Conversion Question

[bigscoop]

This isn't really a shipwreck question, but because of the related subject matter I'm hoping some of you might have an idea how early values can be roughly translated into today's numbers, such as "a million pesos" in 1556....what would that value roughly translate into today? How do you put a current estimated value on these old numbers?

 

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[inletsurf]

This isn't really a shipwreck question, but because of the related subject matter I'm hoping some of you might have an idea how early values can be roughly translated into today's numbers, such as "a million pesos" in 1556....what would that value roughly translate into today? How do you put a current estimated value on these old numbers?

Are we assuming that today's value is based on current equivalent worth driven by 454 years of inflation; or current metal prices based on silver or gold coinage, or are you considering the "historical value"?

 

[Mackaydon]

I'm responding from the standpoint of Purchasing Power.
The peso of that day was the 8-reales. Each 8-reales weighed about 27.5 grams and was about 92% pure. From that, you can compute today's intrinsic value of the silver in each 8-reales. Take that figure times 1M and IMHO, I believe you'll have your answer.
Don.....

 

[jeff k]

Inflation compounded at 1% per year = $91,601,735
Silver value = $20,335,347
Gold value = $1,088,347,782

 

[bigscoop]

To all, "thanks for the replies!"
So a million pesos in gold, silver and jewelry in 1556 would be considerable in regards to physical amount? What I'm attempting to get a rough fix on is just how much documented treasure, in terms of "quantity" that actually fell into the hands of Florida Indians, primarily during the 1500's? I realize there's no way to get an exact fix on this physical amount, but I am wanting to gather a better general perspective on the issue. Are we talking a huge amount in terms of quantity, or was it only a modest amount in terms of quantity? Just trying to find a fair way, or means, of getting a better perspective as to how much shipwreck treasure may have been distributed within these Florida Indian cultures? Since these accounts are always in terms of value it's very difficult to gather even a reasonably accurate perspective of the possible amount. If anyone cares to share their best educated guess I'm all ears. Thanks!

 

[Mackaydon]

Contraband, of course, was not noted on the manifest; it could be 1-100% more than the manifest .
So your estimate probably should be affected by an estimate of contraband.
Don.......

 

[bigscoop]

Contraband, of course, was not noted on the manifest; it could be 1-100% more than the manifest .
So your estimate probably should be affected by an estimate of contraband.
Don.......

And there's the biggest problem......usually there is no specific ship name/names and likewise no related manifest to track down. I have no idea what possible cargo these accounts might involve? From what I've researched I'm guessing contraband probably equaled or exceeded what was taken directly from the unknown number of accessible wrecks. I also suspect, that since these items were visible even during De Soto, Ponce De Leon, etc., that there were a number of earlier unrecorded wrecks accessible to these Indians. It's even harder to get a rough fix on how much of this treasure the Spanish actually recovered since there appears to be very little evidence that they ever recovered even a small fraction of it. What I'm trying to assess in all of this is just how much of it might still be out there, still randomly scattered about the mainland in their original places of loss or hiding. In other words, is there, or was there, enough of it to warrant the occasional search for these things? This is what I'm trying to assess.

 

[Salvor6]

OK bigscoop, come clean. Enough of this nonsense. Exactly what did you find and how much? Send me a PM and I promise not to tell anyone.

 

[bigscoop]

OK bigscoop, come clean. Enough of this nonsense. Exactly what did you find and how much? Send me a PM and I promise not to tell anyone.

