where his remains are ultimately discovered. I am not talking about where his base camp was alleged to be but where his supplies were located.

I accept that it is in dispute as to whether the body was moved from Pete’s Mesa to where it was ultimately found.

I am aware of the photo that was included in the Maricopa Sheriff’s report that had a handwritten notation on the back to the affect that the photo represented Ruth’s “final” base camp. This implies that there were at least two.

I have seen claims by those now knowledgeable in the local terrain than I, that this photo is more likely than not to be in the area of Pete’s Mesa. If this is true it would support the idea that there is more than one base.

It defies logic that Ruth would have been able to make the trip by foot from Pete’s Mesa to where his remains were ultimately found without proper footware.

Is anyone aware of whether or not there was supporting evidence for this claim? I am specifically wondering where his hiking boots were found?

If his proper hiking boots were not found on Pete’s Mesa and one supports the conclusion that the body was moved from there, it logically follows that Ruth could not have made the trip from his original basecamp to Pete’s Mesa in his camp shoes.

This would imply that the body may have been moved twice?

No matter whether one holds the view that the body was moved or not, the location where the proper footware was ultimately found in relation to where his remains were ultimately found seems to be a critical piece of key evidence whether one believes foul play was involved in Ruth’s death and whether or not the body was moved.

Thenkyou in advance for any help with respect to this issue.

Steve

 

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[Steve Jenkins]

I just found another thread related to the subject which contains a post by Mathew Roberts in which he states that Ruth’s hiking boots were located at the original base camp located at Willow Springs in West Boulder Canyon.

If in fact Ruth’s body was initially found on Pete’s Mesa, it seems unlikely that it got there on foot in street shoes when he had a better option available.

If one accepts the theory that Ruth was killed on Pete’s Mesa and moved to its final location how and why would,Ruth make the journey without his best footware?

I realize some speciation is taking place but is it not logical that Ruth was killed close to where he kept his hiking boots?

I have not seen a claim of the body being moved twice. I realize that even moving it once is very controversial but ....

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Does anyone know of any supporting evidence in the Sheriff’s file of a second camp on Pete’s Mesa besides the Photo and related comment?

 

[vpnavy]

Hi folks. I am new to the forum...

I noticed this was your very first post - so, Welcome Aboard Steve! Take a look at Sub-Forums: Arizona for information (i.e., clubs, etc.) directly related to your state.

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Thank you.

 

[sgtfda]

Ruth died of natural causes as per Tom K. His wife's relative was the medical examiner on that case. Both holes in his head were fractured in. Not one in and one out.

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Thank you for your input. That is info I did not know.

There is an indication that the Maricopa Sheriff’s investigation was very thorough. More thorough than I can imagine would be necessary for a typical green horn Hilker death in the desert in the 1930’s.

There is an indication that several witnesses were interviewed several times over a period several months.

 

[Steve Jenkins]

While it may seem as though I picked about as controversial topic as possible for my first post, it is not my intention to merely stir the pot.

There are several things that I am having trouble processing. No matter how Ruth died and no matter where that happened, his remains were ultimately found quite a distance from his basecamp and not on a trail.

While his feet and presumably footware were not located with the rest of his remains, there is an indication that his hicking boots were located at his original basecamp.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Welcome to TreasureNET Steve!

As far as picking controversial topics...my advice is to stir the pot whenever possible...makes things interesting

You have certainly been paying attention re: Ruth, that's obvious from your post...and I've never seen the Maricopa Co. Sheriff's records that Matthew has...if he's ever made them public, I missed that part...

As far as Ruth's body being moved, I guess it's up to which story one believes...personally, I don't think Ruth's body was ever moved by Tex Barkley. Regarding the holes in his skull, I don't know but will go with the theory provided by the only Medical Doctor who actually ever examined the skull and then WROTE an opinion...Dr. Hrdlicka, who thought the holes were caused by a firearm...if any other doctor who examined the skull ever wrote an opinion on what happened, I haven't seen it...Ruth's death cert from Maricopa Co. states the cause of death as unknown, but that person never saw the skull as far as I know... Those are the only two opinions on Ruth's death that I've ever seen in writing by the doctors themselves...It's very possible that the Pinal Co. medical examiner got a look also, but I've not seen any documentation to back that up...but from newspaper reporting, it seems that Pinal Co. at least wanted to take a look at the case after Maricopa Co. punted...

