Trunk plates??? ......time to re-examine

[fieldslayer]

Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Fellow RW Enthusiacs - If I may, I would like to resolve a long time "pet peave" of mine I have been bothered by for some time , and would welcome any discussion, proof on this topic to settle it once and for all. I have been successfully hunting and researching rev war artifacts + attending relic shows since the late 1970's. I don't know how this assumtion arose, but so many classic looking plates such as shown in the previous post (correct size, clipped corners, etc.) have always been dismissed as "trunk plates" due to the presence of the studs on the back, even by some of the biggest authorities in the field. Aside from being an avid relic hunter, I have been in the antique business even longer. I have made it a sort of mission to find the evidence of this. To date, after seeing hundreds of examples of period trunks of all types, + consulting trunk experts and museums, I have yet to see one even similar example of such a brass attachment anywhere in my research. Also, is the GR example with studs in the Neumann and Kravic Encyclopedia book labled a cartridge box plate a mistake? By the numbers of these plates uncovered, it would be assumed that these were quite common on trunks. Where is the surviving trunk evidence This belief has been cliche for so many decades , that it apparently has never been questioned. I would welcome any commentary or proof otherwise, before anymore possible valid plates are dismissed.

 

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[vonrall]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

If you want to see some period engraved trunk plates you can start with several of General Washington’s campaign chests at Mount Vernon (one of which is even shown with a plate on it in the Neumann book page 182) .

This is sort of an impractical reverse argument, because you haven’t seen one of these so-called trunk plates at a flea market they must be belt plates. If you are convinced these trunk plates are beltplates, let’s see your proof, there should be plenty if that is the case. What indeed is the classic look of an 18th Century plate, I wasn’t aware there was a correct size, what would that be and what do you base that on? 18th Century plates don’t have clipped corners either, they are rounded, clipped corner types don’t come in until much later becoming most popular in the 19th Century. It’s pretty evident you are not familiar with beltplates or you would understand the huge difference. Belt and cartridgebox badges are quite rare, few have even handled a real one. If a soldier lost one it had to be replaced and it came out of his pay or the Colonel’s pocketbook, so they were quite careful about losing them.

I’ve collected them for over 40 years, studied original artwork showing them and examined (and even own) originals undug still attached to belts. Most of the beltplates fasten with a hook and a washer or stud arrangement, they are working belt buckles and are made of cast brass heavy enough to stand that kind of daily hard use. Shoulder belt plates in most cases are also a stud and hook arrangement as they must support a bayonet/swordbelt and be workable to fasten and unhook also. There are a few nonfunctional examples like the oval “GR” type shown in the Neumann book (which shows no trunk type plates as beltplates, I might add) . Cartridgebox badges usually have drilled wedges on the back, this is so a leather thong can be run through and they can be easily removed for polishing. In fact some British regiments were ordered to store them when they went on campaign to avoid the expense if any were lost.

In the British and Loyalist forces most of these bore the regimental number, crest or name, they were military insignia, not an individual’s name or initials, that would never have been allowed. They were an authorized emblem of the regiment, part of the uniform. The Hessians and Brunswicker’s insignia always bore the cipher of the ruler of that state, since the soldiers and all their equipment were his personal property.

There is a perfectly natural wish on the part of some relic hunters for their finds to be some more exciting then they really are, but they are what are, and nothing can change that. My book on Revolutionary War Buttons and Beltplates will be out this summer and I hope you will buy a copy. It will explain much on this topic.

BTW those large batwing buckles sold on ebay as colonial shoulder belt buckles are 19th Century harness buckles.

 

[vonrall]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Here are three found with a quick Google search,

http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/neat_sized_victorian_camphor_wood/as178a113#1

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...dsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:217&biw=1552&bih=871

http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/leatherbound_camphor__wood_trunk/as102a752

 

