Evidence supporting the theory that the LDM is North and not east. - Page 2
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Thread: Evidence supporting the theory that the LDM is North and not east.

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  1. #16

    Jan 2014
    1,901
    3540 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    You reminded me that I have a lot of work to do transcribing Greg's interview with Garman - I need to get back on that!!!

    Looking forward to that.

  2. #17
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Steve,

    The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.
    This is and always will be the main reason why I have discounted the Sears-Kay area all these years. I am not sold on this area myself but I am very familiar with the area and the rumors and why. I live minutes from here, know owners of ex mine property in the area personally, and give Jeep tours in the area for a living. During those tours I have never promoted this area as a possible site for the LDM but have pointed out most of the things I will photograph in the next few days without mentioning their relationship to the LDM.

    Mining was going strong by the time the location became a town in 1870. The town came about as a result of mining and ranching came about to support the miners. The Old Military road runs through the area and part of the motivation for the new military road was to provide easy access to the area to support the locals from Apache attacks which were common. Both roads feature prominently in this account.

    This area did not have a dozen mines, it had hundreds of small mines and the population of the area grew so fast that it rivaled and at times expeeded that of Phoenix all because of mining.

    This area is just a little over half the distance from Waltz’s place in Phoenix compared to the Supers. When he returned from his trips he was known to return from the North and run the length of Central st which lines up almost perfectly with Cave Creek road aka the new military road. If one researches Military roads in through the Supers you wont find much because the military did not regularly conduct operations through them. They may have ventured into the area on specific occasions for specific reasons but not enough to call the path they took the military road.

    This area was “the”area for gold mining when Waltz was alive and everybody interested in gold in Phoenix at that time knew it.

    None of us knows exactly what Waltz told Julia et al, his sick he was at the time, or what his motivation was. We only assume we know. Same for what he told Dick Holmes.

    I have said this already but most of the knowledge we think we have has come from well researched books many of which were writtten close to a century after the fact. Waltz did not write a book. He did not draw a map. Those all came later. What Waltz did do is leave a series of clues all of which could be scrathed out on a bar napkin.

    One might ask how all those book pages could evolve from that? Much of those pages are based on things that came after the fact as a result of unsuccessful searches.

    Most of today’s experts know that Jim Bark bought the ranch through which most of the Dutch hunters passsed through over the years to search for the LDM and later that ranch was owned by Tex Barkley. Jim was a serious Dutch hunter and he covered his bases in both areas. He gave up searching in both and moved to California in the early 1900’s.

    I don’t know why he considered the Cave Creek area such a string possibility but the evidence suggests that he did. His ear was much closer to the ground at a time when the trail was still fresh than any of us including those of us that have written books.

    One last thought before I quit blabbering. I know you can not convince an atheist about god on the internet, or swing a voter left or right. I am not trying to do that. I am trying to educate those who do not know about the fact that many of Waltz’s contemporaries looked north and not east both before and after he left his clues. Many of those clues reinforced that choice and not excluded it. In my opinion this information is worthy of knowing. Many or most may disagree. I knew that when I started the post. This post is for those that might want to know what is out there. It is not a religious crusade, at least not for me. I am aware of the strengths and weaknesses of both arguments. Most are not though because the bases of their knowledge comes from books that don’t have this information.

  3. #18
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,558
    1260 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by sgtfda View Post
    Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
    For what it's worth.
    Interesting,

    Waltz tells two people away to get there using a wagon or buggy, Julia used one and I believe they said it was because she was a woman with little experience, Or the hole trip could mostly be done easily and Waltz never ventured to far into the range.

    Babymick1

  4. #19
    gr
    Oct 2012
    3,251
    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Steve Jenkins

    You wrote in your first post :
    "
    5- one of the clues left by Waltz was Black Mesa. While the Supers has a Black Mesa the Cave Creek area also had a Mesa called Black Mesa, both then and now.

    6- Waltz spoke of the Needle not Weavers Needle. Pinacle Road is called that because of Pinacle Peak. Pinacle Peak is in plane view over long parts of the Old Military road, the new military road and the hill on which the Sears Kay Ruin sits on. Back in the day Pinacle Peak was called “Miners Needle.”

    7- Waltz spoke of a “Thunder God” an archeological structure worshiped by the Apache. The most prominent object one sees as they approach the trail leading to the Sears-Kay ruin is an unusual and large stone object that looks like the head or a great warrior. It was revered by the Apache.

