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Thread: Where are the heart carvings?

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  1. #16
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    deducer,

    Do you have any evidence the large carvings ( Heart and others ) which appear on the hillsides were made prior to December 1965 ?

    Best,

    Matthew
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  2. #17

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    deducer,

    Do you have any evidence the large carvings ( Heart and others ) which appear on the hillsides were made prior to December 1965 ?

    Best,

    Matthew
    Hi Matthew,

    I have no hard evidence; only Tracy's assertion about finding an ironwood tree growing in the path of one of those scrapings, as well as bushes, et al.

    And also the reasoning that to fabricate a hoax on that scale would have been a downright harebrained scheme as the terrain in that area is pretty rough. And to what extent? What profit? Just to have a little fun?

    What do you think?

    And why the date, 1965?
    Last edited by deducer; Apr 18, 2019 at 02:29 PM.
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  3. #18
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Hi Matthew,

    I have no hard evidence; only Tracy's assertion about finding an ironwood tree growing in the path of one of those scrapings, as well as bushes, et al.

    And also the reasoning that to fabricate a hoax on that scale would have been a downright harebrained scheme as the terrain in that area is pretty rough. And to what extent? What profit? Just to have a little fun?

    What do you think?

    And why the date, 1965?

    "And also the reasoning that to fabricate a hoax on that scale would have been a downright harebrained scheme as the terrain in that area is pretty rough. And to what extent? What profit? Just to have a little fun?"...deducer...you would be surprised...lol
    Last edited by Treasure_Hunter; Apr 19, 2019 at 06:51 AM.
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  4. #19
    ca
    May 2007
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    I know-I know !
    Barry Storm !
    lol
    Last edited by somehiker; Apr 18, 2019 at 03:35 PM.
    Oroblanco likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  5. #20
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    deducer, somehiker, azdave35,

    I took somehikers 1892 map and drew in BLUE the old Sonora Trail and where the crossing of the Gila was in the old days. This is from an old Military map from Calabasas or Tucson.

    Also put a BLUE X in the general area where Tom Kollenborn believed there were carvings which may have been either Anglo, Spanish or Native American ? From one of Kollenborn's maps.

    Matthew

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #21
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    deducer, somehiker, azdave35,

    According to Charles Waters who lived and mined at the Cochran and other mining sites from the mid 40's through the 80's, the huge carvings (Heart and others) on both sides of the hill, appeared there in the winter of 1965.
    Carl and Eva Smith were at that time working numerous mines in the Rogers, Hewitt and Millsite canyon areas. They were being financed by some rich California investors. Two of those investors, Ted Monson and Milton Hammond came to Arizona and hired a work crew. It was this work crew that scraped the Heart and other symbols into the hillsides. According to Waters, the crew used machinery to scrape the hills. He didn't specify exactly what was used. There are no Ironwood trees, especially 350 years old, anywhere on that hill. Only some scrub Mesquite and Palo Verde and very few of them so I think Tracy was being told a rumor about the 350 year old Ironwood.

    On June 12, 1964 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) and Richard Stolley published an article in Life Magazine titled, Clues Carved on Stone Lead to Mysterious Maps to Lost Gold Mines.

    In March of 1965 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) published a book titled, Superstition Treasures. Both the Life article and book centered around mysterious stone carvings and the symbols on them.

    Waters recalls the hillside carvings appearing in the winter (December) 1965 with symbols from these publications.

    Monson and Hammond had read the Marlowe book and article and were in Arizona hiring crews in several areas working and filing numerous claims at that time.

    I have tried but couldn't find any reference of news or oral report or photo of the carvings on the hill prior to 1965.

    Tom Kollenborn is right when he says there are carving / markings on South Butte on the south side of the Gila. These are not huge carvings however and could be interpreted as both Anglo, Spanish or even Native American. The carvings are right along the old trail that came up from Sonora on the East side of South Butte about where the stone cabin is located on somehiker’s map. The old crossing of the Gila was directly North of where that old stone cabin is shown.

    Now it can be argued that Monson and Hammond by scraping the hillside were simply defining scrapings that were already there but partially obliterated by time, erosion and the elements.

    I haven’t a definite opinion on the Heart hillside because I was only there once and didn’t have enough time to fairly judge what was on the ground.

    Best,

    Matthew

  7. #22
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    I know-I know !
    Barry Storm !
    lol
    lol..barry was the tip of the iceberg..if you only knew how many mentally unstable wacko's there are and were up in the mountains and the lengths they would go to to protect their little area you would never go back in there alone again
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  8. #23
    ca
    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    lol..barry was the tip of the iceberg..if you only knew how many mentally unstable wacko's there are and were up in the mountains and the lengths they would go to to protect their little area you would never go back in there alone again
    So I've heard.
    Place is thick with tweakers and stoners alike.
    So you know these people who you say are so dangerous ?
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    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  9. #24
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    So I've heard.
    Place is thick with tweakers and stoners alike.
    So you know these people who you say are so dangerous ?
    oh yea..i know a few of them..apache junction is ripe with them lol
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  10. #25
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    oh yea..i know a few of them..apache junction is ripe with them lol
    azdave35,

    The Superstitions have always had their share of dangerous individuals but I think the most dangerous time was the last few years before the wilderness act kicked all the permanent camps out ( Jan. 1,1984 ). Crazy Jake had men in his camp who would shoot you for your shirt if they thought they could get away with it. Several other camps had some very unstable individuals. All were heavily armed and seldom sober. I never went into Jake's camp with my hand far from my .44 and never let anyone get behind me while there. Today those mountains seem tame by comparison.

