Are you ready to fight for your hobby yet?

[Rangerbb]

I don't know about you but I'm tired of this crap:


Good morning,
I have copied and pasted what our law enforcement has sent me about metal detecting on the Francis Marion and Sumter National Forests:



"The simple answer to this question requires some complicated explanation.

The act of metal "detecting" is not prohibited on National Forest lands in South Carolina. The important part of this answer is the word "detecting". Someone can use a metal detector on National Forest lands in South Carolina; HOWEVER, that is the extent of what is allowed - detecting - no digging, no removal.

--- The American Antiquities Act of 1906 basically prohibits disturbance (digging) and removal of relics and artifacts on federal lands.

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any person who shall appropriate, excavate, injure, or destroy any historic or prehistoric ruin or monument, or any object of antiquity, situated on lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States, without the permission of the Secretary of the Department of the Government having jurisdiction over the lands on which said antiquities are situated, shall, upon conviction, be fined in a sum of not more than five hundred dollars or be imprisoned for a period of not more than ninety days, or shall suffer both fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court. "

--- There is also the National Historic Preservation Act which is intended to protect cultural resources -

This act supplements the provisions of the Antiquities Act of 1906. The law makes it illegal to destroy, excavate or remove information from Federal or Indian lands any archeological resources without a permit from the land manager. Permits may be issued only to educational or scientific institutions and only if the resulting activities will increase knowledge about archeological resources. Regulations for the ultimate disposition of materials recovered as a result of permitted activities state that archeological resources excavated on public lands remain the property of the United States. Archeological resources excavated from Indian lands remain the property of the Indian or Indian tribe having rights of ownership over such resources.

--- The Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 also applies:

The term "archaeological resource" means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under section 470cc of this title, a permit referred to in section 470cc(h)(2) of this title, or the exemption contained in section 470cc(g)(1) of this title.

--- Even if the above laws did not specifically apply, there are also prohibitions found in Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Section 261.9 deals with Forest Service property. Except for some very narrowly defined instances, items located by metal detecting on Forest Service lands are technically government property; therefore, you may not damage, dig, disturb, remove, etc., any such government property without authorization. This includes surface collecting as well as digging.

§ 261.9 Property.
The following are prohibited:

(a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States.

(b) Removing any natural feature or other property of the United States.

(c) Damaging any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sensitive, rare, or unique species.

(d) Removing any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sensitive, rare, or unique species.

(e) Entering any building, structure, or enclosed area owned or controlled by the United States when such building, structure, or enclosed area is not open to the public.

(f) Using any pesticide except for personal use as an insect repellent or as provided by special-use authorization for other minor uses.

(g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, or property.

(h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, property.

(i) Excavating, damaging, or removing any vertebrate fossil or removing any paleontological resource for commercial purposes without a special use authorization.

(j) Excavating, damaging, or removing any cave resource from a cave without a special use authorization, or removing any cave resource for commercial purposes.

----------------

So, the answer to the question is that metal detecting itself is not prohibited as long as whatever is detected is not dug, disturbed, or removed."


I hope this helps and please don't hesitate to contact us if you have further questions.
Thank you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, I trying to find out if Metal Detecting is allowed in Sumter National Forest? I found this link saying it is for National Forests, but I could not find anything on the regional website stating so:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

Thank you for your time.

R

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Kathleen,

Thank you for providing the information, however I'm not sure how any of these laws such as the Antiquities Act and Archaeological Proctection Act have anything to do with recreational metal detecting. Recreational metal detecting as stated on the USDA.gov link is "activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of little historical value".

Also states that "Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources.. Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are open to recreational metal detecting unless there are archaeological or historical resources present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal detecting and the closure would be posted at the site."

So with that information and this quote "Metal detecting is a low surface impact activity that involves digging small holes rarely more than six inches deep." on Non archeological or historical sites should this not be ok?

Thank you,

P.S - If you have the contact info for the law enforcement you spoke to may I have it?

R

 

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[dholland02]

Every state has this set of rules for state ground. This why with state ground such game lands you just go and hunt it. Unless its a historical state place. I've hunted numerous state game lands where I found old clear holes when I was a logger.

