National Forest, in Utah, is it legal to metal detect?

[prospexican]

well excuse my English, i know that it is not legal to prospect/ metal detect in a National Park, but i don't Know The difference between a national Forest and a national Park, I was Invited To Utah this coming weekend, feb/13/2015 ibeen getting lost of experience with different metal detectors, but specially with 2 box detectors, and others, a few days ago was my lucky day, i won a tesoro tejon on a raffle and bought a fisher CZ-20 for $ 250 locally, a sand scoop for $20 from the same guy lol. well we just got a TDI whit my partner and i love it, haven't take it to the field yet buy some testing we did we like the way it performs, any way please let me know if there is any legal problems to prospect with metal detectors in Utah National Forest, thanks in advance folks.

 

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[bigscoop]

I'd say far more regulatory action has been taken against our hobby due to the "screw the law" types then has ever been taken due to the "asking first" types. And for me, this pretty much closes the debate/issue.

 

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[bigscoop]

If you are asking what the law is then yes you are not saying "screw the law" If you are asking and do not care about the law ,but only want allowance to detect, then you might be saying "screw the law" A person could probably get by with a "screw the law " attitude in the latter instance but they are still saying "screw the law"

"Know the laws and respect them." If everybody does then there can be no problems.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I'd say far more regulatory action has been taken against our hobby due to the "screw the law" types ....

I would agree with what you say here Bigscoop. But read closely, and you will see that what I've said in no way contradicts this. Because if, as you say "regulatory action" took place because someone was out in the middle of nowhere detecting, then my stance (of "does anyone *really* care?) would NOT apply. Because in that case, if as you say "regulatory action" resulted, THEN YES: "someone cared". Thus I would agree with you NOT to detect where it's going to be a problem.

Also an oddity in your above quote: If "regulatory action" were enacted to disallow md'ing (as you warn about), then think of the implication of that: That would mean that PRIOR to that "regulatory action", that no rules against md'ing existed in that location. [Otherwise, what's the need to enact legislation, if it were already prohibited?]

Therefore, the person in your example would have been md'ing a place where there was no law to the contrary. Thus your statement sort of implodes on itself.

 

[bigscoop]

I would agree with what you say here Bigscoop. But read closely, and you will see that what I've said in no way contradicts this. Because if, as you say "regulatory action" took place because someone was out in the middle of nowhere detecting, then my stance (of "does anyone *really* care?) would NOT apply. Because in that case, if as you say "regulatory action" resulted, THEN YES: "someone cared". Thus I would agree with you NOT to detect where it's going to be a problem.

Also an oddity in your above quote: If "regulatory action" were enacted to disallow md'ing (as you warn about), then think of the implication of that: That would mean that PRIOR to that "regulatory action", that no rules against md'ing existed in that location. [Otherwise, what's the need to enact legislation, if it were already prohibited?]

Therefore, the person in your example would have been md'ing a place where there was no law to the contrary. Thus your statement sort of implodes on itself.

.....Ok. Twist them however you like. Me? I'm researching, asking, covering all the bases that can or know how to cover. You do as you must.

 

[huntsman53]

You all have put great input into this post. Especially Clay diggins. To dissect rules, laws, regulations, etc..... But Jim in Idaho puts another slant on all the legalese minutia debate. I truly think that a LOT of our answers/issues/questions about these questions, would be solved with the following question: "Does anyone care?". Rather than "What does a lawyer and legal beavers conclude to this 'pressing question'?"

Because I can think of a lot of places where, just like NFS land (whether east or west coast NFS, of whatever sub-type you want to disect it to), can, in fact, net you a "no", if you asked long enough, hard enough, of enough bureaucrats, lawyers, etc... Just throw in a few key words like "dig", "cultural", "treasure", and "deface" and "indian bone", And SURE, you can find yourself a "no" ANYWHERE on earth.

So to me, I'm like Jim: I do not overly concern myself with such minutia that other's have gone before us to find, and print here in wonderful links, etc... I go by the "does anyone care?" rule-of-thumb. If it's a place where no one cares, then presto, no one cares. Why argue with that?

