Legend vs Realitiy

[Blindbowman]

Not to derail the discussion, but in defense of the Spanish and their treatment of the natives - consider this; the Pima rebellion of 1751. In this case the Pimas deliberately went after the padres, and several actually fled to the supposedly brutal Spaniards and begged them to protect them from the wrath of the padres! Also several Jesuits complained of "their" Indians running away from the missions to go work for the Spanish and thus "learning every sin". One padre complained that even if he could find the runaway Indians, it was almost impossible to entice them to return to the missions! Remember these missions were run as a business, four days of each week were forced labor for the Indians and to refuse meant starving, beatings with the whip and or the stocks. An English visitor to a Franciscan mission in California in the 1770s was shocked at the brutal treatment of the Indians by the padres, and the idea of the poor Indian being forced to kiss the hand of the padre who ordered him to be whipped was particularly disturbing.

Blindbowman I take it then that you believe Coronado was mistaken in his visit and assault on Cibola? For those whom have not read Coronado's official report it is online (free) at:

https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/corona8.htm

Coronado was convinced he had found Cibola, and that it was a complete BS tale made up by friar Marcos de Niza. Are you saying that Coronado was wrong, and that the seven cities of Cibola are located in the Superstitions? Thanks in advance.

Coffee anyone?

no in fact I would believe it is to the word .. we know there is gold and silver in these areas but finding it is a whole other story as you well know and so do I ... if they had great wealth they would not have made it known .. but I fully agree with what his over sight is .. and I dose again prove what I am saying the best way to locate the site is from the south headed northward and when you reach the site your on a mountain where mountains surround the site .I do say he maybe over the number of houses at this site but as they were destroyed I can not know a true count of them ..after being at this site and knowing how hard it is to find any evidence out in the open . I would say he is right on the money and did a fair job describing the events now I don't know about the other cities and I stated that from the start .. but I do believe this is what was called Cibola ...what the Indian called it was up to them ...but yes I am 100% positive this is the real Cibola what ever it is now it was back then far more ..

 

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[Blindbowman]

I would also add one fact . you can only see heart mountain from the south by south west ! but we do learn that they called the area valley of the heart ..and we do for a fact know he came from the south .

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

bad choice of wording . there was no "savages " unless they were white men !

Sorry, I was using their words. Not my opinion of them at all. That is why the quote marks.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Not to derail the discussion, but in defense of the Spanish and their treatment of the natives - consider this; the Pima rebellion of 1751. In this case the Pimas deliberately went after the padres, and several actually fled to the supposedly brutal Spaniards and begged them to protect them from the wrath of the padres! Also several Jesuits complained of "their" Indians running away from the missions to go work for the Spanish and thus "learning every sin". One padre complained that even if he could find the runaway Indians, it was almost impossible to entice them to return to the missions! Remember these missions were run as a business, four days of each week were forced labor for the Indians and to refuse meant starving, beatings with the whip and or the stocks. An English visitor to a Franciscan mission in California in the 1770s was shocked at the brutal treatment of the Indians by the padres, and the idea of the poor Indian being forced to kiss the hand of the padre who ordered him to be whipped was particularly disturbing.

Blindbowman I take it then that you believe Coronado was mistaken in his visit and assault on Cibola? For those whom have not read Coronado's official report it is online (free) at:

https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/corona8.htm

Coronado was convinced he had found Cibola, and that it was a complete BS tale made up by friar Marcos de Niza. Are you saying that Coronado was wrong, and that the seven cities of Cibola are located in the Superstitions? Thanks in advance.

Coffee anyone?

Would it be fair to say the goals of the padres were different than the Conquistadors? And sometimes their goals meshed. I'm just here to learn. Seems as a kid I read accounts of how cruel the Spanish were to Indians. But doesn't mean they were accurate.
How many burros will be required for the sacks of coffee needed for an expedition into the mountains, since you have been there?

 

[Blindbowman]

Sorry, I was using their words. Not my opinion of them at all. That is why the quote marks.

I know . I am part Mohawk and don't believe "savages " have a color of skin .. in many ways Indians live a more pure life then the modern world ...I was married to a 3/4 Blackfoot for 25 years ...its one the reasons i research these sites ,I would hope the tribes history would be more valued then gold or silver ...

 

[Blindbowman]

don't worry you will a addicted to treasure hunting before you know it ...lol

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Bowman, could you estimate how much ground was covered by your site? Was it a typical village, whatever that would mean, or a city as we understand it? Although a small one I suppose. What is the Spanish word the Friar used?

