Romania metal detecting question.

[JustKeepDigging]

Hello all! I had a quick question in regards to metal detecting in Romania. My fathers side of the family lives in Romania and they own a bunch of land. They told me to just buy a ticket and I could detect all I wanted. Now, I read online that it may be illegal? Is that so even if I'm on my own land? What's the best way going about this?

 

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[maipenrai]

Of course, you could always just take your detector, go detecting, and tell us how big the fine was, and did they take your detector. If you do a little time, then when your out, you can tell how you liked it. I had a bit longer reply, but accidentally deleted it.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Of course, you could always just take your detector, go detecting, and tell us how big the fine was, and did they take your detector. If you do a little time, then when your out, you can tell how you liked it. I had a bit longer reply, but accidentally deleted it.

maipenrai, I repeat: Everything you're saying is true, when we start with the assumption it's illegal. No one's shown that yet. Why do you keep starting with this premise ? If it's true, then by all means: Everything you're saying logically follows. But let's answer the starting premise first.

And you have not addressed the contrary evidence I point out in posts # 38 and 40: That there are dealers and hobbyists there. How can that be ? Did they face fines and confiscations that you say are imminent ?

 

[pepperj]

Ok, I think we have 2 issues going on in the discussion : 1) a metal detector in your luggage, versus 2) the act of metal detecting when you get there.

It seems that your post #33 is addressing the import/luggage issue. Right ? If so: did their answer come via your A) asking ahead of time : "Can I bring a metal detector in my luggage?", or was that B) a routine inspection that all airline travelers get, where you stated that you had a detector ?

If it was via (B), then I agree no one can argue with that. Even if arbitrary and based on no actual rule, I agree that you'd be on the loosing end of trying to argue with them. However if it was via (A), then perhaps you were the latest victim of "no one cared till you ask?" psychology ? I dunno.

It's always better to ask for permission than to ask for forgiveness when showing up at customs without the permission. The permission better be in writing from a gov't official and not a verbal one.

 

[maipenrai]

Dealers there might be, but who do they sell to, maybe they sell to someone that has a permit for detecting. I really dont know, but if I was the OP, I would ask someone that was in the know. He will have a rough time, if he goes with his detector, and they stop him at customs, and he says, Tom told me I could take my detector!
If he ships it, he may have to pay import tax or have it confiscated. If he takes it in his luggage, maybe they will check, maybe not. I have taken my detector through Thai customs many times, no one checked, and I usually had my sales receipt, just in case. If in Romania, you need a permit to use a detector, then the OP doesnt have a permit. Now what is he going to do.
Detecting for raw gold in Thailand is only allowed for Thais, but dealers sell gold detectors to anyone that has the money. Of course I could be detecting in a river and just say Im looking for coins, now if someone believes me, thats good, if not, maybe I have problems.
Kinda like hunting in Cali, at a park where detecting is not allowed, and when someone ask, just say Im looking for my wifes ring!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It's always better to ask for permission than ....

Ok, then it was option A. You inquired ahead and got told "no metal detector in your suitcase". Might have been the "no one cared till you asked" psychology. Who knows. I wonder if ... whomever rendered that opinion, had it based in any actual airline rules that truly said "no metal detectors" ? Because as pointed out in post # 38: Detectors are entering the country. I wonder how they get there, if not allowed on flights ? Perhaps being driven in ? Presto: fly into the neighboring airport, and drive in with detector ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dealers there might be, but who do they sell to, maybe they sell to someone that has a permit for detecting.....

thanx for taking a crack at that maipenrai So now we've arrived at the admission that md'ing is going on in Romania. Would like to see a link to the law that it can only be done with a permit . Actual chapter and verse.

But here's what I'd do: I'd merely contact any of those dealers. And simply ask them: "Where are your customers using them, and do they need any special "permit" if they're detecting on private land ?"

Bear in mind that there's even been one USA purist archie link, that actually tried to say "need a permit for all sorts of places in the USA". But you'll look long & hard at the link, and figure out it's not based in any law that they can point to. Not saying it isn't true for Romania, but would like to see the actual text saying such a thing.