    8- Waltz spoke of a Spanish arastra. There is or was remains of an old arastra on what was once Sears- Kay property. "

    Can you tell us what are the sources for those Waltz's clues ?
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  5. #20
    gr
    Oct 2012
    3,251
    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    A crop of a real pic which shows the Native warrior head close to the LDM site . There are two stone heads/profiles on that mountain . The Native Indian warrior head and the Perfil mapa head , which are " looking " at each other from about 100 yards away . When you see the one , can't see the other . These two clues were used separately in different stories , and sometimes were confused . Are like the Waltz's clues for the LDM . Waltz gave clues for two different mines which are on the same mountainside . The most were for the LDM placer with tunnel below and the other for the incline shaft "quartz " mine .

    Name:  Indian warrior profile.jpg
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    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  6. #21
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I did manage to get out to the Sears-Kay area today to take some photos relevant to this post. Things did not go completely according to plan. I got a late start because I was hesitant to go because my back was bothering me. Despite that I did go but got a late start. As a result it was hot enough that my cell phone overheated and died before I made it to the area I really wanted to take photos form. With that in mind here are a few that are relevant.

    These two photos represent Weavers Needle which is shown in the hazier of the two photos. In the clearer of the two photos is Pinacle Peak which was known as “Miners Needle”when Jacob Waltz was alive.

    Both photos were taken seconds from each other an in the same exact spot only I rotated about 10 degrees from the first photo to take the second image.

  7. #22
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    This is Weavers Needle taken along the trail to the Sears Kay Ruin. For some reason the image of Miners Needle did not load so I will repost it.

  8. #23
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is what Pinicle Peak looks like from the same location as the image of Weavers Needle. It can be seen for significant portions of the valley and in particular for much of the distance along the Old Military road between Fort Mcdowel and the Sears-Kay Ranch. It was well known in Jacob Waltz’s day particularly amoung miners and was renamed as Weavers Needle became more popular, ironically because of the popularity of the Lost Dutchman Legend.
    markmar and 393stroker like this.

  9. #24
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a photo of Four Peaks again with my feet in the same position as the previous two photos I just rotated my body a few degrees. Often these views are much clearer but it was hazy today an I could not help that.


    Steve
    markmar and 393stroker like this.

  10. #25
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is Warrior Head as refered to in a previous post on this thread. While this is not the ideal angle to view it, it strongly resembles the head of a great warrior from some angles. It was a revered geological formation for the Apache and in fact this entire area was considered sacred.

    This formation of rock is associated with the Thunder God which is one of the Waltz Clues.

    This photo was also taken from the same spot as the other three photos and again I just roatated to take the photo.

    Steve
    markmar and 393stroker like this.

  11. #26
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This photo depicts the top of the hill at the Sears-Kay Indian ruin. It is where I was heading when my phone overheated and stopped working. If you look closely you an see a rock wall like structure that was part of the Hohokom Ruin that is located there. I tried waiting for my phone to cool but with Black jeans and standing in the hit sun even putting into my pocket did not cool it enough to function and I gave up. This is not the first time my phone has overheated. It has happened several times for some reason on this hill. In hot weather I seem to get off about ten shots which I did today.

    Had it been working when I reached the top i could have and would have been able to photograph the area of the Sears-Kay ranch house and the Camp Creek was which runs right in front of it. If one were to continue along the wash you would come to the Sombrero Rock I posted earlier in this thread. While it is a decent hike it is walking distance from the ranch house. Without moving I could have photographed many things relative to this thread which have not been covered yet.

    I will try to make it back there in the next few days.

    Steve
    393stroker and Ryano like this.

  12. #27
    gr
    Oct 2012
    3,251
    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Matthew Roberts had a ranch in Cave Creek region .
    I believe he could make some imputs about your " Thunder God " boulder from your pic and the other landmarks and mines which you have mentioned here .
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  13. #28
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    While I never met Mathew, as he was gone before I arrived I am aware of who he is. He once had a ranch between Spur Cross and Schoolhouse Road. The first house I stayed at in town was in this same area. I also looked at a house in exactly the same area of his ranch, perhaps it was on property that was formerly part of his ranch. When he lived here there where few houses along Flemming Springs. That is no longer the case. There were several mines located at one end of Fleming Springs and they shared a stamp mill which has since been moved to the town Museum.

    The hills surrounding the area where he lived was full of mines a hundred or so years ago. The immediate area surrounding his ranch was once full of shabby shacks where miners lived.

    I would love to hear what he has to say on the subject. I have not seen any posts by him since I joined.

    Steve

  14. #29
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2017
    610
    1770 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Thanks for the pictures, Steve...I spent a lot of my boyhood out there with those very mountains on the horizon...brings back happy memories...is the steakhouse still up on Pinnacle Peak, and do they still cut your tie off if you wear one in there?

  15. #30
    ink
    ink is offline

    Mar 2018
    158
    49 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Gees I can not believe I spent time reading this B.S.

 

 
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