 

[Blindbowman]

Bowman, could you estimate how much ground was covered by your site? Was it a typical village, whatever that would mean, or a city as we understand it? Although a small one I suppose. What is the Spanish word the Friar used?

I would say its not more then 10-12 acre ,over all size ..I would guess like the bone knife there are going to be things found here at this site . and after a true account of the site we may learn more then we have ever known about these tribes ..I found a art work of a cactus king on a cliff wall and I did not know what it was about at the time . but I would latter see it on a Aztec codex .. and wonder how the Aztec had drawn it . but now I see the Aztec only copied it from a Zuni drawing ... below that drawing is a cave all coverd up with large rocks . what is below in that cave . is that been there 25-35 thousand years .. we will not know till we open it and learn from what is there ...

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

don't worry you will a addicted to treasure hunting before you know it ...lol

Part of that addiction is the urge to know, curiousity, wanting to see something no one has ever seen, or find a place lost for hundreds of years.
Some people are happy to sit on a couch and be a spectater.

 

[Al D]

Part of that addiction is the urge to know, curiousity, wanting to see something no one has ever seen, or find a place lost for hundreds of years.
Some people are happy to sit on a couch and be a spectater.

That does not last long, there is nothing to compare to actually hiking out and making a discovery

 

[Crowfriend]

“Death traps are not all Spanish - the Indians also created them for use against their enemies. May have some photos of death traps built by Indians here somewhere, usually big rock(s) set up to be tripped very easily by someone getting too close or to be triggered by hand.”

Up in the mountains in S E Arizona

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

That does not last long, there is nothing to compare to actually hiking out and making a discovery

I never liked watching other people live. Kinda irritates me to see people not living when they could be.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

“Death traps are not all Spanish - the Indians also created them for use against their enemies. May have some photos of death traps built by Indians here somewhere, usually big rock(s) set up to be tripped very easily by someone getting too close or to be triggered by hand.”

Up in the mountains in S E Arizona

View attachment 1752592

Well, that is interesting. What's in the hole?

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I would say its not more then 10-12 acre ,over all size ..I would guess like the bone knife there are going to be things found here at this site . and after a true account of the site we may learn more then we have ever known about these tribes ..I found a art work of a cactus king on a cliff wall and I did not know what it was about at the time . but I would latter see it on a Aztec codex .. and wonder how the Aztec had drawn it . but now I see the Aztec only copied it from a Zuni drawing ... below that drawing is a cave all coverd up with large rocks . what is below in that cave . is that been there 25-35 thousand years .. we will not know till we open it and learn from what is there ...

I hope you took plenty of pics. That sounds like a village site. Was the bone knife all you saw, or other artifacts? I like your idea of the gold dust, if that is what the Friar saw, being blown away.
Well, here are some of the Friar's words about his journey after finding out Estevan was attacked (he went ahead):
"I proceeded to distribute what I had left of the garments and trade articles, to calm them, and I urged them to realize that even if they killed me, they could really not harm me because I would die a Christian, and would go to heaven. But those who killed me would suffer for it, because more Christians would come in search for me and kill all of them, even thought that would be against my own wishes. These words and my other speeches appeased them, though they still were angry over the people who had been killed.
I proposed that some of them should go on with me to Cibola, to see if any others had escaped, and to learn what we could about Estevan. I could get nowhere with this idea. At last, two of the chiefs, seeing me determined to go on, said they would go with me.
With these and my own Indians and interpreters, I pursued my journey until within sight of Cíbola, which is situated on a plain at the skirt of a round hill. It has the appearance of a very beautiful town, the best I have seen in these parts. The houses are of the style that the Indians had described to me, all of stone, with stories and terraces, as well as I could see from a hill where I was able to view it. The city is bigger than Mexico City. At times, I was tempted to go on to the city itself, because I knew I risked only life, which I had offered to God on the day I started the journey. But, in the end, I was afraid to try it, realizing my danger and that if I died, I would not be able to make a report on this country, which to me appears the greatest and best of the discoveries I have made.
When I remarked to the chiefs about how beautiful this city was, they replied that this one was the least of the seven cities. Furthermore, Totonteac, the still more distant kingdom, is even better than these seven. They said it has so many houses and people that it has no end.
Viewing the geographic setting of the city, I thought it appropriate to name this country the new kingdom of Saint Francis. There, with the aid of the Indians, I made a great heap of stones, and on top of it I placed a cross, small and light because I lacked the equipment to make it larger. I announced that I was erecting this cross and monument in the name of Don Antonio de Mendoza, Viceroy of New Spain, for our lord the Emperor, in token of possession and conforming to the instructions. I proclaimed that in this act of possession I was taking all of the seven cities... and that the reason I didn't proceed onward to them was to return and give an account of what I did and what I saw."
Seems there were language barriers and rumors.
http://www.psi.edu/about/staff/hartmann/coronado/journeyofmarcosdeniza.html

