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  1. #16
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Clay at Jim Hatt's cave. Photo taken about 1995-96.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Tortilla Ranch underlined in red on the right.
    Petrasch's camp marked in red in center of map.
    Jim's cave marked in red directly north of Petrasch's camp.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Clay resting in Petrasch's camp on Tortilla Mountain.

  2. #17
    us
    Nov 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by 393stroker View Post
    That drawing looks like a match to me. And German coins found too! Wooee!
    The drawing sure, but why the German coins, something not right about that, Waltz was in America for years, mining gold yet he carries German coins with him years later. I just can't believe that at all.

    wrmickel1

  3. #18
    us
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    I do not think Jim Hatt's cave was Waltz's two room house or was near Waltz's mine but since I don't know where the mine is myself, I never rule out completely anyone else's ideas. I just put more weight in some areas than others.

    I think Jim had some kind of information when he came to look for the mine and it most probably came from his grandfather who probably got it somehow from Gottfreid and Herman Petrasch.
    Gottfreid Petrasch had that camp for over ten years and anyone using it that long had to have explored up and down every canyon in that camps vicinity. I know I would have.
    Gottfried must have went down Hatt's canyon and found the cave and two rooms and the rock landmark and German coins and decided it must be have been Waltz who was there.
    Gottfreid was a miner and prospector and knew how to find gold. I can't believe it took him very long to find some coarse placer gold in that canyon and that would have been enough to keep him looking there.
    Maybe Gottfreid wrote Hatt's grandfather and told him about the camp and canyon and cave.
    When I first met him, what Jim wanted to find most was Petrasch's camp. It seemed like once he knew where that was he had information to lead him to the right canyon.
    Jim was not good with geology or identifying rocks, he knew gold if there was a big enough lump of it but to know what type of rock held gold he was lost. That was Jim's biggest handicap.
    I always wanted to start down at Tortilla creek and prospect all the way up the canyon to Jim's cave but never got around to it.

    Matthew

  4. #19
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    cactusjumper,

    Yes I agree completely with that. My interest with Hatt's cave was more concerning the geology of the area and one thing in particular that stuck out.

    About 50 feet down canyon and on the same side of the canyon as Hatt's cave was a rock landmark with a hole in it.
    A drawing on a piece of paper of that rock with the hole was attributed to Rhiney Petrasch allegedly he got it from Waltz as a clue to his mine or cache.
    This paper drawing appeared in a couple Dutchman books, I believe it might have been in Helen Corbin's Curse of the Dutchman's Gold.
    I am not sure about the origin of the drawing but Al Reser knew of the drawing from his earliest days of hunting the mine and he had a copy of it in his files.

    Here is Al's copy and a photo of the rock next to Hatt's cave.

    Attachment 1672111 Attachment 1672112

    Hatt's cave did fit Waltz's description of his, "two room house under a shelving rock" as told to Holmes on his deathbed. Clay Worst uses that term to describe Waltz's house in his Dutchman lectures at the SMHS Museum each year.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Hi Matthew

    With this drawing , we can see a secret clue which Waltz told to Rhinehard and Julia and is attached to the mine site .
    Of course , IMO , Al's paper of the drawing is only an adapted by the Petrash brothers drawing , to fits with the landmark from their area of interest . Not to say how their drawing is more different with the real one , but keep the most standards and concept .
    The real landmark , IMO , is more flat on its top and more bigger . Is attached also on one side to the mountain and the hole is large enough for a person to can pass though it with not difficulty . Is the same hole described in many stories , which someone have to pass though to reach the mine/s . Is the same hole in the mountain from the German clues .

    Here is the landmark , and the black point at the miidle left is the hole .

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by markmar; Jan 21, 2019 at 10:27 AM.
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    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  5. #20
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    Chuck Chatsko

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    I captured this photo of a hole in the side of the mountain on Frog Tanks Trail in between the cave and the spire . Hard to see but it`s on the left side of the tree.Click image for larger version. 