  11. #26
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,787
    6419 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    azdave35,

    The Superstitions have always had their share of dangerous individuals but I think the most dangerous time was the last few years before the wilderness act kicked all the permanent camps out ( Jan. 1,1984 ). Crazy Jake had men in his camp who would shoot you for your shirt if they thought they could get away with it. Several other camps had some very unstable individuals. All were heavily armed and seldom sober. I never went into Jake's camp with my hand far from my .44 and never let anyone get behind me while there. Today those mountains seem tame by comparison.

    i dont know matthew..i dont think crazy jake ever killed anyone...just in the last 10 years alot of people have turned up missing up there...jesse capen...3 boys from utah...just to name a few...quite a few more missing that nobody cared about...
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  12. #27

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    deducer, somehiker, azdave35,

    According to Charles Waters who lived and mined at the Cochran and other mining sites from the mid 40's through the 80's, the huge carvings (Heart and others) on both sides of the hill, appeared there in the winter of 1965.
    Carl and Eva Smith were at that time working numerous mines in the Rogers, Hewitt and Millsite canyon areas. They were being financed by some rich California investors. Two of those investors, Ted Monson and Milton Hammond came to Arizona and hired a work crew. It was this work crew that scraped the Heart and other symbols into the hillsides. According to Waters, the crew used machinery to scrape the hills. He didn't specify exactly what was used. There are no Ironwood trees, especially 350 years old, anywhere on that hill. Only some scrub Mesquite and Palo Verde and very few of them so I think Tracy was being told a rumor about the 350 year old Ironwood.

    On June 12, 1964 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) and Richard Stolley published an article in Life Magazine titled, Clues Carved on Stone Lead to Mysterious Maps to Lost Gold Mines.

    In March of 1965 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) published a book titled, Superstition Treasures. Both the Life article and book centered around mysterious stone carvings and the symbols on them.

    Waters recalls the hillside carvings appearing in the winter (December) 1965 with symbols from these publications.

    Monson and Hammond had read the Marlowe book and article and were in Arizona hiring crews in several areas working and filing numerous claims at that time.

    I have tried but couldn't find any reference of news or oral report or photo of the carvings on the hill prior to 1965.

    Tom Kollenborn is right when he says there are carving / markings on South Butte on the south side of the Gila. These are not huge carvings however and could be interpreted as both Anglo, Spanish or even Native American. The carvings are right along the old trail that came up from Sonora on the East side of South Butte about where the stone cabin is located on somehiker’s map. The old crossing of the Gila was directly North of where that old stone cabin is shown.

    Now it can be argued that Monson and Hammond by scraping the hillside were simply defining scrapings that were already there but partially obliterated by time, erosion and the elements.

    I haven’t a definite opinion on the Heart hillside because I was only there once and didn’t have enough time to fairly judge what was on the ground.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Hi Matthew,

    Some points to consider:

    First, Tracy Hawkins himself said that he personally, had run into folks on the site of the second set of carvings, from the University of Northern Arizona in Flagstaff who told him they were trying to ringdate the ironwood trees at the site of the carvings. He also mentions that he was told about the site in the "early 60's." Was he lying?

    I believe that Joe Ribaudo, at a later date, said that he had tried to track down those folks at UNA, and tried to find out about the ringdating expedition, but was not successful.

    I am aware of Mitchell's "Superstition Treasures" I had a copy of that book, but lent it to someone some years ago. To my recollection, Mitchell does not mention the carvings at Twin Buttes. He furthermore does not mention that site anywhere else. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    What were Monson's and Hammond's motivation in creating these giant scrapings? To attract or bilk investors? If so, wouldn't just one hillside have sufficed, rather than two, and why yet another site right by the Gila? Why two hearts rather than just one, as on the trail stone maps?

    Also, the site of the carvings was not an isolated location- there were roads and trails crisscrossing that area, in addition to the many claims staked there at the time. It would seem to be a risky location to stage a fraud, wouldn't it?
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  13. #28

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    deducer...you would be surprised...lol
    I have yet to see actual proof of a large act of deception that took place in the Superstitions, that involved more than one man or many hours of labor.

    What I've come across are things that were easily done by one man, or taking only a few hours of labor, such as the "ORO" sunburst sign, or the "Jacob Waltz 1888" scratchings on BTM.

  14. #29
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    deducer

    You make some solid points and I cannot argue with them. As Charley Waters pointed out to me, it is altogether possible that Monson and Hammond found the heart and other symbols on those hillsides in a very delapidated condition and simply retraced them. He never at any time told me they never could have originally been there all along. At least one mine if not two exists on the heart hill. I was mystified by the whole area and wished I could have spent more time there.

    Best,

    Matthew

  15. #30

    Jan 2014
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    3540 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    deducer

    You make some solid points and I cannot argue with them. As Charley Waters pointed out to me, it is altogether possible that Monson and Hammond found the heart and other symbols on those hillsides in a very delapidated condition and simply retraced them. He never at any time told me they never could have originally been there all along. At least one mine if not two exists on the heart hill. I was mystified by the whole area and wished I could have spent more time there.

    Best,

    Matthew

    Please understand that I'm not interested in arguing, or in taking positions. I'm only interested in getting as close to the truth as I can, as far as determining the actual history of the Superstitions and what really happened there.

    If someone presented me with incontrovertible proof that contradicted my theory or interpretation of something or an event, I would gladly revise or discard them without question.

 

 
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