Archaeologist admits to destroying shipwrecks

[fibberjibber]

Archies just get pissed that amateurs with metal detectors find better stuff than they do, and we didn't need schooling to do it. They spend all that money on schooling/loans to find out they aren't making dink for money.

I have to firmly disagree. Archaeologists have found far better and more amazing finds than any I have seen on here. Any. Not to discount what is found with a MD!! But I have seen much of this stuff in museum archives and I am sure the rest I could see in museums somewhere. Plus, they have things to drool over in the archives.
I would say that the problem is more about greed of control than anything else. Many of the older archaeologists I have had the privilege to work with or know actually see the value in MDers. Furthermore, many agree that the museums and universities have more in their collections than they can financially manage as it is so to add more (in most cases) is redundant and fiscally moronic. Some do confide, albeit privately, that the belief by some archaeologists who feel the need to control all artifacts and dismiss MDers and divers as robbers is narrow-minded and, frankly, stupid.
So I believe the challenge to many MDers is to avoid sounding like some of their archaeologist counterparts when you choose abusive and non-productive language to represent the entire group. I know I hate it when they do it to us and I am the first to point it out.
One more thing, all archaeologists rarely care about most of the stuff we bring up. What they do care about is the context and worry that valuable information could be lost. I believe that is a valid point but care should be taken to not apply that to all relics at all sites. In many many cases there is little that can be gleaned from modern metallic artifacts that isn't known already. Unless it is representing a new site that was previously unknown and is historically significant. Even then, tho, its usually not the items themselves but the site that is important.

My post was meant to be half comical, but I can only comment seriously on what I have personally experienced. My brother found a copper celt axe head in a park one day. He contacted some museums and such to inquire about it's age/significance. Well he talked to a female archie from a very well known university and rather than offer any help, she basically called my brother a thief and demanded to know where he found it. He was actually contemplating donating it but instead told her directly that he wouldn't reveal where he found it and that he would be selling it now to fund another detector.

My bad- didnt catch the comical angle. Whoever that female archie was is the exact reason why I do respond to threads like this one. She is an idiot. And she may be in the majority, I cant say for sure. What she should have done, and what archies did years ago (this according to many aged professors I have mustered the gonads to have an honest debate on this with) they would have been excited and congratulatory towards your brother. They would have quizzed him on the location, of course, so that they could do a test excavation to see if it was an isolated find or a tip-off of a larger site. But they would not have called him a thief.
Morons like her miss their opportunity to potentially discover a great site by dismissing your brother. They also miss a golden opportunity to open lines of communication between the academic and avocational treasure hunters. She should have cultivated a relationship with your brother and invited him in on the inevitable surveys and test excavations on that site. She should have opened her doors and archives to show him the intense work archies do to preserve knowledge buried in the dirt. Given him a greater appreciation for what archies do and what their goals are. And he could have returned to her and her colleagues the same favor to educate them on what average joes MDers are and what they do and their goals are.
I believe there is room for both, and a wealth of opportunity and knowledge that can be shared between the two 'sides'. And when I am done playing, and I have my degrees, and I am a full-fledged archie teaching at a university doing my own research and excavations, I am going to shock that stuffy world of theirs and the knuckle-draggers here when I begin to use MDers to help with my research and I to help them with theirs. *(I must note here that the stuffies and the knuckle-draggers I mean are the ones that are on the fringes of their respective groups- the ones who are downright hateful towards the other group. Not the majority by any means)
And I will tell you, I already have tons of support from both faculty and MDers so I know its more than a possibility
Thanks, and I am sorry for your brother's experience. I dont blame him one bit, except I would probably keep such a neat relic!!
-Eric

 

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[Scar]

I have found that many science majors need to go to charm school also. Many lack communication skills that are necessary to talk with the general population.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Some reason they think they know more & i guess they may in some areas like horse hair & chicken bones?History is for all of us to enjoy

 

[fibberjibber]

Some reason they think they know more & i guess they may in some areas like horse hair & chicken bones?History is for all of us to enjoy

I know what you mean. I dont even have my PhD in archaeology yet and I already know more about chicken hair and horse bones than I ever thought I would.
Relicdud, check your misguided ridicule at the door. I bet some archie could just as easily say your knowledge of expertise is probably limited to pop tops, loose change, and bottle caps. Dont forget that many reference guides and books on relic identification or history were only possible because of the relentless research required to amass that knowledge. Research done exclusively or at least in part by archies.

