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  1. #31
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    1,371
    4 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Thirty7 : If you're letting Dovetail NON experts weigh in, here goes :

    It seems fairly well established that the makers of Plevna Cluster points controlled the choicest lithic sources, cranking out huge numbers of them for trade, while the contemporary Kirk Cluster makers made do with whatever else was available elsewhere. (Not too many Flintridge Kirk Points. Or Stillwells, &c.).

    With this in mind, I've long suspected (assumed) that what they traded was not finished points, but preforms ready for whatever notching configuration the end user wanted to work into them. (Dovetails alone come in six or seven varieties, plus Thebes points [another several], McCorkles, et al.).

    Assuming this, Cobbs Knives of Flintridge, Burlington &c. would have been preforms used "as is" rather than modified for hafting (which, given how common "fracture bases" are, was a risky strategy for penny-pinchers). Unhafted knives were in use long before, and continued long afterward anyways -- nothing fundamentally new or unusual in them aside from shape and beveling.

    My two cents' worth


  2. #32
    us
    Jun 2009
    Weston, FL
    1,032
    198 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Uniface, that is a very solid/comprehensive answer, and a lot more concise than I can be... And it's an answer that also draws out a very neat distinction between Kirk cluster and St. Charles/Plevena cluster points (I'm going back to saying Dovetail because it's easier to type.)

    Kirk sites are common in the Midwest from Ontario on down, but especially common in the Ohio River valley. Some of them like Swans Landing, and the Cesaer's Casino in Indiana site near Louisville have produced hundreds and hundreds of kirk points all made with very local materials, as well as animal bones, tools, lithic workshops, tube bannerstones, etc. even some burials. The animal bones show that Kirk peoples ate a lot of rabbit, racoon, turtles, fish, with far lesser numbers of what we think of as traditional game animals like deer, elk, bear. They probably didn't hunt over huge areas, and utilized local resources. Dovetails are found over a similar area, but to date very few dovetail sites have been found and none even remotely as 'rich' in information as even a minor kirk rockshelter. It's really not clear who the Dovetail people were, but as Uniface pointed out, we know that during the early archaic period they controlled several main quarries (Flintridge, Harrison/Wyandotte County hornstone, some of the Coshocton and other black flint quarries in Ohio, etc.) All of which lends credence to the idea that Dovetails were an imported/traded commodity, while Kirks were made locally with local materials. Note, there are some dovetails made with local materials, which could have been transference of technology, but most were probably made at centralized locations. As you get to Illinois/Missouri they might have been made on a more local level, explaining the greater variety of St. Charles/Dovetail blades found in those states.

    Back to the idea of Cobbs being preforms for archaic points... Personally, I think too many knives are called Cobbs blades. I think there were true preforms (either thinned quarry blanks, or large core bifaces that were tools which were reduced clovis style down to another tool, and late stage bifaces that were going to be made into a specific point) and then there are a series of hand held, unnotched knives that include the Cobbs that were finished tools. Cobbs have some unique traits and in my opinion were a hand held knife that was resharped and reused to the point of getting down to a drill like form and then discarded. Their distribution is heavier south of the classic range of doves, and nearly absent in the northern part of the range. Kirk sites produce a lot of smaller Cobb like preforms, but so have some sites that produce Lost Lake and Thebes points as well. They haven't been found on Dovetail sites, but then again there are only two or three small dovetails sites so the sample is probably too small for conculsions.

    If any of you get a chance to see Bob Converse's collection, or pictures/pieces from Stan Copeland's collection, there are un-notched dovetails (big flint ridge bifaces built like dovetails) but I don't think they are related to the Cobbs type. I think most classic ohio-style Dovetails were notched when made, and then progressively resharped after trading. (Heck, look at all the examples of 5, 6 and the few 7 inch finished dovetails with very little resharpening.) Even two of the pieces posted in this thread are large pieces with heavy percussion flaking, and very little retouch. I don't think ancient peoples would use Cobbs blade as a hand held knife, resharpen and reuse it; then decide to reflake the entire surface with percussion flaking, and finally notch it to get a finished Dovetail.





  3. #33
    us
    Jan 2009
    --------->
    3,315
    206 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Thanks for the informative explanations guys. Not trying to derail the thead here.
    " Stay frosty, gents "

    www.arrowheadtalk.com

  4. #34
    us
    I breed scarlet and gray

    Feb 2009
    fairfield county,ohio
    1,878
    10 times
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Quote Originally Posted by thirty7
    Here's a question for the dovetail experts...If Cobbs blades are preforms for early archaic types(dovetail, thebes, lost lake) Why do you see some of these points unbeveled? It's always sort of bothered me because some people call them a first stage dove, and that doesn't make sense because it had bevels even before it had notches.
    LMAO!!!!Experts??This has been a great post and it all started at the flea market.lol.joshuaream,I got a few questions for you.What is your definition of a dovetail site??Have you ever found a Dovetail?Dovetail people,please explain that?And these "Dovetail people" controlled flint quarries??Where did you get this information?
    aint gonna find any heads sittin on the couch