[fieldslayer]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Respectively Mr. Vonrall - I thank you for your input on this long debated topic. Your response is both informative and appreciated (however, the unflattering , ad hominem attacks on my person, less so). Be that as it may, the sole intention of this lowly, know-nothing "flea market" browser, was to invite facts, evidence, opinions, and friendly discussion amongst the community, as I stated ; PRO or CON. I personally have "no dog in this hunt" , as I traded away my best hard dug examples years ago. That being said, first I owe you a debt of gratitude for pointing out that in spite of all the early trunks and chests I've looked at, bought and sold, etc. you have supplied evidence that they did indeed exist, albiet, perhaps not so commonly. I stand humbley corrected. Allow me to better clarify more specifically, what my thoughts were while I ,being bored, quickly threw this blog together (waiting at Jury Duty). First, while many of my collegues would not agree, I never believed that the prong-stud type backs of these plates were condusive to any type of often used, ever flexing belt plates of any kind. Doubtful if ever. My thoughts were, however, that these could very well be attached to CARTRIDGE boxes. Secondly, I always assumed these would be primarely AMERICAN in origin. I commend you on your knowledge of British and German items and the ways you point out they usually attach. I am surprised you gave the American material no mention. Please feel free to comment if you think I am wrong on my thoughts on the following (admittedly, it seems you surely have studied countless more boxes than I). I so often have heard of our poorly funded, loosely organized patriot volunteer army, bringing with them personal gear, making creative use of whatever they had. (in sharp contrast to the well supplied, wealthy standard issue dress of the British.) The surviving American cartridge boxes i've seen are myriad in design and decoration ,and some, though not many, with various brass adornments. In addition , the known surviving plates of ours (at least the beltplates), I am to understand, were almost always plain ; as are most of these dug studded plates. I have no concrete proof of this theory ,so I am asking you : Have you ever seen any boxes with this trunk-type of plate and prong-studded back? Even perhaps one with initials ,possibly, brought with his rifle from the homestead when he volunteered? It does'nt seem implausible to me. In closing,however,I am leaning much stronger "trunk" thanks to you reply!

 

[vonrall]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Sorry if I sounded like I attacked you it certainly was not meant as such.

I didn't mention the Americans as there has never been any evidence of them using cartridgebox badges of any kind. A few units painted on the box flaps or had embossed motifs, etc. Basically. they had enough trouble getting just the boxes and funds were not available for extra decorations like that. I've dug quite a few purely revolutionary winter camps over several decades and haven't seen anything yet that would fit the bill. Also none on existing cartridgeboxes or in contemporary artwork. Occasionally I've seen small oval plates or maybe even clipped corner on cartridgeboxes of the post 1790s period , but not the Revolution.

Many Continental army units were better uniformed and equipped then one might expect and most certainly tried to look as well as possible particularly in the later part of the war.

Instead of beltplates the Americans used frame buckles . They occasionally may have used British plates they captured but camp evidence seems to indicate these were melted down to make other things. A very few American officers used beltplates , but a number used ornamental brass belt tips.

I am glad you have brought all this into the daylight so this topic can finally be discussed . Cheers. Don

Respectively Mr. Vonrall - I thank you for your input on this long debated topic. Your response is both informative and appreciated (however, the unflattering , ad hominem attacks on my person, less so). Be that as it may, the sole intention of this lowly, know-nothing "flea market" browser, was to invite facts, evidence, opinions, and friendly discussion amongst the community, as I stated ; PRO or CON. I personally have "no dog in this hunt" , as I traded away my best hard dug examples years ago. That being said, first I owe you a debt of gratitude for pointing out that in spite of all the early trunks and chests I've looked at, bought and sold, etc. you have supplied evidence that they did indeed exist, albiet, perhaps not so commonly. I stand humbley corrected. Allow me to better clarify more specifically, what my thoughts were while I ,being bored, quickly threw this blog together (waiting at Jury Duty). First, while many of my collegues would not agree, I never believed that the prong-stud type backs of these plates were condusive to any type of often used, ever flexing belt plates of any kind. Doubtful if ever. My thoughts were, however, that these could very well be attached to CARTRIDGE boxes. Secondly, I always assumed these would be primarely AMERICAN in origin. I commend you on your knowledge of British and German items and the ways you point out they usually attach. I am surprised you gave the American material no mention. Please feel free to comment if you think I am wrong on my thoughts on the following (admittedly, it seems you surely have studied countless more boxes than I). I so often have heard of our poorly funded, loosely organized patriot volunteer army, bringing with them personal gear, making creative use of whatever they had. (in sharp contrast to the well supplied, wealthy standard issue dress of the British.) The surviving American cartridge boxes i've seen are myriad in design and decoration ,and some, though not many, with various brass adornments. In addition , the known surviving plates of ours (at least the beltplates), I am to understand, were almost always plain ; as are most of these dug studded plates. I have no concrete proof of this theory ,so I am asking you : Have you ever seen any boxes with this trunk-type of plate and prong-studded back? Even perhaps one with initials ,possibly, brought with his rifle from the homestead when he volunteered? It does'nt seem implausible to me. In closing,however,I am leaning much stronger "trunk" thanks to you reply!