Often time junk that applies to shipwreck salvor, archaeological digs, exporting gold bars, blah blah blah can often get cited "to a pressing question". When in actual reality, never was applied to casual fumble fingers stuff. This, for example, happened in the following funny story I will recount in the next post.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Fisher metal detector Co. had a periodical (monthly ? Quarterly ?) that used to get mailed out to readers in the 1970s and '80s. It used to have a letters-to-the-editor column, where readers could submit questions about detectors and detecting. In the late 1970s or early 1980s, a reader wrote in that they were getting ready to go on vacation to one of the Mexican tourist beaches. So they wanted to know if it was legal to metal detect in Mexico. Fisher, in reply, told them "No. When gong to Mexico, leave the detectors at home. Not allowed".

In the following periodical's letter column, several other readers had written in objecting. Saying things like "Since when ?" and "where did you get this information?" and "we go there all the time with no problems" , etc...

Fisher, in defense of their earlier answer, gave the following reply: When they had received the earlier inquiry, they merely passed it along to a border lawyer consulate type person. I mean ... duh ... who better to ask than Mexico themselves, eh ? But as you can see, the question probably got couched in some sort of antiquities verbiage, like raiding the pyramids, shipwreck salvor, exporting cultural heritage gold bars, or .... who knows ? Thus Fisher was merely passing on the answer they'd received.

What was odd is that there are dealers/distributors in the larger cities down there. INCLUDING FISHER dealers, doh! And detectors are a common site on the tourist beaches.

Ever since that humorous story, when I likewise see other "dire sounding no's" being bandied about regarding other odd countries, I often wonder if the origin of such notions didn't get started in the exact same way. And once it starts, it's impossible to put to rest.

 

[pepperj]

Ok, then it was option A. You inquired ahead and got told "no metal detector in your suitcase". Might have been the "no one cared till you asked" psychology. Who knows. I wonder if ... whomever rendered that opinion, had it based in any actual airline rules that truly said "no metal detectors" ? Because as pointed out in post # 38: Detectors are entering the country. I wonder how they get there, if not allowed on flights ? Perhaps being driven in ? Presto: fly into the neighboring airport, and drive in with detector ?

Have you detected in any other country outside USA?

 

[WaterScoop]

WOW this one blew up over night...

I can see we have a passionate conversation. So I would like to inject some FACTS into some of this hear say and where did you get your information accusations ?

Here is the ROMANIAN LAW stating that what Tom is saying can be done without batting an eyelash is actually ILLEGAL i. Romania. Use Google translate. I read and write Romanian.

The law is 36 pages long.

Here is the full link to the LAW

The law states that you need to apply for a permit to even OWN a metal detector. This has to be filled out in front of a police officer.

HERE ARE THE STRICT REQUIREMNTS NEEDED FOR THE PERMIT
Documente necesare la dosar, pentru autorizarea detectorului de metale.

– copie xerox BI / CI
– copie xerox factura de provenienta (sa aiba numele titularului autorizatiei, numar si serie de factura si de asemenea, sa fie trecuta si seria detectorului in aceasta factura)
– cazier judiciar luat in vederea obtinerii autorizatie de detinere detector metale ( 10 ron la trezorerie TIMBRU FISCAL DE 2 LEI – de retinut)
– taxa la trezorerie 10 ron ( taxa e sub numele de ” taxa obtinere autorizatie detinere si functionare”, asa sa cereti).
– cererea o completati a politie in fata politistului , deci o puteti primi acolo, sau va puteti prezenta cu un model de cerere realizat mai jos, in acre completati acolo doar data.


Local Metal detectorists in Romania are afraid of the local police where they simple say that the police will confiscate
Their metal detectors if the 36 page law is not followed. They also talk that people that received metal detectors as gifts also had them confiscated thru the Postal Customs. It also states that the laws become tougher in 2016 so this is not an archaic post.

The following was written in a Romanian Metal Detecting Blog
LINK HERE


Update_2:
Începând cu anul 2016, în anumite județe s-au confiscat detectoarele de metale cumpărate în vederea autorizării, datorita legislației neclare din acest punct de vedere. Le sugerez celor care vor sa își achiziționeze sau care primesc în donație detectoare de metale, în prealabil sa contacteze ofițerul de patrimoniu de care aparțin pentru a-l înștiința despre acest lucru și astfel, se vor evita aceste probleme.
Update_1:
Clarificări in ceea ce privește studiul zonelor care se doresc a fi detectate. Va rog citiți cu atenție pentru a nu avea neplăceri ulterioare.

