humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

[ivan salis]

humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

govenor alexander spotswood of virginia in his oct 24th,1715 letter (see below) stated that a "barcalongo" -- ie (barca - longo * according to wikipedia -- a two to three masted type of lugger vessel often used as "fast" dispatch type or messenger vessels ) was sent from havana to the 1715 fleet wreck sites to pick up VIP'S and treasure and after doing so wrecked about 40 miles northward of st augustine ---

when the original launch boat arrived in havana from the 1715 fleet wrecksites and the survivors in it told casatorres (the govenor of cuba) of the disaster at 2 am in the morning --the first words from his mouth were -- has any of the kings treasure been recovered?-- told "no" --casatores set his sargent major to work putting together a salvage fleet --8 vessels in all ---- one "fragata" or small frigate type vessel ( these type of small multi masted "fast" vessels were often used as mail boats or messenger vessels aka "adviso's" - advice boats as well) ---and 7 balandras (single masted very shallow draft sloop rig type vessels) ideal for shallow water "salvage work vessel's" ---- these vessels arrived on scene sept 10th ,1715--- a mere 44 days later the spotswood letter was wrote. --- could the "fragata" sent from havana be the "barca - longo" spoke of by spotswood ? since both are multi masted vessels and are used as "dispatch / mail type boats"--plus all the others are all "single masted sloop type vessels"

could this fragata have been sent to recover high value "royal" items and persons from the 1715 fleet wreck site and "fast ship" them forward to spain along with the news of the fleets wrecking?

if so what is the name of this "fragata"? sent as part of the rescue fleet - because I'm sure some record of what she was carrying should be found in the archives in cuba or st augustine as sending a copy of the manifest of cargoes loaded to a nearby port in case of vessel loss was a standard spanish practice in those days.

if the fragata's name is uncovered -- --my nassau sound wreck might have a "name" and a manifest as well

 

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[FISHEYE]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

Ivan,

What is a "barco"

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

barco --a english word -- aka known as "buque" -- --- spotswood used "barcalongo" leaving out the - properly its "barca - longo" which is a two to three masted lugger type fishing vessel ( the design was built to be quite fast as they had to get fish back to market rapidly to avoid spoilage back in those days) --due to their smallish size and great speed these vessels were often used as mail boats or messenger boat --or "adviso" fleet advice boats between larger vessels by the spanish

the spanish often used smallish multi masted vessels they called frigatillas or small fragata (frigate class type vessels) in this role -- the english would have deemed them as "barca -longo"'s or mail boat / dispatch type vessels

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

Barco cant be a english word as its on my dominican shipwreck map that was drawn by the guy that found the wreck,its all in spanish or the language that they speak down there.the wreck is possibly around 1600 or earlier.Also pedazos is on the map

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

mesa is used to mean a flat table rock area in the american midwest and is used in english although its a "offically" a spanish "word" -- words tend to flow in and out of other folks langauges as they come into contact with one another --- like "bark" and " barque" -- "barco" "or "barca" ( there is two ways of spelling the same word ) which means ship in a very general way -- if on a map it most likely means "a sunken ship" spot if upon a map written or drawn by a spanish speaking person unless theres a anchor mark with it then its likely to be a "ship anchoring spot"

barco pedazos * means --ship smashed to bits --ie "shipwreck" spot in spanish

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

pedazos del naufragio del barco
pieces of the shipwreck of the boat

 

[Chagy]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

pedazos del naufragio del barco
pieces of the shipwreck of the boat

That is correct....

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

seeing the words in context -- I agree 100% --- pedazos del naufragio del barco ---means
( pieces of the shipwreck of the boat )

 

[Chagy]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

Finally I was able to find a Barca longa or Barco longo in a Spanish document..So I stand corrected....longo has to be a Spanglish a mixture of Spanish and English since the correct translation of long is largo.
Anyway, Here is another good clue...As per Duro’s H. Jennings was send to the wreck sites in 2 bergantines and 3 barcos longos.