This is why you don't ask state for permission. You only need permission from private land owners IMO. Even townships have rules such as that too.

I was once told by a Forrester when I was still logging that, I could not run over the moss on the rocks. Needless to say I laughed at him and kept working.

 

[49er12]

Yeah this very trying to say the least, I do try to understand whats the option available to people like us. We are not in cemetaries and delicate area's. Gee whiz Im in western, Pa next to Ohio there are a lot oc civil war sites on the other sside of state I don't believe they allow searching in those area's Im not a lawyer but Im a open minded person. I did here in SC there are strict than most is that true, I have family living in the gilbert area in SC and in midway, Ga I will have to ask what the deal is. My friend its goofy in one park here you can search but they say if the value is over a certain range they want to no. In ending Im trying not to get mad and cuss be dam it the people have to stand up, but as you can see people are generally weak just look how they let the government and the phony politicians have there way, no back bone simple as that good day.

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

I'm all for the preservation of archeological sites of importance, but these laws and regs are obsurd. Unfortunately, they are becoming more and more common. It's our responsibility to represent our hobby as a healthy, educational, friendly, and ethical endeavor. A few bad apples have ruined so many great sites for those of us who practice responsible and ethical detecting. For God's sake, fill your holes people, please!

 

[Rangerbb]

Every state has this set of rules for state ground. This why with state ground such game lands you just go and hunt it. Unless its a historical state place. I've hunted numerous state game lands where I found old clear holes when I was a logger.

This is why you don't ask state for permission. You only need permission from private land owners IMO. Even townships have rules such as that too.

I was once told by a Forrester when I was still logging that, I could not run over the moss on the rocks. Needless to say I laughed at him and kept working.

Well this is Federal land owned by the public (although you would have a hard time believing that with there response)...National Forest. I know what SC state parks allow regarding metal detecting which not any better either. But your idea of just metal detecting without any ok or something in writing in these type of places is just asking for trouble. As you can see above they will throw the book at you with American Antiquities Act of 1906, National Historic Preservation Act, Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 etc. even if they have nothing to do with what you were doing. That's some serious jail time etc.

 

[creade]

I know in nh,the white mountain national forest is off limits.Thats where the "silver madonna" is supposed to be. I think they don't allow detecting for the simple reason that,if they did,it would look like the surface of the moon.

 

[Terry Soloman]

The following is straight up opinion and may offend some people. It is not intended to insult any poster on this thread or forum...

Come on folks, use some common sense. Either you have the smarts to detect when and where you want to - or you don't. Some of us ask our Federal and State governments for permission to use OUR lands, then whine and moan when they say "no." Some of us don't ask, and we don't tell. You have to make up your mind what you are going to do and where you are going to do it. Part of that decision making process, is deciding if you are intelligent enough not to get caught committing a felony or misdemeanor, and whether or not you are willing to defend yourself if you're caught. We will never agree as a unified body of hobbyists as to what we should do (heck we can’t even agree that coil covers make sense!), or come together in a meaningful financial way to pay for lobbyists, so hey – Do Your Thing and Stop Whining!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I don't know about you but I'm tired of this crap:


Good morning,
I have copied and pasted what our law enforcement has sent me about metal detecting on the Francis Marion and Sumter National Forests:



"The simple answer to this question requires some complicated explanation.

The act of metal "detecting" is not prohibited on National Forest lands in South Carolina. The important part of this answer is the word "detecting". Someone can use a metal detector on National Forest lands in South Carolina; HOWEVER, that is the extent of what is allowed - detecting - no digging, no removal.

--- The American Antiquities Act of 1906 basically prohibits disturbance (digging) and removal of relics and artifacts on federal lands.