And with that said: Let's be dreadfully honest: Is anyone really out in the middle of nowhere, in the forests, deserts, etc... who give a hoot? Probably not. So to me, such verbage was meant to protect obvious historic sensitive monuments.

I care because I do not want to risk the confiscation of any of my' metal detectors and possible forfeiture in Court! Back in the 80's, the NFS started ticketing riders of 3 and 4 wheelers in the National Forests in West Virginia who took them off designated trails. After posting a notice, they began giving out tickets and confiscating 3 and 4 wheels which the owner usually got back after going to Court and paying the fines and Court costs. After constant violations, mostly by the same people, they then would ticket them, confiscate their' 3 or 4 wheeler which was fortfeited in Court. Knowing how the NFS and the USDA tend to not advertise new Regulations and Laws and/or make them readily available for Users of the National Forests to see, I am not taking any chances. If you want to risk losing a $500 or $2,500 Metal Detector, then that is up to you!


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

That's my old stomping grounds Frank! Beautiful country. I processed manganese dioxide ore there for a couple of years in the 1969/70s time frame.

That's the Cherokee Purchase Unit. One of the original from 1912. Weeks Law purchased lands - not Organic National Forest. A perfect example of why the eastern forests don't have anything in common with the public land forests in the west. Different laws, different rules different regulations. Managed by the Forest Service but not public lands or Organic Act Forests.

This is why the Purchase Units under the Weeks law don't follow National Forest laws.


That's the Minard Run Oil case and it reaffirmed the miner's rights to the minerals to be superior to purchased surface rights to "forests". Really important and interesting case for the miner. It was the case that broke the "Sue and Settle" tactics of the greenie groups. It was one of their greatest losses and one of the greatest wins for miners.

It's also explains why the eastern forests aren't managed under the National Forest laws or regulations. Most of those "forests" are still private property or the mineral rights weren't sold along with the over logged surface. These are not public lands that can be legally prospected or claimed. Recreation by regulation is the only form of public "prospecting" and even that is severely limited because the government often doesn't own the ground the "forest" stands on.

93% of the Allegheny "National Forest" is still owned by oil companies. 0% of the western Organic National Forests are owned by anybody but the American people. Think about that.

Having never been public lands these Purchase Units have their own laws based on use of government property rather than National Forest laws. Forests in name only.

I'm working on a series of maps that will show these differences. I think everyone will be surprised at what they reveal about these Weeks Act Purchase Units.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the real Public Land National Forests found in Utah.

Apples and Oranges

Heavy Pans

Clay,

Thanks for the information and clarifying the difference between the National Forests of the West and the Weeks Act Purchased land here in the East! I knew absolutely nothing about the so-called NF lands here being Weeks Act Purchased lands. That explains alot and why they don't follow many of the NFS Regulations and Policies. I wonder if this explains how an old friend of mine (God Bless his' soul as he passed on many years ago) in West Virginia was able to trade, buy and sell probably a quarter of a million acres or more of land over many years to and from the NFS??!! When he died, he probably owned 200,000 acres or more spanding 4 or 5 counties in the Northern Mountains and Potomac Highlands of West Virginia and I had permission to hunt every inch it when he was alive except for the 500 acres across the road from his' home where he fed Deer, Turkey and even sometimes Black Bear. I wonder if trading, buying and selling land to and from the NFS could even happen in the West with the National Forests there??!!


Frank

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I care because I do not want to risk the confiscation of any of my' metal detectors and possible forfeiture in Court! Back in the 80's, the NFS started ticketing riders of 3 and 4 wheelers in the National Forests in West Virginia who took them off designated trails....

Frank, then that's a case of "someone caring". Then sure, by all means ALL of us would/will avoid doing things that result in foreitures, tickets, fines, etc..... I'm not talking about places like that. I'm talking about places where no such things like that are going to happen.

You're citing examples of "people caring". Thus outside the scope of what I said.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Frank, then that's a case of "someone caring". Then sure, by all means ALL of us would/will avoid doing things that result in foreitures, tickets, fines, etc..... I'm not talking about places like that. I'm talking about places where no such things like that are going to happen.

You're citing examples of "people caring". Thus outside the scope of what I said.

It is simple, if it's legal hunt it, if it's not legal don't hunt it.

Topic has run course, thread is locked.