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Thread: Now that the stone maps are out of the way, no movie/series....whats next?

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  1. #106

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    deducer,

    I hear you, and what it seems to me is that Aileen didn't give a rat's patootie about the stones. She may have mentioned it to some of her friend, or family, but maybe didn't get questioned by those who had an interest in them if they could just question Travis. Most women don't have the same interest as their husbands. They just know he has a lot of "stuff" in his shop, or can't tell the difference from a shotgun, and a rifle in her husbands collection. Had she owned a cell phone back then, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that she would just have a ton of selfies as she waited in the car.
    Heck I have a hat rack from a 14 pointer, and my wife keeps telling me to cut off the drop tine so it won't look as bad.
    Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.
    coazon de oro and Dirt1955 like this.

  2. #107
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,332
    2681 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.
    Howdy deducer,

    I seriously doubt that an interview with Aileen would have settled anything for you if Travis's word was not good enough for you. How sure are you that Peck, Magill, or any other "solid" investigator didn't ask Aileen that question? Maybe her answer was not worth printing, but that is not what proves the PSM's to be real, they speak for themselves. What is costing you, and others a gold mine, is the failure to understand them, and to understand Waltz's directions.

    Homar

  3. #108
    ca
    May 2007
    3,339
    4176 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    IMO , the words are very ancient , before Hohokam , but the story with the bowls is more recent . The Snake was Hohokam's idol and after became name ( Coatl ) of the Aztec religious leaders .
    The picture wth the Chicomostoc cave , amost " tells " where is located the cave .
    There is something else I've seen, which may have inspired that "entrance/exit" in itself.....perhaps a "shrine" of some kind.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF1294 shrine.jpg 
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    And another view nearby, which could give rise to possible "connections" between some of the legends and the actual history from which they were drawn.

    Part way up a steep, rough and brushy ravine.....

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	3 MEUS.jpg 
Views:	75 
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ID:	1669446

    Odd that this heart would exhibit both a hooked and dotted line as well as evidence of a crack across it's left lobe, is it not ?
    With a pit or sink hole almost directly across the gully from it.....and a circle of stones ?
    And if the object which I have outlined should turn out to be a reclining figure holding a bowl on it's mid section, that would be remarkable.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cave of Chicomoztoc in the Duran Codex.jpg 
Views:	37 
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ID:	1669455

    Insofar as the Duran codex illustration might be an accurate depiction of the landscape which could be seen from the departure point,
    the distant horizon and mountains suggest a high place above a large valley setting. Other than that, I don't see anything in particular which would put a pin on a modern map.

    However, this particular departure, with it's portrayal of two male figures carrying "sacred bundles" and the "female warrior" (Itzpaplotl) must be based on the journey and subsequent events also related via the Codex "Mapa de Quantinchan 2"......

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1669454

    Itzpaplotl....(Flint or Obsidian Butterfly)
    Name:  image.Itzpapalotl-Cuauhtinchan.jpg
Views: 254
Size:  47.3 KB
    Click image for larger version. 

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    BTW... The "shrine" in the first photo is located within the crevice just above the middle of the arrow.
    Last edited by somehiker; Jan 09, 2019 at 04:14 AM.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  4. #109

    Jan 2014
    1,592
    2953 times
    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Howdy deducer,

    I seriously doubt that an interview with Aileen would have settled anything for you if Travis's word was not good enough for you. How sure are you that Peck, Magill, or any other "solid" investigator didn't ask Aileen that question? Maybe her answer was not worth printing, but that is not what proves the PSM's to be real, they speak for themselves. What is costing you, and others a gold mine, is the failure to understand them, and to understand Waltz's directions.

    Homar
    I have not been able to locate any substantial interviews done by any of those Tumlinson era researchers as far as Aileen or Janine, that's on paper. Maybe I missed something, somewhere.

    My questioning the "discovery" of the Stone Maps does not mean I am questioning their provenance. I know from having been privileged to first-hand experiences, that they are for real.