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any person who shall appropriate, excavate, injure, or destroy any historic or prehistoric ruin or monument, or any object of antiquity, situated on lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States, without the permission of the Secretary of the Department of the Government having jurisdiction over the lands on which said antiquities are situated, shall, upon conviction, be fined in a sum of not more than five hundred dollars or be imprisoned for a period of not more than ninety days, or shall suffer both fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court. "

--- There is also the National Historic Preservation Act which is intended to protect cultural resources -

This act supplements the provisions of the Antiquities Act of 1906. The law makes it illegal to destroy, excavate or remove information from Federal or Indian lands any archeological resources without a permit from the land manager. Permits may be issued only to educational or scientific institutions and only if the resulting activities will increase knowledge about archeological resources. Regulations for the ultimate disposition of materials recovered as a result of permitted activities state that archeological resources excavated on public lands remain the property of the United States. Archeological resources excavated from Indian lands remain the property of the Indian or Indian tribe having rights of ownership over such resources.

--- The Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 also applies:

The term "archaeological resource" means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under section 470cc of this title, a permit referred to in section 470cc(h)(2) of this title, or the exemption contained in section 470cc(g)(1) of this title.

--- Even if the above laws did not specifically apply, there are also prohibitions found in Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Section 261.9 deals with Forest Service property. Except for some very narrowly defined instances, items located by metal detecting on Forest Service lands are technically government property; therefore, you may not damage, dig, disturb, remove, etc., any such government property without authorization. This includes surface collecting as well as digging.

§ 261.9 Property.
The following are prohibited:

(a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States.

(b) Removing any natural feature or other property of the United States.

(c) Damaging any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sensitive, rare, or unique species.

(d) Removing any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sensitive, rare, or unique species.

(e) Entering any building, structure, or enclosed area owned or controlled by the United States when such building, structure, or enclosed area is not open to the public.

(f) Using any pesticide except for personal use as an insect repellent or as provided by special-use authorization for other minor uses.

(g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, or property.

(h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, property.

(i) Excavating, damaging, or removing any vertebrate fossil or removing any paleontological resource for commercial purposes without a special use authorization.

(j) Excavating, damaging, or removing any cave resource from a cave without a special use authorization, or removing any cave resource for commercial purposes.

----------------

So, the answer to the question is that metal detecting itself is not prohibited as long as whatever is detected is not dug, disturbed, or removed."


I hope this helps and please don't hesitate to contact us if you have further questions.
Thank you.

----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------

Hello, I trying to find out if Metal Detecting is allowed in Sumter National Forest? I found this link saying it is for National Forests, but I could not find anything on the regional website stating so:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

Thank you for your time.

R

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------


Kathleen,

Thank you for providing the information, however I'm not sure how any of these laws such as the Antiquities Act and Archaeological Proctection Act have anything to do with recreational metal detecting. Recreational metal detecting as stated on the USDA.gov link is "activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of little historical value".

Also states that "Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources.. Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are open to recreational metal detecting unless there are archaeological or historical resources present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal detecting and the closure would be posted at the site."

So with that information and this quote "Metal detecting is a low surface impact activity that involves digging small holes rarely more than six inches deep." on Non archeological or historical sites should this not be ok?

Thank you,

P.S - If you have the contact info for the law enforcement you spoke to may I have it?

R

RangerBB, are we ready to "fight for our hobby" ? Are you aware of why stuff like what that bureaucrat cited to you, is being quoted as applying to md'ing ? No, it's not "holes" as oxbobarefoot says. It's because well-meaning people, way-back-when (1970s, 80s, 90s) did exactly as you've just now done: Gone and asked "can I?".

Seems reasonable enough, right? Who better to ask, than the powers-that-be themselves, eh? But lo & behold, your "pressing question" gets passed back and forth between multiple desks: Archies, arborists, lawyers, etc... Till at last they give their princely answer. And I bet prior to that, md'rs were ignored (as long as you weren't snooping around at sensitive monuments).

So all I can say is: Welcome to the "no one cared till you asked club". Keep it up, and then yes: you'll have to fight for your hobby even more. Why didn't you just read that link that said you CAN detect (that you yourself already found) and simply go ? Why argue with a yes? As for the "disturbing" and "altering" and "destroying" verbage, fine, don't 'destroy' or 'alter' anything (cover your holes). And as for the rest of the archaeological stuff, well fine then, you're only finding new stuff .