Salvor6, I wish I could tell you that I've found a boatload but that just isn't the case. The purpose of my repeated posting of this subject is to hopefully gather more educated insight and input from those who have more knowledge, or at least a shared interest in the subject. There is a mystery here that is possibly worth the continued exploring, especially for the hobbyist. On one hand we have documented accounts of large quantities of shipwreck treasure being carried inland, yet on the other end of this research there is very little evidence that even the smallest portion of it was ever recovered. So what happened to it? In the time of De Soto and De Leon and even Menendez the country of Florida was vast forest and swamp with many obvious hardships and dangers, it cost many of these early explorers their very lives, and this in a country that even after the time of Menendez wrecked ships and their survivors were still being looted, or worse, and with regular frequncey. So where did it all go? By the time the slavers arrived these early Indian cultues were already thinned by disease, Spanish crualties, and internal warfare. Yet in all of it there seldom appears any evidence that these treasures were ever recovered. Now add to all of this that in recent times these items are still being found at archeological digs and one can only assume that perhaps a great deal of it is still out there. This isn't a hunt for a huge treasure trove, but rather it is an attempt at conducting an educated hunt for it's many long forgotten and scattered pieces. All I'm wishing to do here is to share what information I have, and continue to find, with those who are willing to do likewise. However, as it appears that there aren't too many people who share this same area of interest, I'm about to wave the white flag and drop the subject. Before I ever started this thread I decided it would be my last attempt at trying to get a discussion started about interesting subject. "Nonesense"....could be? But then again,....from everything I've researched, perhaps not.

 

[jeff k]

I've done quite a bit of research on the subject, and my advice would be to forget this project. The Spanish made contact with the Ais and Calusa Indians in 1565-66, and probably barted with them to acquire any treasure. King Carlos of the Calusa tribe acquired much of treasure, and kept it in a pit. It is now known that his village was on Mound Key, and this island is a protected archaeology site. The Spanish killed Carlos, and may have found the treasure at that time. If the treasure is still on the island then it's off limits to treasure hunters. There may be some artifacts buried in Indian mounds, but these too are protected sites. The Ais village is now covered with hundreds of homes, and the mounds in this area were bulldozed many years ago for road fill.

 

[bigscoop]

I've done quite a bit of research on the subject, and my advice would be to forget this project. The Spanish made contact with the Ais and Calusa Indians in 1565-66, and probably barted with them to acquire any treasure. King Carlos of the Calusa tribe acquired much of treasure, and kept it in a pit. It is now known that his village was on Mound Key, and this island is a protected archaeology site. The Spanish killed Carlos, and may have found the treasure at that time. If the treasure is still on the island then it's off limits to treasure hunters. There may be some artifacts buried in Indian mounds, but these too are protected sites. The Ais village is now covered with hundreds of homes, and the mounds in this area were bulldozed many years ago for road fill.

Thanks for sharing your input Jeff. What you say is true, and as you pointed out most of the prime locations are protected and the other remaining obstacles, such as modernization, are enormous, indeed. But, from what I have researched, the period 1565 - 66 was still a very treacherous period, even for the Spanish. In 1562 Coligny still offers us a first hand account of the Indians he sighted at the mouth of St. John's River, "Indians wore ornaments of gold, silver, copper, pearl and turquoise......." which pretty much stands as evidence that the Spanish had little effect in the region up to that point, which allows for at least a 30 - 40 year window for earlier items to become scattered all over the mainland. And again, from what I have researched, even in later years the Spanish were very uneasy and cautious in their travels, seldom venturing too far away from known and trusted routes. We tend to believe that the Spanish wondered all of the Florida mainland whenever they wanted and with absolute authority, but from what I have researched this simply wasn't the case, and in fact, in many regions, it was quite the opposite. The King of Spain was also to receive his portion of all treasure discovered in the region, and yet every account I have located and read are usually in explanation as to why none of these things could be recovered or found in Florida. Missionaries had no better luck, especially in the more hostile regions, such as the Calusa and Ais, and even in some regions of the Timucua. This was pretty much the standard all through the 1500's and well into the 1600's. Also, let us not forget the perils and time frame of Jonathan Dickinson, even to the middle of the 17th century we have evidence that these isolated Indian tribes still had very limited regard or respect of Spanish rule. It just makes no sense to me that so much treasure could come to shore during this period with so little evidence that even the smallest portions were ever recovered? And then the coming of what I call "the dark years" as these Indian tribes just seem to rapidly vanish into thin air? 150 years of shipwrecks and continued "documented" Indian looting, no existing records of accomplished recoveries. Where did it all go? The last thing these Indians wanted was the angry and often brutal Spanish entering their territory in search of gold, yet they still took it, and when the Spanish did finally arrive......for the most part, they found nothing? Makes no sense.

