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Thread: New Fisher PI - Ricks Manta Manifesto

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  1. #1
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    New Fisher PI - Ricks Manta Manifesto

    I posted this a few minutes ago on another forum, in response to a question of whether a special purpose gold hunting beach PI like the Manta would be a machine that folks would buy and then not like.

    I think the answer is some will love it, some won’t. Pretty much like any other detector. You build PI machines which a lot of folks have used and most really love, but they are clearly not for everyone.

    Beach hunting is hard work and unless you live near the beach it is a thing you can only do when you infrequently travel to the beach. PI beach detectors have been on the market for decades. They are niche machines in beach detecting and beach machines are a niche within the overall detector market.

    Fisher’s primary challenge is to produce a machine which is light and elegant and lives up to the picture painted by enthusiastic folks on the forums.Their next challenge is to present it correctly. I am pretty sure that they don’t want every hunter who goes to the beach to buy one. FT are busy developing new platforms which will address the challenge posed by the latest crop of “go anywhere” detectors - water resistant VLF’s with salt beach capability (mostly but not exclusively multifrequency).

    If we look at existing PI water machines we see detectors with depth on low mineral beaches equal to or superior to machines like the Excal, CTX and CZ21 (on black sand or other mineralized beaches they clearly beat the VLF’s). The current machines lack any practical means of identifying iron. The result is that users often find that they end up digging more and deeper holes without increasing their finds. They also are no more sensitive to small gold than VLF’s which can operate in Salt. A lot of them end up being sold on or put in the closet, and the user either giving up beach detecting or reverting to a VLF. Some dedicated hunters, especially where mineralized beaches prevail continue to use them and get super results.

    The new Fisher PI will be a specialized tool. It’s for gold, just like a Minelab GPZ which costs $7000. The difference is that finding an ounce of gold nuggets is really, really hard. Lots of folks try for a year to find their first tiny one. Head to the beach with a good beach detector and the odds of finding gold are nowhere so remote - and the gold you find is in bigger chunks than the average nugget hunter will ever find.

    The Manta has two key characteristics which aim to make it a deadly gold hunter. First and most important, it claims to be more sensitive to ALL gold than any previous salt water detector. It does this by having an adjustable pulse delay control which goes down below 10 microseconds pulse delay - this has two effects, it enables finding smaller gold than any current detector in salt water and second Manta has more depth on all gold. All this sensitivity would be no good if weak target signals were swamped by circuit and ground noise. The Manta’s design has been refined and every design trade off made in the direction of extremely low noise, letting weak signal be heard.

    So, folks might say - OK maybe it will find more gold, but PI’s also hear every tiny flake of metal and drive me nuts and wear me out digging deep holes for nails, hairpins and aluminum trash.

    The feature of the Manta which has probably gotten the most attention is its ability to ID or eliminate ferrous targets. The iron ID/elimination capability of the Manta is based on the operation of its ground balance system. This function puts iron and high conductors into the excluded “bucket” (it has two modes, no return or multitone) and puts low conductors - gold jewelry and aluminum - into another “bucket”. The degree of operation of this feature is variable from “all metal” level through increasing amounts of rejection. Use of this will greatly reduce or eliminate digging ferrous junk. Unlike the primitive iron ID of the Minelab GPX machines, this feature works to nearly full detecting depth of the machine. Since it works on the strength of the return signal, vs. its phase shift, it will likely eliminate those dreaded smashed and ripped deep aluminum cans.

    At high levels, the largest ferrous targets and other targets with high conductivity are rejected. With use of the ferrous rejection feature clad and silver coins are excluded. Not so great for “clad stabbing” The testing so far has concentrated on finding gold in the water and France doesn’t have recent high conductor coinage. The use of iron ID when silver is the target may work fine by adjusting the pulse delay to a higher value and choosing a lower level of iron exclusion, or it may be necessary to hunt in all metal with a high pulse delay value to eliminate small ferrous and all aluminum. In any event, LE JAG has reported that in his 3 years or so of testing and using successive Manta prototypes he has mainly operated in all metal - stating that most iron gives a double “blip” especially if the coil is lifted slightly. In this mode, silver and clad are detected, just like everything else.

    Using the Manta for gold in salt will be just like any other beach machine in one way - the user will have to adapt control settings and search techniques to extract the maximum information from the ground and to make effective use of his time and energy. Fisher’s argument is that between the gold finding power of the Manta and it’s abilities to avoid digging ferrous junk, it will obsolete all previous PI beach machines and outperform any current beach machine of any type - tall order, we will see if it measures up.