 

[Rangerbb]

Well Tom and others, you may not agree with me asking for understanding of these confusing/ridiculous laws in place regarding metal detecting in the national forest (this is not like your local tot lot afterall there are some serious fines/jail time they could put on you) but lets face it you sitting around like sheep letting these people bring new laws into place every year regarding metal detecting is not helping either. I think it is clear that these people's goal is to ban metal detecting completely and they keep chipping away piece by piece but you are ok with this? "there is always other places to metal detect" I hear this all the time but really this is not true and less every year. It is also quite clear these people can even spin their own paperwork into a negative as evident by the answer to their own work.

I would rather protest these ridculous laws really who would put a law together that would allow metal detecting but not actually understand the whole point of what metal detecting is?
So how about metal detecting folks get out there with the gun rights people and gold miners they seem to be doing better than us. Are you saying they should act like sheep too?

 

[Terry Soloman]

..So how about metal detecting folks get out there with the gun rights people and gold miners they seem to be doing better than us. Are you saying they should act like sheep too?

I'm saying, don't waste your time hunting windmills. Spend your time metal detecting while you can.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

..... you may not agree with me asking for understanding of these confusing/ridiculous laws in place........

Rangerbb, it's very "telling" that you say these laws that you found, and that they cited you as applying to your question are: "confusing/ridiculous". By that are we to infer that those things you found DID NOT specifically say "no metal detecting". Right? Because if they had said specifically that, well then by definition, they wouldn't be "confusing", right?

Then here's my answer: if there's odd-ball cultural heritage things, taking & collecting things, defacement and alteration things, YET NOTHING SPECIFIC that said "no metal detecting", then no, I do not take those "confusing" things to necessarily mean: No metal detecting. Because rangerbb, you have to understand something: laws are purposefully written vaguely ALL THE TIME, so as to fit a myriad of circumstances that may arise in the field. For example: Laws that forbid "annoyances".

Is that to say that someone might not come up and "tell you otherwise" ? SURE! Fine. Then give lip service and move on. But no, it doesn't mean to go up to cops and rangers ahead of time and ask: "can I dig holes, annoy people, and steal public park historical features for my own fun and enjoyment?" So again: look it up for yourself. If it's not specifically prohibiting metal detecting, the PRESTO, it's "not prohibited".

......there are some serious fines/jail time they could put on you.......

rangerbb, please cite for us anyone who faced "serious fines/jail time" for md'ing in NFS land. If you can find any such example, it will no doubt be someone snooping around obvious historic sensitive sites, or someone who couldn't take a warning, etc.... I bet even THEN you'd have to look long & hard for any examples. Why then do you think that "archies lurk behind every tree like navy commando seals waiting to prounce on md'rs" ?

... sitting around like sheep letting these people bring new laws into place every year regarding metal detecting .... I think it is clear that these people's goal is to ban metal detecting completely and they keep chipping away piece by piece ........... I would rather protest these ridculous laws.....

Ranger, the above quotes all fail to realize one very big fact: The only reason most specific prohibitions came out (or ancillary things being told apply to the act-of-detecting) is because of md'rs THEMSELVES making themselves a giant red "x" . In need of those people's princely sanctions, say-so's, and interpretations. Via letters and questions to them, much like yours. Not saying all rules start that way, but a heck of a lot of them are for no other reason than people who show up at desk-bound bureaucrats desks (or send emails, letters, etc...) asking "can I?" when perhaps those very persons would never have given the matter a moment's thought.

.... get out there with the gun rights people and gold miners they seem to be doing better than us....

There already is lobbying groups for md'rs . The FMDAC is one such example. The trouble is though, that md'ing is a niche hobby, with relatively few hobbyists. Unlike guns and hunting, of which there tons of hobbyists. Tons of people own guns. Hence they have the $$-power to hire much more lawyers, lobbyists, etc.. And sure: fight in-place specific laws that truly and specifically did say "no metal detectors". But no, don't "fight" the grey and confusing wording that isn't specific. LEST YOU MERELY OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS to get silly things applied to your "pressing questions".