Once again, welcome to T-Net, have fun and keep a thick skin...Best regards, Jim

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Thank you for your input Jim. It was helpful. It is unclear to me if Maricopa officials had access and did a thorough examination of the skull. I have heard both yea and nay.

A coroner report of unknown is not uncommon as it provides an option of revision with additional information over time with less legal issues at trial if the known facts change. Unknown is just that and a firm but wrong finding creates the potential for legal doubt.

Without the body being moved Maricopa never had any grounds for jurisdiction. It is unusual for any govemental body to spend time, energy, and money investigating a crime in somebody else’s jurisdiction. Many flat out murder cases do not get time, energy, or money that Maricopa put into this one. Hard to justify ever but this was during the depression and money was tight. Somebody felt they had grounds for spending county money on this investigation and they appeared to have put a great deal of effort and while I have not seen the full report it contained enough Sheriff to justify sealing the record. Many take this secrecy as a sign of corruption but it can easily be taken as an indication that they wanted to keep a lid on sensitive information because they felt it was necessary to increase their chances of a successful prosecution.

While it might seam reasonable and even probable that Ruth died of dehydration considering where he was, his age, time of year and so on, it requires a leap of faith to believe someone could determine that from the sack of bones they had to work with.

 

[Steve Jenkins]

The Apache Junction & Gold Canyon News did an article which was published on 1-23-2018 in which they stated that the skull was claimed by Dr Odds Halseth on the teams return to Phoenix and he shipped the skull to the National Museum of Anthropology in Washington DC. for assessment. It was reviewed by Dr Ales Hrdlicka and anthropologist and pathologist who tent a telegram to Dr. Halseth which stated “skull unquestionably that of an aged white man, recently shot possibly.”

Nobody in an official capacity in Maricopa ever had access to the skull according to this article. In 1978 Dr. Thomas Jarvis a forensic pathologist for Maricopa studied photos of the skull and concluded the shatter pattern did not “fit a bullet impact zone.” This conclusion does not necessarily support a death by natural causes regardless of how accurate it is or isn’t.

 

[devldog]

Welcome to the Tnet forum from Georgia.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The Apache Junction & Gold Canyon News did an article which was published on 1-23-2018 in which they stated that the skull was claimed by Dr Odds Halseth on the teams return to Phoenix and he shipped the skull to the National Museum of Anthropology in Washington DC. for assessment. It was reviewed by Dr Ales Hrdlicka and anthropologist and pathologist who tent a telegram to Dr. Halseth which stated “skull unquestionably that of an aged white man, recently shot possibly.”

Nobody in an official capacity in Maricopa ever had access to the skull according to this article. In 1978 Dr. Thomas Jarvis a forensic pathologist for Maricopa studied photos of the skull and concluded the shatter pattern did not “fit a bullet impact zone.” This conclusion does not necessarily support a death by natural causes regardless of how accurate it is or isn’t.

Steve, you're certainly hitting all the points that make the whole Ruth affair somewhat of an unsolvable mystery...as far as forensic pathologists and their conclusions about Ruth's skull, we have one...and only one...that ever handled the skull and wrote his conclusions down. Recently it's been discussed that Dr. Hrdlicka may not have had the level of forensic training (forensics was in its early stages, and Hrdlicka was a recognized expert of his time, basic as the field was back then) to deal specifically with bullet holes in the skull...I certainly think that's a sound argument...but not one I agree with...I'm inclined to give Hrdlicka's conclusions more weight than anything else I've seen. But that leaves the matter far from settled.

There are many on these forums that have meticulously researched the Ruth matter...I'm not one of them...many newspaper articles, letters, etc. exist on this subject and most have been posted here by those people...here's an article I ran across that I don't recall ever seeing on this or other forums...take care, Jim
View attachment 1628757

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Thank you Jim, that is news to me. I wonder if Pinal had more success than Maricopa in obtaining possession. I get the feeling that the family may not have trusted our local authorities which would have been a factor in how things played out. I also wonder if what remains the family did have had been buried by then.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi folks. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have been looking at the threads regarding Adolph Ruth and I am having some problems regarding a few details that confuse me. Please feel free to educate or correct me. I admit I am new to this and have thick skin.

The first detail is that I believe his remains were found along with essentially light duty shoes and that he had access to more suitable foot ware at his campsite.