 

[fieldslayer]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Dear Mr. Vonrall, or Don (I was'nt sure this moniker was you, or a co-author) - Once again, I am grateful to you, for adding the additional input as to American cartridge boxes. I also appreciate you allowing me to play a sort of "devils advocate" for the "other side". I too have detected many revolutionary sites of all kinds , up and down the eastern seaboard. I have uncovered unquestionable Rev. relics (regimental buttons, etc.) , along with a few of these long argued stud backed plates. While some sites were clearly "war virgin only", admittedly, many of these sites exhibited some post-war "spill over" activity (early backmarked buttons, etc.). Similar plates were found at both. Personally I must now, after reviewing the evidence, or lack thereof, conclude that these are likely NOT revolutionary war box plates, but trunk plates indeed. At best, possibly some, later militia or personal cartridge box plates. I expect, with no provinance given, that this applies to the alledged "No.75 Richmond" American "belly box" on page 66-, Neumann & Kravic book, being the only brass plate example shown. (after all, this book came out 36 years ago, we've learned much since then, and appears atypical to the types I'm referring being dug). Don, your vast experience, contributions and dedication to this area of study are well known and highly respected. It also occurred to me; if this persistant belief held any water at all, in all your studies and travels ; Why on earth would you try to deny it? Those who know you, know you to be a man requiring strong evidence ; not mere wishful speculation. This is how a reference publication MUST be based. ....And YES ! Most Respectively , I am very much looking forward to your new revised RW book. Fellow members, if you're not familiar with any of Don Troiani's past publications, treat yourself and watch for this one. It promises to be a "must have" for us Rev war diggers and collectors. (no he did'nt put me up to this...) Been fun sparrin' with ya' Vonrall ! ......Anyone else?

 

[artyfacts]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

Fieldslayer, I have been away and just got the chance to read your thread completely, thanks for the reading. Since my last posting,

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,387033.0.html

I have been in contact with additional trunk restorers , trying to be thorough with the possibility of the trunk plate theory. Every restorer has been consistent, not one has restored a trunk with a clipped corner plate possessing six hooks, clips or prongs. This was from yet another restorer,

Well, based on the photos and description I don't believe we've ever seen
anything like that on a trunk. Then again, we've only worked on a little
over 4,000 trunks in the last 23 years, so we certainly haven't seen it all.

Churchill Barton, Mgr
Brettuns Village, Inc.
PO Box 772
Auburn, ME 04212
FAX: (207)782-7448 Fax
http://www.BrettunsVillage.Com

I believe after my discussions with all the restorers that responded that the six hooked clipped edge trunk plate theory does not hold even the slightest amount of water, not a one has been found by any of the biggest restorers with tens of thousands of trunks restored. There are similar shaped plates on trunks but they are not attached through the wood with six hooks most were inlaid. The obvious is usually the obvious, now you get to keep on guessing with everyone else. Art

 

[artyfacts]

Re: Trunk plates ......time to re-examine

These following proofs are reason to re-examine. I have talked to 14 restorers in three countries. The biggest restorers that have worked on and viewed tens of thousands of trunks through out the country, New England, and across the continent. If there was going to be a plate found on a trunk like the plate I dug, what a better place to start, and still not one surviving trunk with this plate attached or viewed... No picture available anywhere in the world. Not one viewed by the biggest restorers and trunk makers. I really don’t feel that this is going to happen though. I believe it would have happened by now. In speaking with all of the these restorers and especially Steve Freede of The Trunk Shoppe, Marvin Miller, and Pat Morse, I described the plate and other plates with full descriptions and photos. I found that this is not a plate that adorned old trunks. The plates on trunks that carried the personalized initial or initials were smaller and thinner brass and all descript. Some of these plates were sewn in-between leather. These trunks were high end and made to order. The six hooked, cleated, pined, pronged clipped edge plates are not associated with any trunk viewed by any trunk maker or restorer to date. I do not know where the trunk plate theory began but, I'm glad the world isn’t flat. I’m including some of my edited emails to and from Steve Freede owner of The Trunk Shoppe, a Master Trunk builder. I'm also including an email sent to me by Marvin Miller an elite restorer, and a phone quote from Pat Morse, trunk restorer and author. Every party I have contacted had a complete and accurate description of the plate in question along with pictures. I do think its time for collectors and interested parties to rethink this clipped edge plate and its place.

