Getting really warm - the Great Cave!

[swiftsearcher]

I have included an image of a rock outside the entrance to a cave Ralph Hurst and I recently explored when he visited. I am hoping some here might be able to help us out. This cave actually has another "entrance" inside the main entrance that goes back toward one of Swift's Principal Mines (which is very close to this cave). The main entrance also is not visible from any distance whatsoever, unless you are at one of Swift's Mine's entrances and happen to look this way (which there is a "marker" Swift mentions on the clift directly above this cave's main entrance). I happened upon this cave a couple years back by accident, while I was at one of Swift's Principal mines taking pics of the marker.

The entrance inside this cave that seems to go back further is kinda small and we didn't enter it (due to snakes not being gone yet and wanting more information, as it looks risky). Anyway, I am thinking of going back and entering the smaller entrance soon and wanted to see if anyone has ANY detailed information whatsoever on the Great Cave?

I will tell you some about this cave and maybe it will ring a bell or one of you might have a journal (or other source) with more detailed information on the Great Cave. All the journals Ralph and I have or have viewed don't give any "specifics" on the Great Cave.

Also, if there is any individual here who might be an experienced "caver" with information about the Great Cave, I have narrowed the Great Cave down to two areas (with a third being a longshot, but possible). Please contact me at [email protected] and we might be able to work something out for your aid in helping us explore these possible sites!

First of all, this cave entrance is only visible (except when at the opening) from one of Swift's Mines. It is in the same section of clifts and appears to even go back toward this particular mine. One of Swift's "markers" is located on the top of the Clift above this cave entrance. The cave has a "spiral staircase" as you go down inside the opening - behind this "staircase" is the smaller opening seeming to go back to the mine. Outside the cave is this rock with the carvings shown on it. The top two seem to be two crosses. The middle four seem to be four crosses and the bottom carving is a bowie knife blade pointing toward the cave entrance. Below this rock, there also seems to be a "chamber" one could crawl in (once you are inside the cave). Again, we did not explore this "chamber" as of yet. We have assumptions that the Bowie Knife "points to treasure". Also, I thought the crosses (which to the Spanish seemed to have meant Church Treasure here) might be markings Swift and Co. made when they deposited Crowns/Bars inside the Great Cave (their storehouse for excess gold/silver they could not take back with them). Since there are six "crosses", this might mean that Swift and Co. deposited their "excess" here six times (or years). I believe the excess was deposited between the years of 1763-68, thus, accounting for the six crosses (I will go into detail where I arrived at this figure in my upcoming book).

Also, on the main ridge nearby (where I first came into this section from in the beginning), there is an Indian petroglyph in red. The image is a 12 ft. tall stick person with an arrow for the person's "privates" and the arrow is pointing in this general direction. Also, on the backside of this main ridge are several "cave openings" that could easily go through the ridge and might even intersect with a cave coming from the cave I mentioned! Also, further along the clift section the cave and mine are located, near the main ridge, I ran into several huge "chambers" while trying to get to the bottom of the clifts when I first located this area. In fact, I became stuck and had to pull myself up using a laurel bush (or fall 40+ ft.). Then, I found a set of Indian Stairsteps nearby later that day (that were between this clifty ridge and the main ridge).

From exploring most of this area (except some of the caves and the huge "chambers", I believe there might lie some HUGE cave system in this area. The only problem is going to be finding the small openings that are entrances into it (which I might need help with, if anyone can go through the week, again, contact me).

If anyone has any additional information about the Great Cave, feel free to post here or e-mail me at [email protected]. Or, if any of what I have described rings a bell, or, if you have any thoughts on the carvings. Thanks in advance!

 

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[Kentucky Kache]

Do you think the crosses might be a map of the cave system?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Looks like "Road Road Cipher" to me... DUNNO.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Thanks for the input so far guys. I never thought about this being a map of the cave system - that certainly stands to reason! I guess the only way to find out is to get inside the smaller entrance and explore (or find another entrance if needed).

Sorry Rebel, I don't know what you are referring to - "Road Road Cipher"

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MAYBE, it was called RR Track Cipher... will look it up; it MAY WELL be a MAP. Follow up on THAT "clue".
MAYBE, TWO levels... THEN, a "square" hole... DUNNO.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Rebel,

Thanks again for your input. I was in no way trying to be critical. I simply thought it might be some unfamiliar detecting jargon I wasn't accustomed to.

The "Square Hole" you have referred to might just be the chamber of the Great Cave where Swift walled up the cache!