    Doesn't it also strike you as being too coincidental that Travis was interested in stone-carving at an early age, then by happenstance finds carved Stone Maps later on in adult life? Methinks the cart was ahead of the horse in this "tale." As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."
    alan m and coazon de oro like this.

  5. #110
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
    320
    430 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."
    There is the key to understanding the whole story of the PSMís and why Travis was so obsessed with them.
    coazon de oro likes this.
    Some books are dangerous, not to be opened with impunity.
    Not everything that can be counted, counts
    Not everything that counts, can be counted

  6. #111
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,332
    2681 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    I have not been able to locate any substantial interviews done by any of those Tumlinson era researchers as far as Aileen or Janine, that's on paper. Maybe I missed something, somewhere.

    My questioning the "discovery" of the Stone Maps does not mean I am questioning their provenance. I know from having been privileged to first-hand experiences, that they are for real.

    Doesn't it also strike you as being too coincidental that Travis was interested in stone-carving at an early age, then by happenstance finds carved Stone Maps later on in adult life? Methinks the cart was ahead of the horse in this "tale." As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."
    Howdy deducer,

    The PSM's provenance validates their discovery story. The fact that Travis was incapable of carving them because of his ignorance of the Spanish language, and the fact that he was incapable of having buried them so precisely as I showed you a long time ago, also support the story of their discovery.
    Travis lived in an area which had a lot of sandstone, in an era when kids played outside all the time. He was not the only one carving on those rocks in his area, so it does not really mean he had an interest in stone-carving, and it doesn't make it a questionable coincidence in my eyes.
    Travis's story of his discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it. Grace and Mitch were wrong to assume that Travis's Grandfather "Pegleg" Tumlinson knew anything about those stones. J. Frank Dobie spent a lot of time with Pegleg as Dobie gathered treasure stories for his books, and no stone map treasure story ever came out of that.

    Homar
    markmar likes this.

  7. #112
    ca
    May 2007
    3,339
    4176 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.
    A timeline problem, rather than failure of due diligence.
    Alleen Tumlinson passed away July 11,1963 and it's unlikely that her adoptive parents would allowed Janie to be interviewed by Peck, his partners, or anyone else just one year after her mother's death.

    Regards: Wayne
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  8. #113

    Jan 2014
    1,592
    2953 times
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    A timeline problem, rather than failure of due diligence.
    Alleen Tumlinson passed away July 11,1963 and it's unlikely that her adoptive parents would allowed Janie to be interviewed by Peck, his partners, or anyone else just one year after her mother's death.

    Regards: Wayne
    While Peck's efforts as far as his dedication (i.e., physical and monetary) towards solving the Stone Maps did peak during the '60's, and the bulk of Gary Cundiff's collection on his website are from this era, we should not forget that Peck only moved to Phoenix in 1971 and lived there until 1979, semi-retiring in 1987 in Mesa and later in Gold Canyon, and fully retired in 1995 when he devoted all his time to his search. Janie was alive at this time, and either he and/or other serious researchers would have had the opportunity to ask her to recount, rather than merely vouch for the authenticity of what happened. Although she would have been only around 10 at the time, that's not outside the realms of being able to recount what happened, to a satisfactory extent.
    coazon de oro likes this.

  9. #114

    Jan 2014
    1,592
    2953 times
    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Howdy deducer,

    The PSM's provenance validates their discovery story. The fact that Travis was incapable of carving them because of his ignorance of the Spanish language, and the fact that he was incapable of having buried them so precisely as I showed you a long time ago, also support the story of their discovery.
    Travis lived in an area which had a lot of sandstone, in an era when kids played outside all the time. He was not the only one carving on those rocks in his area, so it does not really mean he had an interest in stone-carving, and it doesn't make it a questionable coincidence in my eyes.
    Travis's story of his discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it. Grace and Mitch were wrong to assume that Travis's Grandfather "Pegleg" Tumlinson knew anything about those stones. J. Frank Dobie spent a lot of time with Pegleg as Dobie gathered treasure stories for his books, and no stone map treasure story ever came out of that.