Hi Art, I have worked on trunks for 40 years now and have seen thousands of trunks from all time periods. I lived in New England for about 12 years and since that is where the majority of early American trunks, especially 18th century trunks were made I also saw many from that time period. Now for the past 10 years I have done extensive research on trunks with the internet, so that has exposed me to many more trunks that I would otherwise not have seen. I personally have never seen a plate of this type on a trunk made prior to approximately 1830-1840. Earlier trunks, American or European, that I have seen never had a large leather lock cover and have not had any plate of this type on them. In fact, it was VERY common to have the owners initials put on the trunk with small brass tacks, so why would they need an ID plate? And they did not usually have leather lock covers so that doesn't make sense either. Then around the 1830's to 1850's the small brass tacks used for the initials on trunks seemed to go out of style. The brass tacks that were used were larger and not used to put the initials on the trunks. Also the large leather lock covers started appearing on trunks around the 1840's and became more common on trunks during the 1850's to 60's and were held in place with leather straps and small metal buckles. I've seen thousands of trunks from this time period and have only seen a couple trunks that had small brass plates attached to the leather covers (or anywhere else) and each one had the name engraved on it and measured only about 1 1/4" by 2 - 2 1/2". The brass was not extremely thick but was strong and not easily bent. The brass name plates used by trunk makers were not like this item, but were cast brass and had the trunk maker's name and location on them. These appeared on trunks by a number of makers from about the 1870's to 1880's and were usually attached on the top front with small nails or sometimes rivets. I personally don't believe this was a trunk item, but of course I cannot rule it out completely. But it does seem that if these were used on trunks during the 18th century or even early 19th century, that I would have seen more examples of them by now. Thanks,
Marvin Miller ThisOldTrunk.com

Spoke with Pat Morse by phone. Pat is the author of three trunk books and has already responded earlier in this thread http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,387033.0.html . When told of the response about a trunk being viewed with a plate like the one I dug being attached to a leather lock cover, he stated , “I have never viewed one, I just don’t see it“.

My edited emails to and from Steve Freede,

Steve,
Thank you for your reply. And sorry your under the weather. I really wanted to ask you about these types of plates, whether descript or nondescript that you have personally viewed. The plates I'm asking about were attached to leather flaps that covered lock mechanisms on travel trunks Could you give me a time line for these trunks with the attached leather lock guard and plate, along with the approximate sizes and shapes of these plates, and how they were mounted, (six hooks, four hooks, glued) ? Are there any photos or a complete trunk anywhere that can be viewed? I have talked to restorers around the world and searched the internet I have not been able to find one trunk with this type of plate attached to a leather lock guard. Of all the restorers not a one has viewed such a trunk except for you. That is why it was imperative that I contact you with these questions. The sizes range from 2 x 3 inches and up to 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 inches, all sand cast brass. The hooks are varied, sizes 1/2 to 1 inch long some tapered some straight. Six hooks and four. Steve and Katie, I thank you both for your time and expertise, and a speedy recovery to you Steve, eat an apple.
Best Regards,
Art

Are there any initials or any other markings on it? I've seen several engraved plates attached to lock flaps. some were round and sewn in-between to pieces of leather. the top layer cut to make the bezel to hold it in. Most I have viewed were in saddleback trunks or campaign trunks. Saddlebacks from the last 1/4 1700 into 1800's There again depends on the maker, his skill, his tools, and his available material. Campaign trunks would be much older. Am I getting closer to helping?
Steve