 

[Blindbowman]

I hope you took plenty of pics. That sounds like a village site. Was the bone knife all you saw, or other artifacts? I like your idea of the gold dust, if that is what the Friar saw, being blown away.
Well, I'll throw this out there as wild conjecture not even based

I fully agree with you if I had not know there were more then one account of the volcanic blow out covering the house and then finding a volcanic blow out source I would think it was just a good story , but take into account . the volcanic blow out site is about 100ft higher then the village site and is up wind from it so if the theory of the blow was true then the village would have to be lower and down when from the blow out site and in fact is is . now take into account that gold dust is heavy and will not float in the air so most likely it would have to be force along by the prevailing wind and they would most likely only take the gold dust a few hundred feet away . and guess they did ! now take into account what are the odds of there being two places with that many conditions being right to make this cause and effect ... the odds are over whelming, and how many other Zuni sites are out there with these same conditions .. I can tell you just by the odds ... none ! then you get a test and it matches quartz and gold ...to the same blow out site .. !

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I fully agree with you if I had not know there were more then one account of the volcanic blow out covering the house and then finding a volcanic blow out source I would think it was just a good story , but take into account . the volcanic blow out site is about 100ft higher then the village site and is up wind from it so if the theory of the blow was true then the village would have to be lower and down when from the blow out site and in fact is is . now take into account that gold dust is heavy and will not float in the air so most likely it would have to be force along by the prevailing wind and they would most likely only take the gold dust a few hundred feet away . and guess they did ! now take into account what are the odds of there being two places with that many conditions being right to make this cause and effect ... the odds are over whelming, and how many other Zuni sites are out there with these same conditions .. I can tell you just by the odds ... none ! then you get a test and it matches quartz and gold ...to the same blow out site .. !

I had to check something mid post and accidentally posted incomplete. Sorry about that.
My conjecture was going to be if these Zuni had gold and gems, and here comes Estevan, and perhaps they know about the Spaniards business. So they kill Estevan, and when the ecpedition returns in a year there is no gold or emeralds to be found. And there is your cave handy. But does your site jibe with big city the Friar saw.
.

 

[Blindbowman]

I had to check something mid post and accidentally posted incomplete. Sorry about that.
My conjecture was going to be if these Zuni had gold and gems, and here comes Estevan, and perhaps they know about the Spaniards business. So they kill Estevan, and when the ecpedition returns in a year there is no gold or emeralds to be found. And there is your cave handy. But does your site jibe with big city the Friar saw.
.

you also should take into account it would look like a hornets nest from a few hundred feet away ...looking down on it ...and the house could have been two or 3 level high from that far away I would have to say a large village or small city .. the only structure I saw not Indian was the Jesuit church remains ..but I did see something that even makes me wonder . in the area where the cliff art is .. I saw some odd square markings with a letter C in one of them but there were at lest 2 or 3 of these markings and they were on the stone face but no way of knowing if they were add before of after the cave was sealed ...they were clearly done by hand and would have taken hours to make them that way ...

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact is I would not have noticed them if it was not for a small 3inch arrow pointing at them ... there are lot of numbers and faded writing on the stone faces of some of them bigger stones that fell into the cave area ,I don't know if that's a cave or some kind of mine ... with out a team I could not risk being injured ...

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

you also should take into account it would look like a hornets nest from a few hundred feet away ...looking down on it ...and the house could have been two or 3 level high from that far away I would have to say a large village or small city .. the only structure I saw not Indian was the Jesuit church remains ..but I did see something that even makes me wonder . in the area where the cliff art is .. I saw some odd square markings with a letter C in one of them but there were at lest 2 or 3 of these markings and they were on the stone face but no way of knowing if they were add before of after the cave was sealed ...they were clearly done by hand and would have taken hours to make them that way ...

You're right. That kind of went over my head. Stacked.


Maybe compare those marks to known marks in terms of how carved.

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact you made me think about it and I never scan those markings and did a zoom on them to see if I could bring out more detail .. so that's what I am doing right now ...