  5. #35
    us
    Jan 2009
    --------->
    3,315
    206 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Imo a Cobbs blade is an unnotched preform and not a handheld knife. Two notches and you've got a dovetail, or lost lake.
    " Stay frosty, gents "

    www.arrowheadtalk.com

  6. #36
    us
    I breed scarlet and gray

    Feb 2009
    fairfield county,ohio
    1,878
    10 times
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    i agree 37,cobbs caches have been found associated w dovetails.not that this means anything but i have found cobbs and doves at a site i hunt.but what do i know.
    aint gonna find any heads sittin on the couch

  7. #37
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    1,371
    4 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    I think you're right, Josh. I hadn't thought it through well enough. Doves are thicker in relation to size, for one thing. Cobbs' couldn't be Dove preforms.

  8. #38
    us
    Jan 2009
    --------->
    3,315
    206 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Quote Originally Posted by uniface
    I think you're right, Josh. I hadn't thought it through well enough. Doves are thicker in relation to size, for one thing. Cobbs' couldn't be Dove preforms.
    I've got thin Cobbs and thick ones, same with dovetails. From Overstreet guide 10th edition " These are un-notched preforms for early archaic beveled types such as Decatur, Dovetail, Lost Lake, etc. Has been found with St. Charles points in a cache at the Olive Branch site and dated to 9300-9400 carbon years before present."

    The fact they have been found in caches with dovetail points is proof enough for me.
    " Stay frosty, gents "

    www.arrowheadtalk.com

  9. #39
    us
    Jan 2009
    South East Tennessee on Ga, Ala line
    Tesoro Conquistador freq shift Fisher F75 Garrett AT-Pro Larson mo jo pro Flippin stick
    13,168
    3474 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Um here in Tennessee dove season is very short and you can only take eleven a day. I like at least 6 at a sitting wrapped in bacon. I am lobbying to make it 12 a day so my meals are complete.
    Hope its a good one looks like you got some very knowledgable opinions from all the spectrums.
    Happy Huntin !
    Please read our rules and enjoy the site. TreasureNet.com Rules

    All finds posted by me are from private property with landowner permission.

  10. #40
    us
    Mar 2009
    80
    2 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    I found one broken dove on a site and no other doves have turned up, but maybe some day. I did just find a monster 3 5/8 inch dove at an antique shop for 250 dollars. I told the man who found it about this site and this thread. I wish I had 250 extra to buy that thing as I am sure one could get more out of it. The one this gentleman was selling was surrounded by many other field grade artifacts. This particular dove looked much different in the flaking than the one that started this thread.
    Jake

  11. #41
    us
    Dec 2008
    319
    156 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Stanfield/Cobbs blades are very likely to be finished pieces rather than preforms. The width to lenght ratio is much less on a Stanfield/Cobbs blade compared to a dove. If a culture were to make a dove from a Stanfield/Cobbs it would look like a lot of the grey ghosts floating around. The base would be much too wide. There are only a few examples of doves where the width to length ratio would be similar and that's on first stage, button base doves (i.e. Reinhart dove or Hooks dove.)

    Moreover, most Stanfield/Cobbs blades show extensive resharpening and beveling suggesting they were either used as is or hafted with just the round base. Most likely both cases are true becasue some of them do have ground bases.

    When looking at Stanfields/Cobbs, the basal flaking is usually much different than a dove. The flakes continue from one side to the other and they are rarely flaked from the base up. Usually there is only a light pressure retouch. Dove preforms were likely to be made into doves.

    Most cultures used some form of round based knife and the biggest distinguising difference is the knapping style and bevelling often found on early archaic flint types. Also, most of the knapping on Stanfield/Cobbs blades is very similar to all early archaic types including hardins, thebes, and doves. All of those point types I've found on the same sites in Illinois and they were likely used by the same people for various differing reasons.

    Hippy

  12. #42
    us
    Jan 2009
    --------->
    3,315
    206 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippy
    Stanfield/Cobbs blades are very likely to be finished pieces rather than preforms. The width to lenght ratio is much less on a Stanfield/Cobbs blade compared to a dove. If a culture were to make a dove from a Stanfield/Cobbs it would look like a lot of the grey ghosts floating around. The base would be much too wide. There are only a few examples of doves where the width to length ratio would be similar and that's on first stage, button base doves (i.e. Reinhart dove or Hooks dove.)

    Moreover, most Stanfield/Cobbs blades show extensive resharpening and beveling suggesting they were either used as is or hafted with just the round base. Most likely both cases are true becasue some of them do have ground bases.

    When looking at Stanfields/Cobbs, the basal flaking is usually much different than a dove. The flakes continue from one side to the other and they are rarely flaked from the base up. Usually there is only a light pressure retouch. Dove preforms were likely to be made into doves.