Now, on a personal level, my area of archaeological experience and future expertise is on artifacts 8,000-35,000 years old. No metal. My MD experience wont help me at all there. Or one of my mentors either who assisted in excavating the 3.5 million year old Lucy skeleton in Africa. No metal there either. The historical excavations I have been a part of yielded much, much more valuable information beyond the crusty iron nails or coins. The pottery at a historical Native American site for example, can have a rough date placed on it if a piece of trade copper pot or manufactured iron arrowhead. But without the pottery shards we cant tell what group or verify the date guessed at with the pot or arrowhead. And excavating the fire pits we can tell how healthy they were and how long they stayed and how big a group by what they ate, how much they ate, and how many fire pits there are.
So dont discount the archies. There is a lot of knowledge in them too. Even you must agree that any moron can swing a MD and dig a hole. But you have to be smart enough to research not only WHERE to look but to have a network of folks like on this website with smarts to learn about WHAT you dug up.
Folks who read reference guides and books

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Fibberjibber,
After reading your posts, while you might think you're a "cool, middle of the road future archy" I would have to say that you already have acquired the archy slanted point of view. Go back and read your posts and see if you can figure them out. That alone will show you if you can seperate yourself in the way you claim...

 

[fibberjibber]

Fibberjibber,
After reading your posts, while you might think you're a "cool, middle of the road future archy" I would have to say that you already have acquired the archy slanted point of view. Go back and read your posts and see if you can figure them out. That alone will show you if you can seperate yourself in the way you claim...

Nah. I am just trying to put the other perspective on here so that those who would otherwise dismiss an archie see the folly in their views since I hear both sides saying basically the same thing about each other. I make no bones about the fact that I am (or will be) an archaeologist first since that is how I will make my living. But if you read posts I put on other threads on this topic, you will see that I intend on bringing MDers along on surveys and inviting them on excavations if a significant site is found. Now, on most of my own excavations I will have no use for a MD. But when I assist on more recent site surveys, MD could be a real asset. This is where I intend on breaking that barrier in the academic world. Yes, many of them covet their knowledge but so do you or you would if you found a particularly lucrative site.
I dont know where you got that quote from but I appreciate the compliment. I dont think that way.
I also dont have to prove to you or anyone here that I am what I claim. I dont have the resources yet anyway- I have to apply for a 30,000 dollar grant first. No, when the time comes I will prove by actions, not typed words in my living room. The question right now is, when someone like me is talking, will you listen?
Good discussion tho!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Then I guess my answer is, no!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon fibber jibber, my friend: You must remember that many here are fighting what they see as a 'survival factor', which is accelerated by certain acts which tend to bear that out. It certainly doesn't help when certain titled individuals make arrogant remarks on either side.

Myself, I cannot understand why a compromise cannot be achieved. Most wrecks and sites are merely duplicates of an already overly full archaeological data base and the salvors should be allowed to do their thing, but first, I agree, the 'individual wreck' should be evaluated as to it's 'serious' additive factor to present accumulated duplicate knowledge of similar wrecks of that type and era. Since the state is the financial benefactor, the state should pay the archaeologists, not the generally cash strapped salvor !.

I am a land salvor, one might say. I have found the long lost, legendary Jesuit mine, of Tayopa. It had been lost for over 400 years. No archaeological team would ever come up with the finances and time etc to have looked for it.

I certainly have no objection to an archaeological team supervising 'their' phase of the work at Tayopa when the time comes, but the recovered metal basically should be mine, with appropriate specimens going to the gov't for archaeological purposes naturally, and a certified copy of all written archaeological data that is recovered, with the first right to act upon them legally.

For example, I found how they were illegally shipping metal from Mexico to a small bay below Matamoros for transshipment to Rome, and also uncovered the plot with the Dutch to take over North America, the real reason that they were expelled in 1767.

