Where are the heart carvings?

Matthew Roberts

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deducer, somehiker, azdave35,

According to Charles Waters who lived and mined at the Cochran and other mining sites from the mid 40's through the 80's, the huge carvings (Heart and others) on both sides of the hill, appeared there in the winter of 1965.
Carl and Eva Smith were at that time working numerous mines in the Rogers, Hewitt and Millsite canyon areas. They were being financed by some rich California investors. Two of those investors, Ted Monson and Milton Hammond came to Arizona and hired a work crew. It was this work crew that scraped the Heart and other symbols into the hillsides. According to Waters, the crew used machinery to scrape the hills. He didn't specify exactly what was used. There are no Ironwood trees, especially 350 years old, anywhere on that hill. Only some scrub Mesquite and Palo Verde and very few of them so I think Tracy was being told a rumor about the 350 year old Ironwood.

On June 12, 1964 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) and Richard Stolley published an article in Life Magazine titled, Clues Carved on Stone Lead to Mysterious Maps to Lost Gold Mines.

In March of 1965 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) published a book titled, Superstition Treasures. Both the Life article and book centered around mysterious stone carvings and the symbols on them.

Waters recalls the hillside carvings appearing in the winter (December) 1965 with symbols from these publications.

Monson and Hammond had read the Marlowe book and article and were in Arizona hiring crews in several areas working and filing numerous claims at that time.

I have tried but couldn't find any reference of news or oral report or photo of the carvings on the hill prior to 1965.

Tom Kollenborn is right when he says there are carving / markings on South Butte on the south side of the Gila. These are not huge carvings however and could be interpreted as both Anglo, Spanish or even Native American. The carvings are right along the old trail that came up from Sonora on the East side of South Butte about where the stone cabin is located on somehiker’s map. The old crossing of the Gila was directly North of where that old stone cabin is shown.

Now it can be argued that Monson and Hammond by scraping the hillside were simply defining scrapings that were already there but partially obliterated by time, erosion and the elements.

I haven’t a definite opinion on the Heart hillside because I was only there once and didn’t have enough time to fairly judge what was on the ground.

Best,

Matthew
 

azdave35

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Barry Storm !
lol
lol..barry was the tip of the iceberg..if you only knew how many mentally unstable wacko's there are and were up in the mountains and the lengths they would go to to protect their little area you would never go back in there alone again
 

somehiker

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lol..barry was the tip of the iceberg..if you only knew how many mentally unstable wacko's there are and were up in the mountains and the lengths they would go to to protect their little area you would never go back in there alone again

So I've heard.
Place is thick with tweakers and stoners alike.
So you know these people who you say are so dangerous ?
 

Matthew Roberts

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oh yea..i know a few of them..apache junction is ripe with them lol:headbang:

azdave35,

The Superstitions have always had their share of dangerous individuals but I think the most dangerous time was the last few years before the wilderness act kicked all the permanent camps out ( Jan. 1,1984 ). Crazy Jake had men in his camp who would shoot you for your shirt if they thought they could get away with it. Several other camps had some very unstable individuals. All were heavily armed and seldom sober. I never went into Jake's camp with my hand far from my .44 and never let anyone get behind me while there. Today those mountains seem tame by comparison.
 

azdave35

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Dec 19, 2008
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azdave35,

The Superstitions have always had their share of dangerous individuals but I think the most dangerous time was the last few years before the wilderness act kicked all the permanent camps out ( Jan. 1,1984 ). Crazy Jake had men in his camp who would shoot you for your shirt if they thought they could get away with it. Several other camps had some very unstable individuals. All were heavily armed and seldom sober. I never went into Jake's camp with my hand far from my .44 and never let anyone get behind me while there. Today those mountains seem tame by comparison.


i dont know matthew..i dont think crazy jake ever killed anyone...just in the last 10 years alot of people have turned up missing up there...jesse capen...3 boys from utah...just to name a few...quite a few more missing that nobody cared about...
 

deducer

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deducer, somehiker, azdave35,

According to Charles Waters who lived and mined at the Cochran and other mining sites from the mid 40's through the 80's, the huge carvings (Heart and others) on both sides of the hill, appeared there in the winter of 1965.
Carl and Eva Smith were at that time working numerous mines in the Rogers, Hewitt and Millsite canyon areas. They were being financed by some rich California investors. Two of those investors, Ted Monson and Milton Hammond came to Arizona and hired a work crew. It was this work crew that scraped the Heart and other symbols into the hillsides. According to Waters, the crew used machinery to scrape the hills. He didn't specify exactly what was used. There are no Ironwood trees, especially 350 years old, anywhere on that hill. Only some scrub Mesquite and Palo Verde and very few of them so I think Tracy was being told a rumor about the 350 year old Ironwood.

On June 12, 1964 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) and Richard Stolley published an article in Life Magazine titled, Clues Carved on Stone Lead to Mysterious Maps to Lost Gold Mines.

In March of 1965 Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) published a book titled, Superstition Treasures. Both the Life article and book centered around mysterious stone carvings and the symbols on them.

Waters recalls the hillside carvings appearing in the winter (December) 1965 with symbols from these publications.

Monson and Hammond had read the Marlowe book and article and were in Arizona hiring crews in several areas working and filing numerous claims at that time.

I have tried but couldn't find any reference of news or oral report or photo of the carvings on the hill prior to 1965.