 

[Panfilo]

Though there are different and contradictory accounts, it is said that the Atocha carried 35 tons of silver plus 161 pieces of gold valued at one million pesos (Dr Duncan Mathewson states its closer to half a million pesos) and many people value this at 400 million US dollars. The contraband issue is very tricky as Don says it could be anything you might want to imagine but I would estimate it on a conservative side close to 30 or 40% of the registered load. Maybe this can help you though you’re still off by sixty six years, 1622-1556= 66.
Panfilo

 

[FISHEYE]

If you happen to find any treasure that the indians looted from wrecks most likely it wont be in the same form that they found it in.The indians made arrowheads or other tools out of silver and maybe gold.They pounded it out flat and made breastplates and necklaces maybe even jewelry.Maybe they just buried what coins and artifacts they found to use later then forgot where they buried it,or worse they died or got killed.You have to remember that back in the indian days they had no metal items to play or work with.So finding this stuff was all new to them.

Matt Mattson did some research on this and even made a video.Kingdom of the Ais.Aviation adventure film, looking for clues to the extinct civilization Spain and others feared in 1500's Florida.

http://www.treasuresites.com/

http://dotsub.com/view/5a9c2779-5ae3-4d29-b979-c36a2b20693c

 

[ivan salis]

well if theres 8 pesos per coin-- 1 million peso's would be 125,000 coins at a value of 8 reale / pesos) each to make 1 million pesos -- a old time 8 reale / peso silver coin would be about the size of a modern era 1921 morgan silver dollar in size and basic silver purity --since the silver US dollar was based off the spanish piece of 8 * reale ( later called peso) coin

to get a rough ideal what the base metal silver value would be take 125,000 times the spot value of a silver dollar * 125,000 x 20.88 -- $2,610,000

of course the "historical / coin collector" value would be well above the "scrap silver value" of 20.88 each , I'm sure.

 

[bigscoop]

Though there are different and contradictory accounts, it is said that the Atocha carried 35 tons of silver plus 161 pieces of gold valued at one million pesos (Dr Duncan Mathewson states its closer to half a million pesos) and many people value this at 400 million US dollars. The contraband issue is very tricky as Don says it could be anything you might want to imagine but I would estimate it on a conservative side close to 30 or 40% of the registered load. Maybe this can help you though you’re still off by sixty six years, 1622-1556= 66.
Panfilo

It's interesting that you would bring up the 1622 wreck of the Atocha, and the 66 year time span you pointed out. Dickinson was shipwrecked in 1696, 74 years past the loss of the Atocha, and even then the Indians were still stripping the survivors of their possessions and gathering and "hiding" whatever they could. We'll never know how many wrecks and survivors these Indians looted or had access to, but what is certain is that this looting went on for nearly two centeries. There is one account I came across of the Spanish returning to a village to punish the Indians, in which they eventually recovered only one cache of coins and some belongings. But what is also learned from this is that the Indians did, and were accustom to, sneaking off in secret to haphazardly hide what they took. From what I can tell thus far, this was in part because of a fear of Spanish retaliation, but in later years it was also done because of the low level of trust that existed within, and between, these various Indian tribes. Today, and this is simply my own opinion, I'm fairly certain that a great amount of this treasure did find it's way into Indian hands and that it was most likely scattered about all over the Florida mainland. In the time of the ruling kings, such as Carlos, the best of this was probably transferred to these various ruling locations, but in later years I suspect it was probably harvested and scattered about and hidden with less ruling control or direction. During their entire occupation over Florida the Spanish had very little resources in place and the Indians always knew in advance when they were coming, to avoid them it was a simple matter of escaping into the mainland forest and swamps and waiting for them to leave. I think this was pretty much a routine event.

 

[Mackaydon]

For what it's worth, my recollection is we used the figure of 50% contraband when salvaging the 'Capitana' (1654) off Ecuador. That figure was estimated as being higher than in the vessel's previous voyages over the same course, since in prior years, the 'Capitana' didn't run aground in the same area; but overloaded with contraband in 1654, she grounded.
Don....