So I guess one can go into a Cuba like Government with their gun blazzing saying I am an American and I know my rights I demand to have the right to metal detect...and have your metal detector confiscated and possible jail time. They refer to what is in the ground as their national heritage treasure and removing it as an act against all Romanian people.

It’s not hear say, it’s not bullshit it’s what happens outside our country. So you better kiss miss liberty on the lips before you kiss your detector good bye. They will not mess around and they will take your stuff and you will be S.O.L.

Like I said I know better and will keep my toys, Thank you, if you are adventurous go for it. Keep in mind that I do SHARE Toms great attitude of “you miss 100% shots you don’t take...”within reason .Read my signature block below... they only difference is that I choose to take the path of least resistance.

 

[cudamark]

What is your source ? I mean, sheesk, metal detectors get used for a variety of other uses too: Finding nails in logs (so you don't mess up saw blades), security at events, finding lost jewelry, looking for modern objects that don't fall under cultural heritage, for use on private land which is outside the scope of laws applying to private land, etc...

I don't disagree that there are some places where the mere possession of one could be a no-no. If an ENTIRE COUNTRY is within that, then do you have some link to show that ? I have not flown outside of the USA. But, just from the state-to-state flying I've done here, and seeing the scrutiny they do at the baggage check, they are NOT opening your luggage, and ruffling through your underwear compartment, etc... They are concerned about explosives, weapons, and drugs I would think.

I'll tell you what I'll do: My sister in law works for one of the largest travel agents in the country. Based out of Texas. They handle all the inter-continental travel of many of the fortune 500 companies, celebrities, etc..... I will pose this question on her, if she knows of ANY country in the world, that travel into forbids the possession of a metal detector. Ok ?

I will report back to the forum.

My impression was based solely on Waterscoop's posts and not meant to be a legal opinion. Since he claimed to have lived there, I figured he would have a good feel for the place and how their laws work. If I understood Romanian, I'd look it up myself. Assuming what Waterscoop said was the truth (that foreigners can't even possess one without a permit) than I would have to believe that the dealers over there are only selling to Romanians that can prove who they say they are. Someone (non-Romanian) with current first hand experience trying to detect there would be invaluable to this discussion. By all means, ask your sister-in-law what she can find out......can't hurt......and her opinion is probably just as good as anyone else's here. Maybe we can come up with a consensus and send Tom over there with his detector to check it out!

 

[WaterScoop]

I have no dog in this fight. Only the truth.

Here is a photo of the enforcement police out in the country side checking on proper
“Paperwork”for a metal detectorists. This is way out in the country side where the sheep are taken out to pasture so you know it’s out in the boonies.




Minelab has a presence in Romania because they have associated themselves with a religious organization
Run by Greek/Romanian Orthodox priests dedicated to protect the history of Romania

 

[kiara]

Hey JustKeepDigging
Romania has recently joined the ECMD (European Council for Metal Detecting). These are the laws in Romania:

In order to posses a metal detector in Romania, one has to obtain a non-expensive authorization from the Police (one specific authorization document for each metal detector owned). After the application is filed, the document is issued within usually 10-20 days.
One is not allowed to metal detect in archaeological sites or close to those and the private property has to be respected. Metal detecting in an archaeological site, without the prior written permission of the Ministry of Culture, is a crime and it is punished by prison time.
All finds older than 100 years are to be surrendered to the relevant authorities within 72 hours. Failing to do so is a contravention and is punished by fine. On the other hand, behaving like an owner (offering, selling, modifying etc.) of the finds is a crime (severe theft) and it is punished by prison time.
When a find is legally surrendered to the authorities, the finder is entitled to a reward of 30% of the value of the find. When the find is considered to be an extraordinary one (category “Treasure”), the reward is increased to 45%.
The authorities have 18 months for releasing the reward.