Does it not seem reasonable that Adolph would not have been wandering far from his campsite without the best shoes for the job?

It is unclear to me where his base camp supplies were found in relationship to the reports of where his remains are ultimately discovered. I am not talking about where his base camp was alleged to be but where his supplies were located.

I accept that it is in dispute as to whether the body was moved from Pete’s Mesa to where it was ultimately found.

I am aware of the photo that was included in the Maricopa Sheriff’s report that had a handwritten notation on the back to the affect that the photo represented Ruth’s “final” base camp. This implies that there were at least two.

I have seen claims by those now knowledgeable in the local terrain than I, that this photo is more likely than not to be in the area of Pete’s Mesa. If this is true it would support the idea that there is more than one base.

It defies logic that Ruth would have been able to make the trip by foot from Pete’s Mesa to where his remains were ultimately found without proper footware.

Is anyone aware of whether or not there was supporting evidence for this claim? I am specifically wondering where his hiking boots were found?

If his proper hiking boots were not found on Pete’s Mesa and one supports the conclusion that the body was moved from there, it logically follows that Ruth could not have made the trip from his original basecamp to Pete’s Mesa in his camp shoes.

This would imply that the body may have been moved twice?

No matter whether one holds the view that the body was moved or not, the location where the proper footware was ultimately found in relation to where his remains were ultimately found seems to be a critical piece of key evidence whether one believes foul play was involved in Ruth’s death and whether or not the body was moved.

Thenkyou in advance for any help with respect to this issue.

Steve

Steve,

Welcome to TNet.

There is a lot of information of the subject of Adolph Ruth and it can be easily found using your search engine.

Here is just one conversation:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...ption-where-ruth-s-body-found-experiment.html

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Steve, you're certainly hitting all the points that make the whole Ruth affair somewhat of an unsolvable mystery...as far as forensic pathologists and their conclusions about Ruth's skull, we have one...and only one...that ever handled the skull and wrote his conclusions down. Recently it's been discussed that Dr. Hrdlicka may not have had the level of forensic training (forensics was in its early stages, and Hrdlicka was a recognized expert of his time, basic as the field was back then) to deal specifically with bullet holes in the skull...I certainly think that's a sound argument...but not one I agree with...I'm inclined to give Hrdlicka's conclusions more weight than anything else I've seen. But that leaves the matter far from settled.

There are many on these forums that have meticulously researched the Ruth matter...I'm not one of them...many newspaper articles, letters, etc. exist on this subject and most have been posted here by those people...here's an article I ran across that I don't recall ever seeing on this or other forums...take care, Jim
View attachment 1628757

Jim , both Ruth's skull and body were found in Pinal county . I believe they chosed Maricopa because Jeff Adams was friend of Tex and they were interested in the LDM lore . As you can see in the map the skull was found at the red circle and the body at the blue .

 

[Steve Jenkins]

Thank you Joe. I have reviewed most of what I could find in those posts and agree there is an incredible amount of info in them by folks who did a great deal of careful research.

The fact that Maricopa put so much effort into both the search and the investigation that followed supports the position that they were at least partially motivated by knowledge that they did not puplicly release at least for a period of fifty years.

I don’t see any jurisdictional basis without more contact with Maricopa. Of course without access to the files included in their investigation we can not be sure. Unfortunately those files are no longer available to review.

The few items that have made it to the public eye like the photo with the sheet being used for aerial guidance and its notations on the back lend support that they did have more and did not let on what they knew. It is my understanding that that photo has been identified
as having been taken on Peters Mesa. If Ruth did have a base camp or a camp at that location it would support the allegations of Glasser. I just can imagine why he would make such a claim about a person he presumably liked and admired unless it were true. It might also partially explain why he spent so much time prospecting in that very same vacinity.

If that identification of this second camp is correct it seems more likely than not that Ruth received assistance to get there and who provided that assistance has not been publicly identified to my knowledge. I don’t think any reasonable person could be sold on the idea Ruth made it that far from his original camp without help.

I do believe Ruth was a great deal tougher and more determined than most are willing to credit. He is or was human, though.

That second camp would also provide jurisdiction for Maricopa and their actions support
the idea that they were motivated by more than the idea of being a good neighbor to Pinal County.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Welcome to the forum Steve! Great people here!