 

[Msbeepbeep]

I had this insane thing happen to me. I was detecting at a town beach/park that I had detected twice before in full view of the local law enforcement, they in fact saw me earlier this day too when they were yelling at a woman because her kids threw bread down for the birds (that should have been my first hint).

I was done and heading back to the truck detecting when a police car comes speeding up & stops in front of me. he leans out & says to me "It is illegal to dig & remove anything from town property, but you can detect all you want". As he tells me this I am watching in the back ground "on town property" 4 people digging and removing buckets of clams,a boy digging for shells with his dog. Yet I am the bad guy because I have a detector and just may dig up a coin or two & the town's trash and remove it. A little insanity goes a long way!

 

[creade]

I had this insane thing happen to me. I was detecting at a town beach/park that I had detected twice before in full view of the local law enforcement, they in fact saw me earlier this day too when they were yelling at a woman because her kids threw bread down for the birds (that should have been my first hint).

I was done and heading back to the truck detecting when a police car comes speeding up & stops in front of me. he leans out & says to me "It is illegal to dig & remove anything from town property, but you can detect all you want". As he tells me this I am watching in the back ground "on town property" 4 people digging and removing buckets of clams,a boy digging for shells with his dog. Yet I am the bad guy because I have a detector and just may dig up a coin or two & the town's trash and remove it. A little insanity goes a long way!

That's when you ask them why is it OK to take shells but not trash. Throw it back in there court, see what they say.

 

[cmaracing]

Not exactly what u talking about but it still fall into the category of getting screwed, I love Metal Detecting, hell I even consider myself an Explorer/Armchair Archaeologist, I respect my finds and do my my best to preserve my finds and do research on what I find, I have sold some stuff to fund a trip or equipment.
Now what drives me crazy is that Archaeologist look at Dirt Hunters and Armchair Archaeologist as if where stealing history but in realty its all the stuff being destroyed by urban development and expansion and forgery's, every time I'm on one of many websites or at a "shop/auction house/flee-markets/dirt hunting " I come across fakes not just coins but relic's and much more I'm at the point that 5-10% of stuff is either faked or enhanced but the market for fakes continues to expand, I found a good looking Chines coin the other day, 1700s and its a fake I go to the local pawn-store there are fakes I was at an auction house in Boston saw a fake told the guy I think its a fake and he looks at me as if, where is my Degree in artifacts and sold it, But I'm the bad guy, and don't get me started on the government and every time you find something of value, it must have been stolen from the mint "really" well you never in the last 100 years looked for it, and now its yours lol I feel like asking did you file a police report....
I could go on forever but whats the point, I have been hunting in many parts of the world usually with friends in that particular country, i love how England does it, it gives you market value for major finds helping preserve finds and being able to display it.......
In the end they think we are digging graves of there late relative they forget the first Archaeologist where Armchair hobbyist and explorers, but as long as auction houses, government and universities make money and don't forget the forgery's we just cant compete.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I had this insane thing happen to me. I was detecting at a town beach/park that I had detected twice before in full view of the local law enforcement, they in fact saw me earlier this day too when they were yelling at a woman because her kids threw bread down for the birds (that should have been my first hint).

I was done and heading back to the truck detecting when a police car comes speeding up & stops in front of me. he leans out & says to me "It is illegal to dig & remove anything from town property, but you can detect all you want". As he tells me this I am watching in the back ground "on town property" 4 people digging and removing buckets of clams,a boy digging for shells with his dog. Yet I am the bad guy because I have a detector and just may dig up a coin or two & the town's trash and remove it. A little insanity goes a long way!