Steve,
No, almost all of the plates have no markings whatsoever. Yes you are getting closer. Did you eat your apple? Any input is new and very well received at that. Makes allot of sense having it sewn between the leather so as not to scratch the lock set or the top of the chest after putting that much work into it. Were any of the plates you viewed clipped cornered and not sewn in and the hook system used? The nondescript plates that have been found are like tanks, I could not bend one by hand if I wanted to. Maybe I should eat an apple. The hooks on the plate I found were not flattened, but rounded over and sticking up over a 1/4 inch away from the back of the plate. This is what is bothering me about the plate I found being used on a trunk flap. If it went through one piece of leather and had to be backed to keep the hooks from scratching the lock set the hooks would of had to of been flattened to also except the leather backing. I'm including a long hooked variety of plate for your viewing. Thanks for your time.
Best Regards,
Art

How are the hooks attached to the plate? Are they actually a nail that is peened into a countersink? Time would rust or corrode them to the point that it may be undetectable unless you specifically look for it. Thick bull hide was used for lock flaps, belts, sheaths etc. the annealed steal pins were peened and rolled back into the leather. Square shank brass tacks were used in thinner leather for strength and decoration and were set the same way.
-------- Are you sure these came from trunks?
Is there any sign of wear on the edges?


The six hooks are part of the casting, a one shot deal. And yes there is one corner on the plate that I found that was slightly worn over the others. Thanks for throwing the apple back at me, it was a good laugh.

Art


Ok So Sand cast begins to ring bells.
It appears to me that if there is any other marks/ file marks, minuscule humps a slight thickening in the back we are going to get an exact idea on how they were made. All sand castings must have a sprue and one or more risers. The sprue is where the molten material is poured in. A larger single shaft, min. 2 times larger then the total of the risers. the risers are evenly spaced to allow air to escape, even flow of material and to tell when the mold was completely full. Sprue was later cut off and filed. that's the mark we are looking for on the back, probably center. It is possible the filed corner is where the sprue was. But the larger the part the harder it is to get the material to flow all the way through. But I'm no expert.But it does explain the difference in the number of cleats. The reason I asked about wear marks is I seem to remember from my childhood old logging harnesses, not fancy, well but built to last and they would have rub plates in crucial areas. sometimes even wrapped with wire to protect the leather from excessive wear. Just a Thought. Hope it helps. If nothing else it's thought provoking!
Steve

Steve ,

Provoking to me means more homework and research. Thanks for the idea and the mini lesson on sand casting, neat stuff. I do smelt lead every now and then to make replacement lead came sections and other parts on old stained glass windows. Not the same but I understand what you are saying. I'm a fourth generation stained glass artist. My great great grandfather worked for Tiffany making his wonderful windows. They do say that age is just a number, the only problem with that is the number is always changing. The info you are giving me is invaluable and very helpful indeed. Well its time for the question of the day, Did you eat your apple? I hear where we are going and its away from trunks. I hope I'm not putting you on the spot but its important hearing it from an expert in your very specialized field. I would like to know if you think these nondescript, six or four cleated clipped corner plates are part of a trunk? If you care to elaborate on the why and why nots I'm all ears...

Art

Art, I'm going to have to say I have never seen that style of plate on any trunks that I have viewed. That is not to say they weren't , just I haven't seen them. So alas, full circle. Back to nothing. Steve

 

[artyfacts]

Would very much appreciate if you could post a image of the GR example with studs you were referring to in the Neumann and Kravic Encyclopedia. Thanks, Art

 

[DocBeav]

Ok, sorry, gonna breathe life into an old thread,,,,,,
Found this clipped plate on a recent hunt.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/526218-1732-house-overflowing-history-involving-t-jefferson-b-franklin-m-lewis.html

I've read several posts about this now and wanted to see if there have ben any changes in opinions or info. Have any trunk plates been found that match ones that look like this with the 6 attachment points on the back? I cleaned it up a little better. You can see some of the brass showing through on one edge where something clipped it (prob my shovel) but even after cleaning it's still pretty grey. Is that just corrosion or was it silver plated?
Trunk PLate? Belt Buckle? Cartridge Box Plate?

Wondering if it could have been the back to something else. The hole in the center makes me think something was attached to the front of it. I saw another here somewhere with 2 holes in it I believe.