Try to find another account were it mentions the types of vessels on which Jennings was traveling...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barco-Longo — or barca-longa, a large Spanish fishing-boat, navigated with lug-sails, and having two or three masts [...] common in the Mediterranean — Falconer, William, An universal dictionary of the Marine [1769] (1776).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Early Spanish Sailing Ships
By Jerry Wilkinson
-
There is a huge variety of sailing ships used by Spain. This page is not meant as an authority on ships and only as a guide for general interpreting Spanish writings of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries. Those listed below are a few that may be encountered while doing Florida Keys research.
-
The smallest boat generally mentioned is a "lancha." This is an open longboat carried aboard or towed. Others boats of this class could be "botes" or a simple boat and the "esquife" or skiff. Generally they are rowed; however, some have a makeshift sail and mast. Usually a larger version of the lancha is called a "pinaza."
The "chalupa" or shallop implies a swift sailing single-deck cargo/transport vessel and could be as large as 75 tons.
The "patache" is a fast, row-sailer used for courier and reconnaissance service, but sometimes for coastal patrols.
The "barco" can simply mean boat, but generally implies a row-sail freighter, transport or fisherman with a low freeboard for ease of rowing. The barco gavarra is a large version and the barco longo is a small version.


Ivan, it seems there is a bit of contradiction on the type of vessel know as barca longa or barco longo...Many sources say it has 2 or 3 masts but other say it’s a single masted vessel....

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

chagy I'm of the veiw that the 7 balandras were single masted (sloop) designed vessels sent from havana to be used as treasure recoverey type vessels --- while the one fragata (frigate) that was sent was a multi masted vessel (frigate-type design--similar to a "patache" or messenger vessel) and that it was sent there on a royal treasure item recovery / VIP'S and direct from the scene "information" gathering mission and was to go onward directly to spain upon be loaded up. --and it was this vessel that went down in nassau sound *

barca (barco) -longo --- means a fast handling small vessel often used for messenger boats and the like --a "spanish" fragata -- could easily be called by the english a "barca -longo" -- as the type of vessel and its basic usage is the same --for both --- the fragata and a barca - longo.--smallish fast boat .

now I need the name of the "fragata" sent from havana on the recovery mission --once I find that then its onward to find a manifest in the archives in cuba or st augustine - to see what was loaded aboard her at the salvage camp area. -- a copy of the vessels cargo manifest was normally sent as standard operating policy to a port for record keeping in case of loss of the vessel and cargo in transit.

 

[ivan salis]

ok folks -debate time some sources say "barca-longo" 2 or 3 masted others 1 mast

now some say "barca -longo" while others say "barco -longo" ---plus there is some disagreement from various sources as to wheither it means a smallish 2 or 3 masted "lugger" type fast sailing vessel (like commonly used as a "dispatch" vessel --similar to a small frigate)
OR
wheither its a single masted sloop type of vessel --- a photo of it or at least links to the info to back up your veiwpoints on the matter would be most helpful. --thanks --- Ivan

 

[Chagy]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

I just found this.....it talks about building a barco longo or fragata so the barco longo may be similar to a fragata..But then I found this pic of a fragata and it seems to be a single masted vessel...it would help you alot if someone could find pic of a barco longo or barca longa

Sociedad, historia y lengua en el Paraguay‎ - Page 315
by Germán de Granda, Germán de Granda Gutiérrez - Education - 1988 - 628 pages

con gran vigor, a partir de 1715, fecha en que se funda, ... de dirigir en
Asunción las tareas de construcción de un barco longo o fragata que sirviera de

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

ah a single masted "fragata" would fit the bill nicely as well -- being its a differant sailing design (lateen rigged style) than the "balandras" ( straight up and down type single masted sloop type rig) --the spanish in their records--- record 7 balandras and 1 fragata * dispatched from havana -- now looking up "barca - longo" a term spotswood used in his "report" --- it says its a 2 to 3 masted lugger design -- however its also notes that it was used as a " fast dispatch vessel" which looking at the fragata design shown it is clearly a fast moving type combo sailing / rowible type vessel --ideal for such a task as dispatch carrying .

un (means one) barco longo "o"(or) fragata was being built --- so it says above -- humm thus it seems barco longo (aka "barca -longa") and fragata are interchangible terms for the same basic type and size of vessel during the 1715 era * just as I thought .--so spotswood might have meant exactly this type of "barca longa" or "fragata" when he wrote his report . --

now onward to her name !!! -- the name of the fragata sent from havana !!! then on to her manifest!!!---its high time we put a name on the nassau sound wreck and figgered out her exact cargo.

oh by the way --thanks chagy --I thought this all long but its nice to verify it in print from another person.