msbeepbeep, I'm betting that the reason this cop was so informed and aware (and perhaps had a "B.O.L." for those dastardly md'rs) is because persons before you had gone to him and/or his superiors asking "can I?". If any of those persons digging clams had also gone in ahead of time asking: "Hi, can I 'dig holes' and 'take things' from the beach please?" They too would have been told "no". So shame on them for not asking ! And the lesson is ..... ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Not exactly what u talking about but it still fall into the category of getting screwed, I love Metal Detecting, hell I even consider myself an Explorer/Armchair Archaeologist, I respect my finds and do my my best to preserve my finds and do research on what I find, I have sold some stuff to fund a trip or equipment.
Now what drives me crazy is that Archaeologist look at Dirt Hunters and Armchair Archaeologist as if where stealing history but in realty its all the stuff being destroyed by urban development and expansion and forgery's, every time I'm on one of many websites or at a "shop/auction house/flee-markets/dirt hunting " I come across fakes not just coins but relic's and much more I'm at the point that 5-10% of stuff is either faked or enhanced but the market for fakes continues to expand, I found a good looking Chines coin the other day, 1700s and its a fake I go to the local pawn-store there are fakes I was at an auction house in Boston saw a fake told the guy I think its a fake and he looks at me as if, where is my Degree in artifacts and sold it, But I'm the bad guy, and don't get me started on the government and every time you find something of value, it must have been stolen from the mint "really" well you never in the last 100 years looked for it, and now its yours lol I feel like asking did you file a police report....
I could go on forever but whats the point, I have been hunting in many parts of the world usually with friends in that particular country, i love how England does it, it gives you market value for major finds helping preserve finds and being able to display it.......
In the end they think we are digging graves of there late relative they forget the first Archaeologist where Armchair hobbyist and explorers, but as long as auction houses, government and universities make money and don't forget the forgery's we just cant compete.

which is EXACTLY why the less those archie know of, or hear about me ..... THE BETTER. Less visibility is best, not more, when it comes to purist archies.

 

[Rangerbb]

Ok now that I've had chance to cool off some steam I just want to apologize for my outburst... Tom you have good points for sure and maybe a more wiser person than I in this regard. If it helps any I wasn't the first to ask about metal detecting at this national forest. The lady mentioned she has been sending out the same old information to metal detectorists for years. They won't even acknowledge Regulation 36 CFR 228.4a which is on their website and completely relates to metal detecting (the link I posted). Instead they spin off regulations prohibiting digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging archaelogical/historic sites. And this refers to the entire forest...I guess it's ok to disturb, injure, destroy the ground artifacts with the gun ranges/hunters (bullets hitting everything), camping (those nasty tent pegs), atv's cutting trails, but when it comes to metal detecting oh the horror.

Also apparently they do not tell the public where archeological sites are located so you may not know if your in one and wouldn't know if digging a artifact or not... Apparently the American citizen can not be trusted. Least in countries such as England the people are given the chance to be trust worthy. If someone finds a historic treasure they are rewarded and it goes to a museum for the public to see and everybodys happy. That would never happen with the laws on the books here.

Anyways I've left their response at that since there is no point in me convincing these people. Unfornatunely I'm just a drop in the bucket. You may have read another thread I made about helping archies...I try to be understanding to why these laws are in place and what they do but it is frustrating to say the least when I just want to enjoy this wonderful hobby without being looked at as a criminal.

 

[Clay Diggins]

36 CFR 228.4a are part of the regulations for locatable minerals under the 1872 Mining Act. 36 CFR 228.4a has nothing to do with hunting for coins, treasure or relics. Wrong book and page.

Part of the problem you are having is that the area you want to hunt is not a National Forest in it's traditional sense. It is a 1911 Weeks Act Purchase Unit approved for potential purchase in 1928 by the National Forest Reservation Commission. These purchase units are not the same as the National Forests found in the Western United States that were created from existing public lands under the 1897 Organic Act. Weeks Act "Forests" are acquired land and do not have the same status as public lands.

The lands found within the Purchase Unit are not necessarily owned by the US in "fee simple" but are a partial bundle of rights. Often the original land owners reserved the rights to the minerals and/or timber found on the land. It's not uncommon that the lands within a purchase unit are on long term lease to the US or even have never been purchased from the land owners.