Tom Kollenborn is right when he says there are carving / markings on South Butte on the south side of the Gila. These are not huge carvings however and could be interpreted as both Anglo, Spanish or even Native American. The carvings are right along the old trail that came up from Sonora on the East side of South Butte about where the stone cabin is located on somehiker’s map. The old crossing of the Gila was directly North of where that old stone cabin is shown.

Now it can be argued that Monson and Hammond by scraping the hillside were simply defining scrapings that were already there but partially obliterated by time, erosion and the elements.

I haven’t a definite opinion on the Heart hillside because I was only there once and didn’t have enough time to fairly judge what was on the ground.

Best,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Some points to consider:

First, Tracy Hawkins himself said that he personally, had run into folks on the site of the second set of carvings, from the University of Northern Arizona in Flagstaff who told him they were trying to ringdate the ironwood trees at the site of the carvings. He also mentions that he was told about the site in the "early 60's." Was he lying?

I believe that Joe Ribaudo, at a later date, said that he had tried to track down those folks at UNA, and tried to find out about the ringdating expedition, but was not successful.

I am aware of Mitchell's "Superstition Treasures" I had a copy of that book, but lent it to someone some years ago. To my recollection, Mitchell does not mention the carvings at Twin Buttes. He furthermore does not mention that site anywhere else. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What were Monson's and Hammond's motivation in creating these giant scrapings? To attract or bilk investors? If so, wouldn't just one hillside have sufficed, rather than two, and why yet another site right by the Gila? Why two hearts rather than just one, as on the trail stone maps?

Also, the site of the carvings was not an isolated location- there were roads and trails crisscrossing that area, in addition to the many claims staked there at the time. It would seem to be a risky location to stage a fraud, wouldn't it?
 

deducer

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deducer...you would be surprised...lol

I have yet to see actual proof of a large act of deception that took place in the Superstitions, that involved more than one man or many hours of labor.

What I've come across are things that were easily done by one man, or taking only a few hours of labor, such as the "ORO" sunburst sign, or the "Jacob Waltz 1888" scratchings on BTM.
 

Matthew Roberts

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deducer

You make some solid points and I cannot argue with them. As Charley Waters pointed out to me, it is altogether possible that Monson and Hammond found the heart and other symbols on those hillsides in a very delapidated condition and simply retraced them. He never at any time told me they never could have originally been there all along. At least one mine if not two exists on the heart hill. I was mystified by the whole area and wished I could have spent more time there.

Best,

Matthew
 

deducer

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deducer

You make some solid points and I cannot argue with them. As Charley Waters pointed out to me, it is altogether possible that Monson and Hammond found the heart and other symbols on those hillsides in a very delapidated condition and simply retraced them. He never at any time told me they never could have originally been there all along. At least one mine if not two exists on the heart hill. I was mystified by the whole area and wished I could have spent more time there.

Best,

Matthew


Please understand that I'm not interested in arguing, or in taking positions. I'm only interested in getting as close to the truth as I can, as far as determining the actual history of the Superstitions and what really happened there.

If someone presented me with incontrovertible proof that contradicted my theory or interpretation of something or an event, I would gladly revise or discard them without question.
 

Dirt1955

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This is why I regularly check in on this site. Thoughtful discussion I can ponder on and research. Thanks for sharing.
 

Azquester

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I've posted this Spanish Jesuit De Re Metallica stepped Pit Mine photo before. From the Archives of the Indies. I thought I would post it again for viewing. It may not seem like nor mean much at this time. In the near future I hope it will be very significant. Did Old Jacob stumble upon one of these pits? Or should I say stumble into? Notice the underground structures built. This is simply an amazing feat! Heart carvings lead to what?


View attachment 1705914
 

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somehiker

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I've posted this Spanish Jesuit De Re Metallica stepped Pit Mine photo before. From the Archives of the Indies. I thought I would post it again for viewing. It may not seem like nor mean much at this time. In the near future I hope it will be very significant. Did Old Jacob stumble upon one of these pits? Or should I say stumble into? Notice the underground structures built. This is simply an amazing feat! Heart carvings lead to what?


View attachment 1705914

Don't think the Dutchman did any prospecting in Peru, Bill.



Mina Santa Barbara.jpg

Was he looking for Mercury ?



Santa Barbara 2.jpg

It's all very interesting, but I doub't has anything to do with the Gila River Scrapings, the Superstitions, or Waltz.

Take care.
 

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Azquester

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Peru, maybe not. But the construction of the mine is the same over there as it would be around here. It's all about the types of mines not the location. They all used the same book for mining.
It's just an example please dont take it so literally. Hearts lead to many things. Pit's with steps are the points I'm making. Kenworthy found steps up to his mine.

Did Jacob find steps down in his pit? If the story is even true...
 

Azquester

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And as far as it has anything to do with the Superstitions or the Gila River scrapings and Waltz, right now it looks that way. Give it some time and It'll all make sense. Once it's officially announced that is. Nice Video's of my research! Thanks!
 

deducer

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Back to the subject: The heart carvings, or the scrapings at the Gila River.
 

dredgernaut

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Screenshot_2019-04-21-08-23-08-1.png When I was trying to understand the bilbrey crosses . I came up with this image . I think it says ORO in a similar type of mound writing. Or not.
 

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dredgernaut

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Its about mounds that make shapes, thought that was interesting, sorry your offended. Lol
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Please stay on thread topic, the thread is about the heart carvings.
 

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