    The upcoming testing of pre-production machines here in North America will no doubt clearly reveal the best use of the machine’s capabilities - When that data is in, I’m pretty sure Fisher’s advertising and social media information on the PI will reflect its strengths and limitations. They are well aware this is not a mass-market machine. I suspect also that they are putting off setting a price target for this until they have a firmer grasp on the scope of its usefulness and appeal. The GPZ costs $7000 - why? - because it finds gold nuggets better than any other detector in the world and gold is valuable - Minelab charges a kind of tax on gold. If the Manta can demonstrate that it really finds gold jewelry in salt water better than any machine in the world it will totally dominate an admittedly niche market - fortunately, I doubt that Fisher is interested in “taxing gold” - so I’m sure the price will be much more reasonable.

    Rick Kempf
    cobill likes this.

  2. #2

    Apr 2017
    Fisher F75, Minelab Soveriegn XS 2 Nokta pinpointer
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    Are you a representative of Fisher? Detectorists would never ask for an 'elegant' machine. Minelab taxes gold?? What about the CZ 21? Is yhis how FT goes about marketing a new machine? Most people give up on PI beach machines?

    Chub

  3. #3
    us
    May 2014
    Wilmington NC
    Nox 600; CTX; Fisher CZ21; Minelab Excalibur II; White's Surf PI DF; 920i Stealth Scoop
    625
    511 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by chub View Post
    Are you a representative of Fisher? Detectorists would never ask for an 'elegant' machine. Minelab taxes gold?? What about the CZ 21? Is yhis how FT goes about marketing a new machine? Most people give up on PI beach machines?

    Chub
    I don't think he works for Fisher in any capacity, just someone who is excited for this new machine!
    Last edited by adamBomb; Jun 14, 2018 at 05:10 PM.
    GA_Boy likes this.

  4. #4
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hi Chub. fair questions, and thanks - it gives me a chance to expand a bit on a couple of points and address the critical question of my connection with First Texas.

    Are you a representative of Fisher? NO, I don’t represent or speak for Fisher. I admire the heck out of First Texas - the story of how Tom Walsh in El Paso, decided to go into the detector business then hired Dave Johnson and bought up the intellectual property of failed or failing brands - including Fisher is a great success story.

    I have gotten to know some of the folks at First Texas -

    Dave Johnson (their Chief Designer) I have known about for many years through Forum participation and later through correspondence on a variety of topics - many of them light years away from metal detecting. Dave is the smatest guy I have ever met.

    Carl Moreland (their Engineering Manager) I first followed on his Geotech forum. I happened one day to click on the “Positions” tab on the Whites website as see that they were looking for an Engineering Manager. A few days later, Carl posted about his participation on his forum would have to change since he had accepted a job with a Metal Detector Manufacturer. I PM’d him and asked if it was Whites! It was, of course. Later when he left Whites, I kind of followed his move to FT. I have subsequently has some direct communication with him.

    I have also gotten to know all the folks in their marketing department. Since I waste endless hours on a lot of different metal detector forums, I frequently copy Russ Balbirona, Director of Marketing with posts where there is a customer service issue - this has resulted in a number of forum members getting some personal attention from FT management

    Last of all, when FT launched the Ameritech Program last year, I was invited to become a “Special Representative” for that line.


    Detectorists would never ask for an 'elegant' machine. First of all - I disagree with that statement lots of folks appreciate a combination of lightness, ergonomic excellence and great user interface - to me that’s elegance. Just look at the Deus or a Fisher F75 - elegance. I expect that the folks whose design prowess gave us the F75 and T2 will not be satisfied with a less than “elegant” PI - I could be wrong of course.

    Minelab taxes gold? The Minelab “tax on gold” is a term I came up with as long ago as 2010 to describe how, as the gold price ran up, minelab greatly increased the price of each successive detector in their GPX series and then capped it all with the $7000 price on the GPZ. Here’s clip from a 2010 post I made on the sbject of why Minelab’s military mine detector units cost so much less than their gold nugget detectors which used the same basic design...As far as the price, (of the mine detectors) I think you would be amazed. It's more like $2k than $5k. The difference? Minelab doesn't dominate the mine clearing market and the GPX detectors carry an invisible "gold tax". Since gold is valuable, the best performing gold detector commands a huge premium over production cost”

    What about the CZ 21? The CZ21 is a 20 year old platform in a rugged case. If the Manta succeeds, it may hang on for deep diving applications, but the cost of manufacture and the low sales volume make its long term prospects dim - IMHO

    Is yhis how FT goes about marketing a new machine?- FT is not writing and posting this stuff, I am. I guess if they hated what. I was doing, they could reach out and suggest that as someone who admirers them (which I do) it would be appreciated if I stopped doing it. They haven’t done so.