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    coazon de oro and Oroblanco like this.
    Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

  6. #21
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
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    There are more holes in rock within those mountains than all the swiss cheese in Switzerland.
    point is this, one matched clue or landmark has not been indicative of the mines location, so either there is some locations which have not seen the footsteps of man since Waltz, which is highly unlikely, or some, if not most, of his clues are bogus.
    you choose
    time for another drink

  7. #22
    us
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    I'll say not all, but most were added by the wounderful flair of novelists
    gotta make the book interesting, Personality I think some are missing held by a few that we will never know.

    Wrmickel1
    alan m and coazon de oro like this.

  8. #23
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good afternoon Matthew: Thank you for sharing that story about Jim Hatt's Cave. Had you ever been down in that particular canyon before you were asked by Jim to join you on the trip? I have heard or read stories about the Mexican Miners having had a mining site somewhere on Tortilla Mountain but never put much thought into the matter, however your find seems to shed new light on the story. Are there any other sights, formations, clues etc. to be found in that canyon or surrounding areas that your have located which you can share with us at this time? One last thing. That canyon seems to be a very rough and overgrown canyon. Did you find any signs of a trail leading through it, or to it, or to a possible miner's camp site? Sure glad to see you posting again. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  9. #24
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    cactusjumper,

    Yes I agree completely with that. My interest with Hatt's cave was more concerning the geology of the area and one thing in particular that stuck out.

    About 50 feet down canyon and on the same side of the canyon as Hatt's cave was a rock landmark with a hole in it.
    A drawing on a piece of paper of that rock with the hole was attributed to Rhiney Petrasch allegedly he got it from Waltz as a clue to his mine or cache.
    This paper drawing appeared in a couple Dutchman books, I believe it might have been in Helen Corbin's Curse of the Dutchman's Gold.
    I am not sure about the origin of the drawing but Al Reser knew of the drawing from his earliest days of hunting the mine and he had a copy of it in his files.

    Here is Al's copy and a photo of the rock next to Hatt's cave.

    Attachment 1672111 Attachment 1672112

    Hatt's cave did fit Waltz's description of his, "two room house under a shelving rock" as told to Holmes on his deathbed. Clay Worst uses that term to describe Waltz's house in his Dutchman lectures at the SMHS Museum each year.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Well I sure woundn't write this off. I'd go back with the Stone Crosses, That window rock pic looks a lot like the one on the Stone Crosses And they were claimed to of been found in The tortilla Area.

    Wrmickel1
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  10. #25
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good afternoon Matthew: Thank you for sharing that story about Jim Hatt's Cave. Had you ever been down in that particular canyon before you were asked by Jim to join you on the trip? I have heard or read stories about the Mexican Miners having had a mining site somewhere on Tortilla Mountain but never put much thought into the matter, however your find seems to shed new light on the story. Are there any other sights, formations, clues etc. to be found in that canyon or surrounding areas that your have located which you can share with us at this time? One last thing. That canyon seems to be a very rough and overgrown canyon. Did you find any signs of a trail leading through it, or to it, or to a possible miner's camp site? Sure glad to see you posting again. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

    Hello Greg,

    Glad to hear from you and good to see you posting.

    I had been to Petrasch's camp on a couple of occasions prior to Jim Hatt taking me down canyon to his cave but had never been that far down the canyon previously.
    I had explored the canyon running out of Petrasch's camp to the west that goes down into Peters canyon on the west side of Tortilla Mountain and found a little evidence of prospecting in that canyon.
    You are absolutely correct, Hatt's cave canyon closes up on you about half-way down and becomes a tangle of trees and brush, the canyon becomes very narrow at one point. I did notice an old trail or at least scattered remnants of a trail going down Hatt's canyon that looked as if it would continue on down into Tortilla creek. The trail being so old however it was only still visible in a few places and thick brush had overgrown it. Someone had used that canyon in the past.
    When the cattle were still in there (up until 1982) they would cut trails up and down some of the canyons on Tortilla Mountain but Hatt's canyon seemed too rough and narrow for cows to have used as they had a much better route to bypass Hatt's canyon to get to Tortilla and Peters creeks.

    I know for a fact the Petrasch's prospected mined in the vicinity of Petrasch's camp at the head of Indian Springs Canyon because I saw their prospects and saw their mining tool cache nearby their camp with tools still in it.