I am doing my PhD in metal detection and legislation. I am examining countries that restrict the hobby heavily, those that allow and those that are permissible. I am looking to see if the PAS style logging system would be suitable here in North America. If you check out the ECMD site you'll see the Netherlands just started a similar logging system.

 

[kiara]

Hey,
Do you know if this outline of the law is available in English? The ECMD has generalized info on the laws there.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Have you detected in any other country outside USA?

Yes I have. But what would it matter ?

Is the inference of this question that a person can not have knowledge of a matter, unless he personally did/tried it ? On the contrary: It's acceptable to study something via attainable facts. For example: If I said: "You will get injured if you jump off the golden gate bridge". You could say "have you ever personally done it ?" I would say "no". Ok, does that mean I'm not qualified to make the statement then ?

 

[cudamark]

Other than getting permission from private property owners, I'd rather we didn't have any detecting/collecting/selling type laws here. If it's public land, and not an archaeological site, anyone should be able to detect it. Your info on Romania is encouraging compared to the dire warnings from Waterscoop. It still looks a bit intimidating, but, at least you can detect. There would be a ton more questions that need to be answered before I'd venture into that part of the world though! Like, can you apply and get a permit in advance of a trip there? If not, that would have to be a fairly extensive holiday. I would assume that if you turned something in and they didn't want it for "cultural", monetary, or museum reasons, that you'd be able to have it shipped to you? What's their definition of "non-expensive"?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....

The law is 36 pages long.

Here is the full link to the LAW

The law states that you need to apply for a permit ....

Well here we are, 49 posts into the thread, and someone has finally posted an actual law. And it even appears to be chapter and verses, not just someone's commentary. Thank you. But it's all in Romanian language. How does a person activate google translator ? And even then-so, hopefully it's not botched up grammar, as is often the case when trying to use the computer translators ?

But let's cut to the chase: Assuming it's true that A) metal detectors are allowed there , thus B) that presumably means there is logically some place they could be used (lest why else have one?), but C) you have to have a permit.

Well ... gee, ... what's to stop someone from merely getting the frickin' permit ? Presto: Detecting and detectors not disallowed in Romania. Right ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey JustKeepDigging
Romania has recently joined the ECMD (European Council for Metal Detecting). These are the laws in Romania:

In order to posses a metal detector in Romania, one has to obtain a non-expensive authorization from the Police (one specific authorization document for each metal detector owned). After the application is filed, the document is issued within usually 10-20 days.
One is not allowed to metal detect in archaeological sites or close to those and the private property has to be respected. Metal detecting in an archaeological site, without the prior written permission of the Ministry of Culture, is a crime and it is punished by prison time.
All finds older than 100 years are to be surrendered to the relevant authorities within 72 hours. Failing to do so is a contravention and is punished by fine. On the other hand, behaving like an owner (offering, selling, modifying etc.) of the finds is a crime (severe theft) and it is punished by prison time.
When a find is legally surrendered to the authorities, the finder is entitled to a reward of 30% of the value of the find. When the find is considered to be an extraordinary one (category “Treasure”), the reward is increased to 45%.
The authorities have 18 months for releasing the reward.

I am doing my PhD in metal detection and legislation. I am examining countries that restrict the hobby heavily, those that allow and those that are permissible. I am looking to see if the PAS style logging system would be suitable here in North America. If you check out the ECMD site you'll see the Netherlands just started a similar logging system.

52 posts into the thread, and some more actual laws. I don't see where this is chapter and verse . It appears to be someone's summary of what they've read in the actual law. So for sake of argument, let's assume this summary is totally correct. Then it sounds like you can hunt private property, with permission , till your arms fall off. And it sounds like it's a math skills test for you to turn in stuff over 100 yrs. old . Not unlike the USA's arpa that we all religiously obey here, eh ? ( And so too is Arpa riddled with dire consequences and talk of penalties).

But assuming this "100 yr. rule" is border to border throughout all the country, including private property, it simply means you have to turn in coins over 100 yrs. old. And I notice that if you find a cache or treasure (something very valuable) that you even get paid by the govt. for a portion of it's value. Well ... gee ... that's not too different than England's system of reimbursement . So ... what's the fuss ?