    Homar

    Homar,

    Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

    What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

    You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

    I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

    Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.
    alan m, coazon de oro and sdcfia like this.

  10. #115
    gr
    Oct 2012
    2,988
    4552 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    There is something else I've seen, which may have inspired that "entrance/exit" in itself.....perhaps a "shrine" of some kind.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF1294 shrine.jpg 
Views:	75 
Size:	207.5 KB 
ID:	1669441

    And another view nearby, which could give rise to possible "connections" between some of the legends and the actual history from which they were drawn.

    Part way up a steep, rough and brushy ravine.....

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	3 MEUS.jpg 
Views:	75 
Size:	269.3 KB 
ID:	1669446

    Odd that this heart would exhibit both a hooked and dotted line as well as evidence of a crack across it's left lobe, is it not ?
    With a pit or sink hole almost directly across the gully from it.....and a circle of stones ?
    And if the object which I have outlined should turn out to be a reclining figure holding a bowl on it's mid section, that would be remarkable.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cave of Chicomoztoc in the Duran Codex.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	343.3 KB 
ID:	1669455

    Insofar as the Duran codex illustration might be an accurate depiction of the landscape which could be seen from the departure point,
    the distant horizon and mountains suggest a high place above a large valley setting. Other than that, I don't see anything in particular which would put a pin on a modern map.

    However, this particular departure, with it's portrayal of two male figures carrying "sacred bundles" and the "female warrior" (Itzpaplotl) must be based on the journey and subsequent events also related via the Codex "Mapa de Quantinchan 2"......

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	foto3.jpg 
Views:	27 
Size:	48.6 KB 
ID:	1669454

    Itzpaplotl....(Flint or Obsidian Butterfly)
    Name:  image.Itzpapalotl-Cuauhtinchan.jpg
Views: 254
Size:  47.3 KB
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF1289  Itzpapalotl 2.jpg 
Views:	58 
Size:	231.9 KB 
ID:	1669457

    BTW... The "shrine" in the first photo is located within the crevice just above the middle of the arrow.
    In the Chicomostoc pic , I was talking about the mouth of the mountain lion ( not jaguar ) which has the shape of the last part of the trail from the stone map .
    Don't forget Injunbro ( tnet member ) wrote how he and his party did a ceremony at the sacred cave in the Supers , which supposed to be the cave from where the ancient people came out when they stopped to be cave dwellers .
    Marius

    There are many doors in and out of the mnts,but none so hidden as the ones in front of you.
    Do you possess the knowledge of the spirit to let you enter them? NP

    If your true to your heart,you will never go wrong.The truth is the truth,no matter how you look at it,and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth . It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  11. #116
    ca
    May 2007
    3,339
    4176 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    While Peck's efforts as far as his dedication (i.e., physical and monetary) towards solving the Stone Maps did peak during the '60's, and the bulk of Gary Cundiff's collection on his website are from this era, we should not forget that Peck only moved to Phoenix in 1971 and lived there until 1979, semi-retiring in 1987 in Mesa and later in Gold Canyon, and fully retired in 1995 when he devoted all his time to his search. Janie was alive at this time, and either he and/or other serious researchers would have had the opportunity to ask her to recount, rather than merely vouch for the authenticity of what happened. Although she would have been only around 10 at the time, that's not outside the realms of being able to recount what happened, to a satisfactory extent.
    Alice Jane was born in 1953, so I'm not sure what she could have remembered about the circumstances surrounding Travis' actions prior to say, 1960.
    And even at 10, I doubt the family would have permitted any contact whatsoever. And from '53 till at least '58, it's also unlikely she would have seen anything away from wherever Travis and Alleen and herself may have stayed while in the mountains.
    coazon de oro likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  12. #117

    Jan 2014
    1,592
    2953 times
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Alice Jane was born in 1953, so I'm not sure what she could have remembered about the circumstances surrounding Travis' actions prior to say, 1960.
    And even at 10, I doubt the family would have permitted any contact whatsoever. And from '53 till at least '58, it's also unlikely she would have seen anything away from wherever Travis and Alleen and herself may have stayed while in the mountains.
    These are all valid points. I still would have asked her, even as an adult, about what happened that day or what she knew of what happened on that day. As you and all other parents know- it's never a good thing to underestimate a child's ability to decipher any adult conversation they overhear or are in the presence of. And over the years, she had probably picked up quite a bit of information.