    All the Best !

    Matthew

  11. #26
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    This is for those interested in the history of Tortilla Mountain and the place names and how those names came to be.

    Gottfreid Petrasch came back to Phoenix Arizona in 1892 to search for Jacob Waltz's mine with his son's Herman and Rhinehart and Julia Thomas.
    After several searches Gottfreid supported himself by doing odd jobs at the Bark-Criswell ranch in the Superstition Mountains.
    Both Gottfreid and Hermann improved water sources for Bark-Criswell cattle all over the ranch grazing area.
    Gottfreid established a camp at the head of Indian Springs canyon in a grassy saddle high up on Tortilla Mountain.

    Gottfreid was known as "Old Pete" to everyone who knew him.

    Peters Canyon, Peters creek, Pete's camp and Peters Mesa are all named for Gottfreid Petrasch, ("Old Pete").

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Gottfreid Petrasch camp marked near the center of the map, Jim Hatts cave marked to the north of the camp.

    Matthew

  12. #27
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good afternoon Matthew: You were talking about exploring the canyon at one time to the West of Petrasch Camp. Is that the canyon referred to by some as Old Cottonwood canyon? I had some friends who recently try to hike down that canyon and never made it all of the way due to the heavy brush. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  13. #28
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good afternoon Matthew: You were talking about exploring the canyon at one time to the West of Petrasch Camp. Is that the canyon referred to by some as Old Cottonwood canyon? I had some friends who recently try to hike down that canyon and never made it all of the way due to the heavy brush. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Hello Greg,

    Yes, the canyon that I referred to going west from Petrasch's camp is the real Cottonwood Canyon, sometime referred to as "old Cottonwood."
    This canyon was misplaced by the Forest Service when topo maps were upgraded. Someone who didn't have the right information mis-marked several canyons in the Superstitions and Cottonwood was one of them.
    The Cottonwood Canyon that appears on today's topo map is one canyon south of the real Cottonwood Canyon.
    Old Cottonwood had a huge cottonwood tree close to where it met with Peters canyon. There was an Indian ruin there and a seep that flowed most of the year around. That seep today hardly flows at all anymore except in very rainy periods.

    Old Cottonwood has it's head up on Tortilla Mountain at Petrasch's camp. It's mouth ends up in Peters Canyon down below and on the west side of Tortilla Mountain.
    Old Cottonwood is a long canyon and yes it is very brushy for the first half mile or so from Petrasch's camp. I have been up and down that canyon but that was many years ago and today with the growth of brush being unchecked by cattle, I am not surprised someone could not make it all the way through. Very rough country back there, far off the established trails and water only if you know where to find it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Old Cottonwood Canyon.jpg 
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    Old Cottonwood Canyon marked in Blue. Petrasch's camp marked in Red.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; Jan 23, 2019 at 02:07 PM.

  14. #29
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    Does anyone know or would anyone be willing to share the dates of the coins Jim Hatt found? I thought I had seen that information at one time but can't seem to locate it so it may have been my imagination.

    I did find a discussion on another forum where someone who claimed to have been friends with Jim (and supposedly spent some time working with Jim in the mountains) said the dates and conditions of the coins made it more likely they had been left there by one of the Petrasch's.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Does anyone know or would anyone be willing to share the dates of the coins Jim Hatt found? I thought I had seen that information at one time but can't seem to locate it so it may have been my imagination.

    I did find a discussion on another forum where someone who claimed to have been friends with Jim (and supposedly spent some time working with Jim in the mountains) said the dates and conditions of the coins made it more likely they had been left there by one of the Petrasch's.

    Cubfan64,

    Glad to see you posting Cubfan. I have a photo of those coins front and back but they may be back with some of my things in Phoenix. I think Greg may have a copy of that same photo so he might post it if he does.
    You may be right about those coins belonging to one of the Petrasch's, probably Gottfreid.
    Also, a man named Zweiner came out to Phoenix and helped old Pete Petrasch for a while, this man was related to the Petrasch's and allegedly had come from Germany recently.

    Matthew

 

 
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