On a ledge near the small opening inside the cave (that I believe might extend back toward one of the mines and be quite extensive), there is definitely a "blackened area". Ralph stated when I sent him the pics that it was probably where lanterns were placed. This would stand to reason, as one would have to get down on the ground to enter this smaller opening. Also, there are two large and one smaller stones that seem like they were "pulled down" to hide this opening (inside the cave again). My theory is this: IF these stones were pulled down to hide the small entrance, they were not done so very well, as all you have to do is climb over them, then get down on the ground and crawl into the small opening. This COULD have been done when Swift starting going blind, after killing the members with him when they went back to retrieve the cache from the cave!?

Again, I guess the only way is to explore the chamber under the carved rock (which is at the cave entrance) and go inside the small opening and see if it leads to a larger cave system. I have pics of Burrows coming out of his cave and the entrance is VERY SMALL. However, as we all know, the cave system was HUGE once inside. This seems to be how most of the original entrances to large cave systems were - very small and unoticeable in the beginning (as most tourist caves had small openings that people had to dynamite and open up to allow the public better access).

 

[swiftfan]

Ya know, the marks in the middle remind me of the number "5". One thru four, with a line through them makes five. The other two I don't really know about.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Can't find the one cipher, I am looking for... HOWEVER! It DOES look MORE like a "MAP". IF... you have a "small" cave system, at the "foot" of a mountain, at the RIDGE (TOP), is ANOTHER... LARGER cave system. ON THE OTHER SIDE, DOWN from THAT ridge, is the BIG! CACHE... POSSIBLY, the "square", walled-in GREAT CAVE. DUNNO... GOOD LUCK, HH!

 

[swiftsearcher]

You may be on to something Rebel! I discussed this possibility with Ralph before posting actually (but never thought the "crosses" might be a map of the cave then). Actually, this is a "ridge" of clifts that intersect with the main "ridge" - in a T formation. IF the Great Cave started here, it is possible it could go back toward the main ridge and actually go out the other side of the main ridge (thus, extending from one side of the mountain to the other). Plus, there are several unexplored caves on the main ridge I have seen from a distance (which could be other entrances). Then, there are the chambers that one can only repel into as well. I believe IF this is a cave system, it is VASTE! Also, there are no petroglyphs anywhere within a mile radius of this area, EXCEPT the one I mentioned on the main ridge. Evidently, this was an "important" area to the Shawnee for some reason!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Haven't read the journals, but wasn't there SOMETHING about the LOWER level, being "under water" or "flooded'? The BIG cave MAY be UNDERGROUND, somewhere... where it is DRY. Gotta look at the "water tables", too.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Rebel, I believe what you are referring to is Pigeon Water Cave. Some people touted the find at Pigeon Water Cave to be the Great Cave. However, it was not. Personally, I believe it to be Chief Cornstalk's cache, as there was a carving of a cornstalk on the outside of the cave. Also, Swift not only had Silver Crowns stored in the Great cave but Gold and Silver bars as well.

The rumors have it that Pigeon Water Cave flooded after some FL Treasure Hunters came up, thinking it was part of the Great Cave and dynamited the cave (trying to find another entrance or thinking the cave went in other directions). This led to the cave flooding. Also, there is suppose to be a Silver statue of an Indian or Melungeon still in the cave, as the people taking the crowns out supposedly couldn't carry the statue.

BTW - If nothing happens between now and tomorrow, I am going back with my fiance' to explore this cave one more time and hopefully see if the small inside entrance behind the spiral staircase leads anywhere. I will let everyone know. If it doesn't, I am going to have to try and find another entrance (or at least explore the other caves close by) and look at another site I have a map showing the location (which is a different site than this one). I will simply go about this as I did when I found Swift's Mines - by process of elimination (elimating possible sites/areas until I find the Great Cave).

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TREASURE HUNTING & FREEMASONRY...

Gonna give a "presentation" to members of my "research lodge", tonight
(Allied Masonic Degrees - James River Council); For pp "interested... "google" FREEMASONRY & SWIFT'S SILVER MINE(S) 30,200 "HITS"

 

[swiftsearcher]

Rebel, that would be REALLY INTERESTING! Wish I was there to hear your presentation.

I know some people have written books/articles that Swift never actually existed or mined Silver (which I know is false from my findings). However, there IS a Masonic tie to Swift other than the Silver Mines simply being a "fanciful Masonic Tale". As some of you are aware, Swift had CLOSE ties to George Washington. Swift fought with Washington in battle and even created the Washington Society. Since Washington was perhaps America's most famous Mason, one would assume Swift definitely had ties to the Masons. Swift also uses some Masonic "ties" in his journals, the best example is when he states he marked some trees near a cache he left with a compass and trowell. I was able to find the "small blue rock" Swift marked in this area. However, the trees nearby are long gone. It would have been interesting to have seen the "interesting marks" Swift referred to (that he marked with compass and trowell). One would bet they very well could have been Masonic Symbols!