I don't know specifically about the Francis Marion or the Sumter Purchase Units but I have studied other Purchase Units and often they are still more than 50% in private hands. Land owners in Purchase Units are not required to sell their lands to the US and often choose not to. Additionally every penny used to purchase these lands within the unit has to be approved by Congress. Often there is not enough money in the allocation to buy the entire lands within the unit even if there are willing sellers.

Much of the land in many of these Purchase Units are former logged over company tracts. The original purchase was a "gimme" for the forestry companies so they could move on after ruining the potential for further logging of the area through mismanagement. They were government bailouts of failed industries. The Marion and Sumter units were no exception. See the Tuxbury Lumber and Terpentine operations that were the foundation of Marion and Sumter for an excellent example of this practice.

The use of Forest Service employees is a bit of a ruse designed to confuse the issue of the status of these Purchase Units. Since often the land within the boundary of the "National Forest" Purchase Unit does not belong to the United States administration becomes a nightmare for both the Forest Service personnel and for the local residents. Visitors want to know the rules for the "Forest" but the administrators can't give you a straight answer because it depends on where within the theoretical "Forest" you are. Obviously if your area of interest is actually on private land the Forest Service could, and often have been, sued for telling the visitor they can do an activity that they have no right to approve.

Rather than produce accurate maps of the actual land controlled by the US in these Purchase Unit boundaries the Forest Service has opted to deny approval for just about any type of activity that might end up in a lawsuit for trespass or damage to private lands.

Looking to public land laws to guide you in your "right" to detect Weeks Act Forests won't get you anywhere. The Eastern Forests are not public land, plain and simple. The laws governing acquired lands are entirely different than those for the public lands.

I realize this knowledge doesn't help you much in your efforts to detect these Eastern forests but hopefully it will help you get a clearer view of the real issues involved.

Here is a view of one of the bigger Purchase Units in your area of the country. This is the Cumberland Purchase Unit in Kentucky. It was renamed the Daniel Boone National Forest in the 1960's at the request of the Kentucky legislature. The areas in green are the total of the lands purchased to date. As you can see the "Forest" is actually mostly someones private land. There is very little actual "Forest" inside those pretty National Forest boundary signs.

 

[lookindown]

Ok now that I've had chance to cool off some steam I just want to apologize for my outburst... Tom you have good points for sure and maybe a more wiser person than I in this regard. If it helps any I wasn't the first to ask about metal detecting at this national forest. The lady mentioned she has been sending out the same old information to metal detectorists for years. They won't even acknowledge Regulation 36 CFR 228.4a which is on their website and completely relates to metal detecting (the link I posted). Instead they spin off regulations prohibiting digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging archaelogical/historic sites. And this refers to the entire forest...I guess it's ok to disturb, injure, destroy the ground artifacts with the gun ranges/hunters (bullets hitting everything), camping (those nasty tent pegs), atv's cutting trails, but when it comes to metal detecting oh the horror.

Also apparently they do not tell the public where archeological sites are located so you may not know if your in one and wouldn't know if digging a artifact or not... Apparently the American citizen can not be trusted. Least in countries such as England the people are given the chance to be trust worthy. If someone finds a historic treasure they are rewarded and it goes to a museum for the public to see and everybodys happy. That would never happen with the laws on the books here.

Anyways I've left their response at that since there is no point in me convincing these people. Unfornatunely I'm just a drop in the bucket. You may have read another thread I made about helping archies...I try to be understanding to why these laws are in place and what they do but it is frustrating to say the least when I just want to enjoy this wonderful hobby without being looked at as a criminal.

In England you cant hunt ANY public property, like parks, sidewalk strips, etc, only private property...be careful what you wish for.

 

[Fletch88]

In England you cant hunt ANY public property, like parks, sidewalk strips, etc, only private property...be careful what you wish for.

Lookingdown, apparently it's that way in TN. I was on the phone with a friend from Tennessee while taking my gear out at a local elementary school. I told him a sheriff had just pulled up and asked if everything was ok. I explained that I was going detecting and he gave me tips where an old house used to be (I already knew since I grew up here). My buddy says that I'm lucky they can't detect any public properties and ABSOLUTELY no waterways associated with TVA. I would have to move if I couldn't water hunt.