Waltz going to Florence for supplies

[somehiker]

GPS location of the billboard. 33.582050°, -111.553169° Goggle Earth shows it standing in 2018.

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That's the one on Stewart Mountain, a few miles away from the one Eldo believes is a "canopy". Easier to get to, lots of folks been up to that one.
There are several others to the N, S, and West of Phoenix as well, which were used until January of this year as targets for checking the alignment of Air Traffic Control Radar. Close to, and connected, each target also has a microwave repeater (PAROT), which returns an identifier code to the radar operator. This system has now been superseded by ADS-B, and will be dismantled as time and funding allows.
Looks like they've already started on Eldo's.

Here's a shot of both the target board and PARROT unit on Stewart Mtn .......



along with the relevant part of a checklist formerly used by ATC personnel (Air Traffic Controllers).....

 

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[somehiker]

One thing i know about back country travel, be it hiking, biking, motorcycling, or horseback, almost without fail, you never make the time or mileage you estimate back at the ranch. Water breaks, food breaks, rest breaks, readjusting the packs and load, giving the animals rest, adjusting your saddle, stopping for the view or to look at maps, rocks in your shoes, rocks in your horses shoe etc etc etc. Take what you estimate you can make and either half the mileage or double the time and you're about right...

Need to keep in mind that Waltz would have also had to keep an eye out for Apaches while on the trail and all that implies.

 

[Idahodutch]

Need to keep in mind that Waltz would have also had to keep an eye out for Apaches while on the trail and all that implies.

So ...... are you thinking that maybe he would have switched over to hyper speed then? Or moved slower?

 

[markmar]

From what I know, Waltz should be back to the mine in the fourth day while he would go for supplies in Florence. Concerning the Wiser death, Waltz was late one day in his return, and Wiser believed how was caught and killed by the Apache.

In Wiser death story, people have to know few things about what could be real and what could be fiction. What I will write below is what I know from my own research, but can be easy proven true if one day you will find the LDM.

If the story which tells Wiser was found dead is true, then this could been happened only at the LDM spot, because there the place is like a " cage " and Wiser wouldn't has a chance to slip away. In no way Wiser would been killed or would been attacked at their camp, and this because that place is/was forbidden to the Apache, considering that place as the Christian's sacred cave and cursed. Of course Waltz and Wiser never have been aware of this sacred place, because what was the ruins of the church of Santa Fe to them was only a roofless two room house ruin.Traditional Apache have a different sacred cave which is about half mile afar from the Christian's, and is this one that they are protecting.

Now, if the story which tells how Wiser was attacked and chased by the Apaches and after wounded went to the Dr. Walker's house is true, then Waltz and Wiser were mining a different mine than the LDM, and deducing from the Elisabeth Wiser Howland map, that mine should been the one east of WN from the Peralta-Fish map. I believe for this mine Waltz has " bought " the rights from the Peraltas. Now how Waltz found the LDM, I believe how when he was back to the mine after the attack on Wiser, was his turn to be chased by the Apache, and after was hidding and sleeping in the mountains some distance from the mine, the next day he fell accidentally on the camp of the two Mexicans who were working the LDM inclined shaft. And from here you know the story.

Of course exists and the third story which tells how Waltz killed his partner, but if this story is true , then for sure Waltz would killed him afar from the mine and hasn't any relation with how many days would take Waltz to go for supplies in Florence.

 

[somehiker]

So ...... are you thinking that maybe he would have switched over to hyper speed then? Or moved slower?[/QUOTE


Since the Apache often raided Pima villages along the Gila, I would think a cautious and relatively slow pace would have been the way to go.
To raise no dust, and to stop frequently at places where he could scan the surrounding area without risk of being seen himself. Hyper speed would only have been engaged if Apache were seen in hot pursuit......and of course his mule, were he to catch a whiff of Geronimo's Own BBQ sauce anywhere along the way, would have automatically gone to warp drive.

 

[393stroker]

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234451630238648

 

[somehiker]

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Dutchman-Mine-Unraveling-Mystery/dp/0996634525

A few years back, Dr. Glover gave a presentation at the Rendezvous about some of what he found while gathering documented information for this book. One of those items, which should be in the book, was a obituary for Jacob Wieser, which was published by a newspaper in Prescott as I recall Thomas having said, and that the date was within the proper timeline. Worth having a look if you have a copy Chuck, as he may have included additional info on the circumstances, ie: where he wound up and how he got there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Dutchman-Mine-Unraveling-Mystery/dp/0996634525

A few years back, Dr. Glover gave a presentation at the Rendezvous about some of what he found while gathering documented information for this book. One of those items, which should be in the book, was a obituary for Jacob Wieser, which was published by a newspaper in Prescott as I recall Thomas having said, and that the date was within the proper timeline. Worth having a look if you have a copy Chuck, as he may have included additional info on the circumstances, ie: where he wound up and how he got there.

Yep. Personally I don't want to get into a debate on the truthfulness of this legend or story over another, but here's the obit for any interested:

View attachment Jacob Weiss Obit.pdf

Levi Ruggles founded Florence in 1866...the Jacob Weiss who bought shares in the Gross Lode from William Gross, and was then partners in the Gross Lode with Waltz, died in Prescott in1867. From fever. Weiss had a homestead near Mayer. It's now part of a working cattle ranch. Anyway, kinda hard to die in two places is all I'm saying...sorry for the interruption, carry on pardners...