So it seems to me that detecting IS possible there. And as for the maze of rules , well , as pointed out : So too will you find rules in every single country. Lost & found laws, disturb and deface laws, take/harvest/remove laws, cultural heritage laws, etc..... Not saying that some countries don't enforce more, or have more sticklers. But just saying that we can put to rest that it's illegal to metal detect in Romania. Because it's not.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I am doing my PhD in metal detection and legislation. I am examining countries that restrict the hobby heavily, those that allow and those that are permissible.....

Very interesting. Keep us informed.

When you go to study any certain country, where do you get the info. on what their laws are ? I'm assuming straight from codified laws, so that you're not simply hearing commentary and opinion from a desk-jockey or consulate or someone. Right ?

About 10 yrs. ago, I had a detector listed for sale on CL. But had failed to check the box that limits bidder to being within the USA. The winning bidder was from a country in Europe. I really didn't feel like overseas shipping, but I was sort of stuck, since I hadn't limited the scope of bidders. And he had fully prepaid up, including the expensive shipping.

As the buyer and I conversed via email for the transaction, my curiosity got the better of me: His country was one of the countries on the list that was circulating at that time (I notice the link no longer works). And if that list was to be believed, then this fellow was in one of the European countries where the language was quite dire. If not outright banned. I was intrigued that I was about to ship a detector to one of "those" countries.

My curiosity got the better of me, so I linked the fellow to that link. And asked the obvious "How can you detect there, in-light of this ? " . He emailed back and said that that only applies to public land. Not farmer's lands with permission. And ... he said ... quite frankly ... "we're so far back in the hills, that there's no one around to begin with".

They had a hard time getting American goods. And the type detector I had listed on ebay, was a model that's popular in their md'ing circles, and ... since out of production ... could only be gotten on the used market. Hence the reason he'd bid on my machine.

 

[pepperj]

52 posts into the thread, and some more actual laws. I don't see where this is chapter and verse . It appears to be someone's summary of what they've read in the actual law. So for sake of argument, let's assume this summary is totally correct. Then it sounds like you can hunt private property, with permission , till your arms fall off. And it sounds like it's a math skills test for you to turn in stuff over 100 yrs. old . Not unlike the USA's arpa that we all religiously obey here, eh ? ( And so too is Arpa riddled with dire consequences and talk of penalties).

But assuming this "100 yr. rule" is border to border throughout all the country, including private property, it simply means you have to turn in coins over 100 yrs. old. And I notice that if you find a cache or treasure (something very valuable) that you even get paid by the govt. for a portion of it's value. Well ... gee ... that's not too different than England's system of reimbursement . So ... what's the fuss ?

So it seems to me that detecting IS possible there. And as for the maze of rules , well , as pointed out : So too will you find rules in every single country. Lost & found laws, disturb and deface laws, take/harvest/remove laws, cultural heritage laws, etc..... Not saying that some countries don't enforce more, or have more sticklers. But just saying that we can put to rest that it's illegal to metal detect in Romania. Because it's not.

I would hate to test out your theories in actual real time. Yes every country in the western world has these laws-endless matter of fact. But what happens when one breaks them here-ZILCH.

Go to the said country and one might find themselves without gear, and sitting on a steel bench because someone ratted you out for a side of bacon. If you got caught at the border they'd certainly agree with your math skills in the 100yr old find law. Off you go again to the clink.

Seriously I really hope that folks don't take you too seriously as their defence would be lame as hell when they state the following "Well Tom in CA said"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I would hate to test out your theories in actual real time.....

I'll be the first to admit I have a very low caution threshold risk assessment. 40 yrs. of md'ing has brought me to be calloused I guess :/ But on the other hand, I feel that many md'rs are *too* cautious, and are over-thinking things.

If I were going to hunt there, I'd correspond with locals. See their show & tells (which you can see on-line they post) and get the real skinny. Because as you know: Sometimes actual practice and technicalities, can be two different things. Perhaps it's religiously enforced and kept by all the locals there . So they only ever hunt for modern stuff, and always-ever turn in their old coins, gleefully accepted by the police ? And if they find a bonanza, they don't sell themselves, and ... instead .... wait to get the 35 or 45% reimburse ? Could very well be.