 

[ivan salis]

humm as I thought -- "fragata / barco longo / barca longo" are the same vessel*

I have often thought that my wrecksite --in nassau sound was the fragata sent out by the spanish asone of the 8 original "rescue and recovery fleet"-- but in his report of oct 24th , 1715 governer spotswood used yje trerm "barcalongo" rather thatn fragata or frigate -- but in my mind the time frames matched up as to sent and lossage .--- will a clue has fell into place at long last.

according to a bit of info # kindly provided by chagy * the term "barco longo" and fragata mean the same ( # it was describing the building of a"barco longo o fragata " (barco longo or fragata) in 1715 -- --my ideal all along was that the 1 "fragata" sent along with 7 balandra type vessels from havana could be the "barcalongo" (barca -longa properly) written about as being lost in nassau sound , off amelia island. once it was proven that fragata and barcalongo were one in the same a type of vessel name wize -- the fragata's name could be found using the spanish havana, cuban harbor exist reports of the time of which vessels left -- and also once a name was found --the manifest of cargo carried should be findible as well hopefully ---I think I'm now much much closer to "attaching" a possible name to the nassau sound wreck
thanks chagy -- I thought this all along but --its nice to fill in the gaps "for sure". Ivan

barco or barca longo it is spelt both ways but means exactly the same-- thus a fragata / barco longo / barca longo / barcalongo are all one in the same .

thus the spanish say " a fragata sent from havana" -- which matches up with spotswoods "a barcalongo" sent from havana --they are one in the same !!!

now to find from havana port "departure" records the name of the fragata --- plus once loaded with goods a manifest should be on file --standard practice of the day was to file a copy of the manifest of goods loaded aboat at a port --either havana or st augustine in this case.

chagys data --

Sociedad , historia Y lenguna en el paraguay by German de Grande Gutierrez--- Education 1988 - 628 pages (on P 315)

Con gran vigor , a partir de 1715 , fecha que se funda ... Asuncion las tardes of construccion de un barco longo o fragata que sirviera de

my PS on the letter from oct 24 th ,1715 by spotswood --note use of "barcalongo" in letter .

 

[elle]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

Ivan...here is another salvage balandra (one-masted sailing sloop) to add to our wise Chagy's list.

The "San Nicolas de Vari y San Joseph" was an official carrier that traveled between La Havana and Palmar de Ayz.
This ship, unfortuantely, is not the one you are seeking.
Pedro de la Vega, who was sailing back to La Havana from San Agustin on this balandra, and who carried mail to the camps at Palmar de Ayz, said he was captured by pirates and the English took command of his launch.
At least you can now count four names.
And ...no...please ...no coin...I just also want to help!

 

[Salvor6]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

I bought a "chalupa" at Taco Bell. It was good!

 

[ivan salis]

Re: humm "barca - longo" is a two to three masted "lugger type" vessel -

the "rescue and recovery"fleet sent from havana constisted of 7 balandras and only one "fragata" sent from havana or "barcalongo" as it was called by govenor spotswood of Oct 24rh , 1715 (both words mean the same exact type of vessel ) its now 100% clear to me that its the "fragata's" / "barcalongo's" name that I'm after

with the fragata's name it's exact cargo manifest (of what it was carrying from the 1715 fleet wreck sites back to spain might be able to be tracked down in the archives. )--- the havana harbor logs should show its name from when it departed the harbor as one of the 8 salvage "fleet" vessels .

thus a name and a accounting of its cargo could be attached to the nassau sound wreck site at long last --after many years of folks guessing what it is /was.