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to toss a monkey wrench into this thread, but the story of the "Jacobs and Ludy" found in Barry Storm's first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman seems to be the origin of the tale of the two partners with one going for supplies and the other getting ambushed, crawling out to be rescued only to die soon afterwards. A little research turned up two US soldiers whom were discharged in AZ circa 1864 (about, working from memory so corrections are welcome) named Jacob Ludy or Ludi and another Ludy, which I cannot recall the first name. They had enlisted in Missouri and had 18 years difference in age between them - perhaps uncle and nephew? Anyway it casts a shadow on the Waltz/Weiser/Adams Mill tale for me. I suspect that the story is based on facts, but has erroneously been linked to Jacob Waltz and perhaps by the newspaperman who made the story public namely Weed.

All that said, Waltz was well known in Florence, as attested by several "old timers" we have in the Pioneer Interviews. Perhaps they were simply claiming knowledge like Cactusjumper suggested ("Hell I was There" syndrome) but as the story is markedly different from those sources, I suspect strongly that it is perhaps the correct version of history. Unfortunately the clues available are very sparse, only that it was "no big secret" in Florence that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, hence the need for a portable drywasher, and that it was on a side canyon off of 'Pinto Creek'. The problems multiply from that point of course for we can not be 100% certain exactly what creek was being referred to as Pinto Creek, nor what exactly was meant by a side canyon. It encompasses a very large area.

Please do continue,

 

[393stroker]

Not to toss a monkey wrench into this thread, but the story of the "Jacobs and Ludy" found in Barry Storm's first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman seems to be the origin of the tale of the two partners with one going for supplies and the other getting ambushed, crawling out to be rescued only to die soon afterwards. A little research turned up two US soldiers whom were discharged in AZ circa 1864 (about, working from memory so corrections are welcome) named Jacob Ludy or Ludi and another Ludy, which I cannot recall the first name. They had enlisted in Missouri and had 18 years difference in age between them - perhaps uncle and nephew? Anyway it casts a shadow on the Waltz/Weiser/Adams Mill tale for me. I suspect that the story is based on facts, but has erroneously been linked to Jacob Waltz and perhaps by the newspaperman who made the story public namely Weed.

All that said, Waltz was well known in Florence, as attested by several "old timers" we have in the Pioneer Interviews. Perhaps they were simply claiming knowledge like Cactusjumper suggested ("Hell I was There" syndrome) but as the story is markedly different from those sources, I suspect strongly that it is perhaps the correct version of history. Unfortunately the clues available are very sparse, only that it was "no big secret" in Florence that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, hence the need for a portable drywasher, and that it was on a side canyon off of 'Pinto Creek'. The problems multiply from that point of course for we can not be 100% certain exactly what creek was being referred to as Pinto Creek, nor what exactly was meant by a side canyon. It encompasses a very large area.

Please do continue,

A few years ago I went up Apache Trail 88 up by Desert to Tall Pines Hwy and 242. Drove all the way down 242 to Pinto and and floated the Raptor to the other side. Hiked a couple hills then made my way downstream a ways. I saw for myself gold dust/flake in some of the potholes in the river bed.

 

[markmar]

Not to toss a monkey wrench into this thread, but the story of the "Jacobs and Ludy" found in Barry Storm's first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman seems to be the origin of the tale of the two partners with one going for supplies and the other getting ambushed, crawling out to be rescued only to die soon afterwards. A little research turned up two US soldiers whom were discharged in AZ circa 1864 (about, working from memory so corrections are welcome) named Jacob Ludy or Ludi and another Ludy, which I cannot recall the first name. They had enlisted in Missouri and had 18 years difference in age between them - perhaps uncle and nephew? Anyway it casts a shadow on the Waltz/Weiser/Adams Mill tale for me. I suspect that the story is based on facts, but has erroneously been linked to Jacob Waltz and perhaps by the newspaperman who made the story public namely Weed.

All that said, Waltz was well known in Florence, as attested by several "old timers" we have in the Pioneer Interviews. Perhaps they were simply claiming knowledge like Cactusjumper suggested ("Hell I was There" syndrome) but as the story is markedly different from those sources, I suspect strongly that it is perhaps the correct version of history. Unfortunately the clues available are very sparse, only that it was "no big secret" in Florence that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, hence the need for a portable drywasher, and that it was on a side canyon off of 'Pinto Creek'. The problems multiply from that point of course for we can not be 100% certain exactly what creek was being referred to as Pinto Creek, nor what exactly was meant by a side canyon. It encompasses a very large area.

Please do continue,

Roy, I agree with your statement how the story of someone who went for supplies and in that time frame his partner was attacked and ended at the Dr Walker house, was for the Ludi guys. Actually the mine that was working by the Ludis, was/is a very rich silver mine with a large ( about 10 feet ) funnel shape entrance, covered up by now.
Waltz has only his nephew as partner who ended dead at Agua Escondida. IMHO, none of Waltz clues corresponds with the Ludis silver mine region, which is the same Edgar Cayce named it as the Ship mine.

 

[markmar]

Hey Oroblanco

Did you know the Chest and Ship stone carved by Travis Tumlinson was actually in regards to the lost Ship mine ( in red circle from GE image )?
Look at the sign right from the mine. Mucho dineros amigo mio.

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