    Most people give up on PI beach machines? Most people wh hav tried PI beach machines have either given them up or use them in conjunction with a VLF machine. This mostly has to do with the absence of iron ID on existing PI beach machines. When this changes, the role of PI’s at the beach will likely change. The increased depth, quiet operation, immunity to black sand,and see through capability for gold beneath iron - together with the iron ID - will make this a formidable contender for any serious hunter of “SeaGold”.




    Last edited by Rick K; Jun 14, 2018 at 08:54 AM.
    GA_Boy and chlsbrns like this.

  5. #5
    Charter Member
    us
    TerryrSoloman.com

    May 2010
    White Plains, New York
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    I'm sorry to hurt any feelings here, But a PI that actually discriminates is a fairy tale. An adjustable pulse delay control which goes down below 10 microseconds pulse delay, can also be a nightmare. Remember there is a huge difference between wet sand, and 5+ feet of saltwater. Pulse delays under 10 become unstable real fast at depth, and are hinky on wet sand as well. This stuff about finding smaller gold at depth is just nonsense.

    Please show me I'm wrong if this machine ever becomes reality. In the meantime, A Tesoro Sand Shark will still beat the pants off any PI $1,200.00 or less.
    chub, Rawhide and Javadroid like this.

  6. #6
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Terry – no hurt feelings – but I’m going to bronze your post. Next year this time we’ll see which one of us gets “claim chowder”


    Meanwhile – if you mean discrimination like variable from iron up through the various conductors all the way to silver yes PI discrimination is - and will likely remain a fairytale. If you mean usable identification of iron up to nearly the full depth of detection – have another look at the videos I have posted – the manta has already demonstrated that quite clearly. It is a fact that the prototypes did that – the production machine will do it as well.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4...ature=youtu.be



    I know you have experience as I do of machines with variable pulse delays - the fact that the manta will go below 10 µs doesn’t mean you will always use it that setting. Carl Moreland has posted that he ran it happily at 6.5 µs in running salt water at the Oregon Coast. I believe he’s telling the truth – others may believe what they want. LE JAG in France has publicly posted that he has been successfully running it at 8 µs and under on wet beaches and in waist deep water.


    As far as finding small gold at depth being bunk – I would like to know your basis for that assertion.

    Terry Soloman likes this.

  7. #7
    Charter Member
    us
    Rawhide

    Nov 2010
    SouthWestern USA
    Etrac, F75, AT Pro.
    3,437
    1949 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Soloman View Post
    I'm sorry to hurt any feelings here, But a PI that actually discriminates is a fairy tale. An adjustable pulse delay control which goes down below 10 microseconds pulse delay, can also be a nightmare. Remember there is a huge difference between wet sand, and 5+ feet of saltwater. Pulse delays under 10 become unstable real fast at depth, and are hinky on wet sand as well. This stuff about finding smaller gold at depth is just nonsense.

    Please show me I'm wrong if this machine ever becomes reality. In the meantime, A Tesoro Sand Shark will still beat the pants off any PI $1,200.00 or less.
    I need to add a PI to my detectors. I also will most likely go with a new nox at some point.
    Terry Soloman likes this.

  8. #8
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Here’s LE JAG’s latest from another forum...​my comments in red

    “next year you will have, in addition to an 8 inches (an 8” optional coil)
    will be even easier
    to hunt beaches full of nails
    in reject mode / no need to recognize (no need to play games about wiggling to make them break up)
    the nails will cut (will be ID’d)/ just dig / low conductor
    all gold rings less than 10 gr / depending on the settin (larger rings would be ID’d along with iron - nothing is perfect)

    even a nail through the ring of 2gr / you will have the ring

    I recognize that it is difficult to admit
    I would have been told this / 3 years ago / before I have the machine in my hands

    I would not have believed (this from a guy who has had his hands on every version of the prototypes for 3 years and who hunted with PI’s and VLF at the beach for years before that)
    Last edited by Rick K; Jun 14, 2018 at 06:35 PM.

  9. #9
    us
    May 2014
    Wilmington NC
    Nox 600; CTX; Fisher CZ21; Minelab Excalibur II; White's Surf PI DF; 920i Stealth Scoop
    625
    511 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Soloman View Post
    Please show me I'm wrong if this machine ever becomes reality.
    So far its looking like it does it all...at least from the videos and Fisher purchased the tech after seeing it for themselves! The Whites DF was an awesome machine but digging BBs and bobby pins at 3-4 scoops was a major pain. If this can knock them out - wow. But time will tell. Fingers crossed it works!
    Terry Soloman likes this.