Again, good luck tonight with your presentation Rebel - Wish I was there!

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Swiftsearcher, I wish I lived closer to the area, It would be great to explore with you. Be careful out there.

 

[swiftsearcher]

CC, I wish you lived closer as well! Believe it or not, it is extremely difficult finding someone to go out with me in the field. As close as I am to the Great Cave, it seems there would be people lining up wanting to go.

I didn't get to go this morning, as I was rained out. I have a Doctor's appt. tomorrow, so I will probably go Thursday (Lord willing). I don't go Fri.-Sun. due to the amount of people in the woods (drinking, hunting, being nosy, etc.).

I have made some great finds so far. However, the Silver caches are long gone - that is probably why people aren't interested. However, I still believe the Silver/Gold in the Great Cave is the only Swift Cache that has not been found! I know my fiance' (who can climb mountains and explore much better than I) has went with me a few times. However, when she found out that the Silver Caches were gone, she lost interest. We did find a HUGE SMELTER however one day exploring. It was between Swift's two Smelter rockhouses and VERY ANCIENT. I believe it was probably used by the Shawnee long before Swift (of course, I have pics of it - it is at least a hundred times larger than the smelter Hensen had in one of his books!).

The only bad thing is that there is so much terrain to cover (and it is rocky and full of laurel) that one really is looking for a needle in a haystack - especially when it comes to finding the Great Cave (as there just isn't much info. on it!). Plus, I still believe the entrance(s) is/are going to be really small, as the Cherokee could never find it when the Shawnee sent their women and children in the Great Cave during wars with the Cherokee.

I have narrowed the search down to three locations (one is a "last resort" and the other two are very probable). Again, it will take some searching however!

 

[Kentucky Kache]

If I could retire today, I would be there tomorrow. Maybe when I get a couple of bills paid off...

How difficult is it getting permission?

 

[swiftsearcher]

Permission was actually real easy!

 

[cavers5]

Just to clarify some facts on Pigeon Water Cave-- 1. There is no carving of a cornstalk on the outside of the cave. 2. There is a story that locals dynamited the second sump because they could not get through the narrow water-filled crack. It was not people from Florida.
3. There is no known statue still in the cave. 4. The coins were not crowns, but Spanish reales, along with some "supposedly" counterfeit tokens. I say "supposedly counterfeit" because I have not personally seen those and was told that by the finder. The finder does not have the tokens anymore as he/she was told they were counterfeit and so did not retain those particular coins/tokens.

Cavers5

 

[swiftsearcher]

Cavers5, thanks for the clarification! It seems Mike Steely was incorrect in his article and in quoting you as well, as Mike stated you stated the people from FL blasted at the area (the link to Steely's article is below - I also have two copies of the magazine as well).

http://www.elkhorncity.org/bill.htm

As for my other statements that I didn't go into detail about (not taken from Steely's article), they came first hand with a phone interview I had with a reknown Swift expert. Evidently this expert knows a lot about the find and was friends with a person he mentioned to me who first found the Silver in Pigeon Water Cave. Although he didn't tell me the man's name, he did give me some specific info. about him and state the man who originally found the Silver at Pigeon Water is now dead (when he stated the man was the one of the "original finders" of the Silver, he did not (or would not) confirm if it is the man you spoke of and Steely wrote about.

Again, as far as the information I stated on here, most of it came from Steely's article, as anyone can see who follows the link. Above, I gave a "brief" story about what I have found out on my own above, but will have more details in my book. Thanks again Cavers5 for clarifying some facts that seem to be incorrect in Mr. Steely's article (even though I wasn't going to quote them in my book - just do a Chapter about my interview and what I learned beyond what is publicly known).

 

[swiftsearcher]

BTW - Since Cavers5 has stated there was no Cornstalk carving at Pigeon Water Cave (as Mr. Steely stated in his article), I will now go back to my original opinion that the Silver was Sol Mullins' stash/cache. When I first heard the Silver statue described, I immediately thought it was of a Melungeon. Also, the Silver "coins" not being Crowns would lead me away from Cornstalk as well (afterall, if Cornstalk helped Swift and Co., he would have been paid in Crowns).

BTW - Does anyone have any additional detail of the Silver statue? Or, even better, has anyone seen it or have a pic of it?