  13. #118
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,322
    1096 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    These are all valid points. I still would have asked her, even as an adult, about what happened that day or what she knew of what happened on that day. As you and all other parents know- it's never a good thing to underestimate a child's ability to decipher any adult conversation they overhear or are in the presence of. And over the years, she had probably picked up quite a bit of information.
    She would of said, Her dad found them as he said. Ask Gollum he talked to her. Or ask RG, ohh
    wait the sidewinder never new her or even the Family.

    Wrmickel1
    coazon de oro and somehiker like this.

  14. #119
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,332
    2681 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Homar,

    Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

    What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

    You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

    I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

    Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.
    Howdy deducer,

    The secrecy may just be a gag order, but I doubt that Peg Leg left them anything related to the PSM's. The idea that he did was born from assumptions. As I told you before Travis's discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it, and for some reason most people tend to believe those assumptions rather than ignore them, it's easier I guess. When it was found that Peg Leg Tumlinson was Travis's Grandfather, and a former treasurer hunter that had several treasure maps, it was assumed that there was a connection there.

    Travis's Uncle, Robert Tumlinson, also planted that idea into Robert Garman as he swindled him as R.G. put it. You may remember R. T.'s letter to R. G., telling him he has some stone maps. Garman ended up with a map he thought was a Peg Leg map, and used it to search for 25 years. That map was the Peralta Tesora Mappa that has Robert Tumlinson's writing all over it, it is not a Peralta map.

    Azmula claimed that the PSM's came from a church in Arizpe, Sonora, and that Peg Leg brought them to Arizona. Even Larry Webb believed Don Shades story that Peg Leg had come to Arizona with 500 Mexicans to look for a Spanish treasure. This all came from Ray Howland's claim of finding Peg Leg's diary of that expedition, but it turns out that Peg Leg was illiterate, go figure.

    Tom K. also fell for a story that a Mexican bracero while building a fence for John Hart, found the PSM's, and sold them to Robert Tumlinson in Florence for ten dollars. Then R. G. comes around, gathers all these stories, and forms his own. The bulk of what he found was Travis, and his Uncles ideas as to where the PSM's led, they are not blueprints. R.G. also claimed Travis bought some smaller stone maps from Charlie Miller. I have no doubt that Charlie may have swindled Travis since Charlie's find of some stone maps, after Travis's discovery, and Charlie's find of Ruth's map, and the rifle that killed Ruth is a very questionable coincidence. R.G. also claimed Travis never touched the PSM's in the museum, yet he uses these maps, instead of the small ones he claimed Travis bought to show where his 1847 site was emptied, and where the end of the trail should be.

    You had once asked me to prove what I was posting, at that time some were saying Travis made, and buried the stone maps. So I pm'ed you showing you how precisely the PSM's had been buried, making it impossible for Travis to have done it, and also impossible for any Jesuit to have placed them there.

    On Travis's carving on sandstone, in those days, all kids played outside, and carved on sandstone, not just Travis. On Garry's visit there, he was shown a dirt road that had about 150 yards of exposed sandstone with names from the whole neighborhood. It was conclusive for Garry, as it is for me.

    Homar

  15. #120
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,483
    6301 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Homar,

    Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

    What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

    You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

    I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

    Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.
    In my humble opinion, the number one aspect of interest and the one most worthy of pursuing in this saga is Pegleg Tumlinson. All other angles, carved rocks, and players in the drama are merely derivatives, steeped in layers of disinformation. Dobie was a great folklorist, not a detective, and was more interested in a good campfire story, with the facts being secondary to his purpose. Pegleg may have enjoyed the attention Dobie gave him, but you can bet the farm he revealed nothing of importance to the writer. Human nature demands it.
    UncleMatt, deducer, alan m and 2 others like this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

 

 
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