  10. #10
    Charter Member
    us
    TerryrSoloman.com

    May 2010
    White Plains, New York
    Minelab GPZ 7000; Equinox 600 -- Tesoro Mojave -- Grave Digger Tools Nemesis shovel, Sidekick hand digger -- Bunk's Hermit Pick
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    The little 14K and Ruby earring up in the top right-hand corner, was 10" deep in wet sand and gave my 8" Tesoro Sand Shark a solid repeatable signal. Let's get real. Depth is relative at the beach. Unless you are hunting sheltered historic beaches, say on Long Island sound, you do not need more than 12" - 14" in depth. Heck, I can do that with my Equinox.

    Anything smaller than that earring isn't worth digging at 18"-20". If it were, I'd take my old GP 3000 with me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Terry where are all the nails and Bobby pins?

    It’s not about how deep the deepest target will be, it’s about how clearly you will hear all targets with low noise and short minimum pulse delay. If the manta can find a small or even big target deeper than another machine, the operator of the other machine would never hear it - so statements like there being nothing deeper than X inches, when based on not having found one deeper are liable to be equipment based rather than target existence based.
    Terry Soloman likes this.

  12. #12
    Charter Member
    us
    TerryrSoloman.com

    May 2010
    White Plains, New York
    Minelab GPZ 7000; Equinox 600 -- Tesoro Mojave -- Grave Digger Tools Nemesis shovel, Sidekick hand digger -- Bunk's Hermit Pick
    15,612
    19406 times
    Metal Detecting
    Rick, if the new machine can do what the company claims it will fly off the shelf like the Equinox. I just don't see that happening. If you can discriminate on the beach and in the water for less than $700.00 - and use the same machine on sports fields, farm fields, woods, and parks, I don't see a new PI making a huge splash. Maybe SCUBA guys will want it, but general beach hunters don't need it. It is no improvement on a multi-freq with a 15" coil.
    chub likes this.

  13. #13
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Good points Terry, except that it will KILL the Nox for depth. I have a 600 and in Beach 2 (the only mode usable in salt water) it is by no means impressive in depth. Slightly better than my CZ6 on small stuff, but not as deep on larger stuff.

    When black sand enters the picture - adios - bonvoyage - to any VLF’s - Nox, Excal, CTX. The Manta just ignores it. One of the videos I posted showed a BBS failing to detect a gold ring beneath a bag of black sand - the Manta detects the same ring UNDER two bags of the stuff!

    Likewise gold beneath iron - VLF - dig the iron? If you don’t you will never hear the gold. The same video sees the BBS machine signaling iron on two nails with a gold band underneath - The Manta - in discriminate - doesn’t hear the nails - solid tone on the gold - bingo!

    I know it’s a long video, I know it’s in French, but just watch and see - then ask yourself what other machine could do this. I know what you are thinking....maybe they faked it with weird settings and cherry-picking. Tell that to Carl Moreland and Tom Walsh - they are the Chief Engineer and the CEO of First Texas. Neither of them are fools. Tom voted with his checkbook - buying the technology and hiring Alexandre’s Team. It’s for real folks.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sdp4...ature=youtu.be

    All this will be revealed in detail in the coming months. If the Fisher PI turns out to be a cranky, clumsy dog, I will require a nice Gewurtztraminer with my crow! Terry can send the crow, I’ll pick my own wine. Lol
    Last edited by Rick K; Jun 15, 2018 at 02:48 PM.
    Terry Soloman likes this.

  14. #14
    us
    Mar 2013
    Excalibur II
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    I watched the video and want one! When do you think they will be available? I don't care about the cost. I see many people detecting the beaches here. The best detecting here is after storms that cut into the dunes and wash away a lot of sand. With that detector I could find the goodies before storms due to the detecting depth.

  15. #15
    us
    Jan 2007
    Gold Canyon AZ
    ML SDC-2300, Fisher F-75, XP Deus,
    577
    453 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Availability depends on the results of testing of actual pre-production examples by experienced and respected beach hunters. That process will start sometime in the not-too-distant future (I do not know when). If things go well, production would follow and the new machine would be announced - complete with its “Fisher” name - and online content showing what it can do. Some of this online content will no doubt be produced by First Texas (Russ Balbirona, Director of Marketing at FT is an excellent producer of such things) - some will likely be produced by folks who have handled so-called “Marketing Test” examples and - as is intended - have shared their experiences. This is all completely normal in “detector world”.

    Right now, First Texas are not the ones stirring up the you-know-what about this, it’s little old me. I am pleased on many levels by the promise this new machine holds and my travel trailer is ready to haul my skinny self off to California as soon as I get my hands on one - all those goodies - all that black sand.
    Last edited by Rick K; Jun 16, 2018 at 07:05 PM.
    Terry Soloman likes this.

 

 
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