    Most cultures used some form of round based knife and the biggest distinguising difference is the knapping style and bevelling often found on early archaic flint types. Also, most of the knapping on Stanfield/Cobbs blades is very similar to all early archaic types including hardins, thebes, and doves. All of those point types I've found on the same sites in Illinois and they were likely used by the same people for various differing reasons.

    Hippy
    you lost me when you lumped Stanfield and Cobbs together, different culture and time period not to mention style of workmanship.
    " Stay frosty, gents "

    www.arrowheadtalk.com

  13. #43
    us
    I breed scarlet and gray

    Feb 2009
    fairfield county,ohio
    1,878
    10 times
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    yea 37 i am in the same lost boat.We have gone from a questionable flea market find to "dovetail people" controlling the flint quarries in ohio to stanfields and cobbs blades being compared.makes for some entertaining reading.could be a fun night here on tnet
    aint gonna find any heads sittin on the couch

  14. #44
    us
    Jun 2009
    Weston, FL
    1,032
    198 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honkey FlintMaster Flash
    LMAO!!!!Experts??This has been a great post and it all started at the flea market.lol.joshuaream,I got a few questions for you.What is your definition of a dovetail site??Have you ever found a Dovetail?Dovetail people,please explain that?And these "Dovetail people" controlled flint quarries??Where did you get this information?
    [/quote]

    Honkey,

    Sorry for the delay, I was away on business and wanted to respond when I could post a picture or two.. The first two pictures are front and back of my best personal flint find. 5 3/4 inches of flintridge dovetail found along the eel river in Whitley County Indiana when I was about 9 or so. (Sorry for the sarcasm, but in case you don't don't see enough parallel flaking for your liking and doubt the authenticity, it's been pictured in GIRS and a few other places), can we see your best dove? I sold it when I was in high school, but plan on buying it again if it comes up for sale...

    The questions in order-
    Definition of a Dovetail site- That's the problem, there aren't any significant sites. Take any other significant point type from the Archaic and you can find multiple sites. (Dalton, Lecroy, Kirk, Lost Lake, etc.) Heck, there are more Cumberland sites out there than Dovetail sites and there are probably a 1000 authentic dovetails for every cumberland. Just to cover all the bases, as an example, a Kirk site is a site where Kirk/palmer points are found in a dateable context, with other artifacts, fire pits, etc. In the plow zone, where most of us hunt, earlier and later sites can/do get mixed up.

    Have I found any dovetails- Aside from this one, I've been lucky enough to find several other doves between whole and brokes in Whitley and Allen Counties in Indiana and Van Wert, Ohio.

    Dovetail people- People who originally made dovetails. Again, we know a lot about the people that made Kirk cluster artifacts, we know what they ate, how they hunted, how they buried their dead, what other tools they used, etc. We know the same about a lot of the Dalton Cluster, about the Cody Cluster, Lecroy people, etc. I think it's fascinating that we know very little about the people who made dovetails and related points (e-notch and thebes.)

    Dovetail people controlling quarries- As Uniface put it, you don't see very many Kirks made from Flintridge and you don't see too many Dovetails in ohio made from crappy material. During the period when dovetails were made in Ohio, you rarely see other artifacts made from Flintridge, and it isn't until you get to the Adena and Woodland times that you see the same gem quality Flintridge quarries being used as frequently and spread over such a wide area.

    Where did I get this- Not from reading Overstreets... Much of it comes from early work by Morgan and Prufer, and conversations with Noel Justice when I was in college. There is a great book call Archaic Societies, it's probably in your local library. Bob Cook at OSU did some of his earlier work on the Paleo to Archaic transition in the midwest, etc. There is a lot of material out there, it just takes reading through some occasionally very dry journals/books.

    As far as caches, I've heard about the dovetail finds at the Olive Branch site, but haven't seen them. The Olive Branch site is so rich, that it's almost impossible to consider it a normal site (the quality and quantity of caches, and the size of the artifacts that have been found over the years is amazing.) In Ohio/Indiana, to my knowledge, there has never been a cache of dovetails mixed with Cobbs blades. As I mentioned before, there are un-notched dovetails out there, but they are built like dovetails not Cobbs blades. Attached is also a picture of a well used Cobbs blade, how would that have been notched to make a Dovetail? (Note, not my piece, the seller is imbus401 off eBay. I've bought from him before and he's a good seller.)

    Enjoying the discussion,

    Joshua

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  15. #45
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    1,371
    4 times

    Re: FLEA Market FIND.

    The business about the Dovetail makers controlling the best quarries/outcrops, and the division between them and the Kirk cluster people is taken from an overview of the Archaic era in (as I recall) Indiana written by an archaeologist maybe 20 or 30 years ago that I ran into googling around.

    You could probably find a reference to it in another paper yourself in 15 minutes, tops.

 

 
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