I also encountered a giant aquatic serpent in the Rio Fuerte. I sent this information to a certain North Eastern University's Herpetology dept, only to be ignored completely. The same for the skeletons of the red haired giants of 9 - 12 ft tall which I offered to send at my expense.

I only started receiving courteous responses after I was elected into the elite Explorers Club.

www.explorers.org

As a fun program I traced the exodus of one of the lost Tribes of Israel across the Med, to the shallow coastal regions off of the coast of Spain, then on to the Americas, across the south to Ariz, then down to Mexico city. This is of course is the origin of the Aztecs and their constant reference to Aztlan, the infamous place of the reeds, a corruption of Atlantis. Another story there, yes it did exist.

Shucks it is fun and I am having the time of my life, but without Archaeologists, so who loses? Fortunately my end does not carry the expenses of marine search and recovery.

I do not have a degree in Archaeology, it is in another unrelated area, but in any event degrees should have no bearing on land or marine salvage. So I echo the plaintive cry, "why can't we get along for the benefit of science and personal profit they are 'not' conflicting goals.

As the professional salvors thin out, so do many job opportunities for archaeologists, other than state employed ones. In self protection they should back the salvors.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[fibberjibber]

Then I guess my answer is, no!

Then you are part of the problem. And no surprise to me, since you actively look for investors to help you and your commercial operation dredge the bottoms off the coast of Florida. I am sure you have had your run-ins in the past with archaeologists who did not agree with your methods but what I am working for/proposing is a better future.
Myself, I would like to see something akin to the reporting and finders fee they employ in the UK. Everybody wins. But so long as there are folks like you who open their mouths without thinking, the rules you hate so much will not change.

 

[Scar]

Fibber, I am thinking you are speakin to the wrong crowd.

 

[diggemall]

I gotta throw my two cents in on this one as a few years ago the Wi State Archaeologist here in WI essentially declared ALL state lands off-limits to detectorists.

If we use my home state as an example, WI has 5,633,610 acres held by the State & Federal govt.
Assuming an excavation "pit" of 1 sq yd, that translates into 27,266,672,400 potential "pits". (That's 27+ BILLION)
Even if they were capable of excavating a single pit in only two days (I know - that's too fast) and IF they were able to work 1,000 pits simultaneously and continuously, 365 days / year;
IT WOULD TAKE OVER 149,000 YEARS TO EXAMINE EVERY SQUARE YARD OF STATE AND FEDERAL LAND (never mind County, municipal, and private land) IN THIS STATE ALONE !

Sorry, only a complete and total moron would think for even a heartbeat that it all has to be "protected" for "professionals" to exhume, when such a task is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

The arrangement they have in the UK is far more practical & expedient, IMHO.

Diggem'

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Then I guess my answer is, no!

Then you are part of the problem. And no surprise to me, since you actively look for investors to help you and your commercial operation dredge the bottoms off the coast of Florida. I am sure you have had your run-ins in the past with archaeologists who did not agree with your methods but what I am working for/proposing is a better future.
Myself, I would like to see something akin to the reporting and finders fee they employ in the UK. Everybody wins. But so long as there are folks like you who open their mouths without thinking, the rules you hate so much will not change.

and you prove my above point- a wolf in sheep's clothing...

I've never dredged the bottoms off the coast of Florida. I have never had a run in with an archaeologist that did not agree with my methods. As a matter of fact I follow their methods to a "T".

Because I believe in proper archaeology AND private sector salvage.

Of course you would like to see something akin to the UK, you're a wanna be archaeologist.
Which is exactly what I stated previously. You used key terms and exposed yourself to have those awful ideals in your posts.

The true irony of it is, that you are waiting on a grant to obtain your formal education. Your grant will come from taxpayers like me. You feel as if you have a privilege to historical and cultural sites over me. You will then again take taxpayer dollars possibly as income and to fund your “hobby”. While on the other hand I’m a self made man. I make my money and spend it to collect historical artifacts yet somehow I’m the bad guy that is taking away culture from ummmm myself and those like me?!!? Just imagine how much I could find if I didn’t forcibly have monies taken from me to fund people like you that live off of others and mine hard earnings. Yeah getting investors is such a bad thing compared to living off of taxpayers monies…

And that is why I said I wouldn’t listen to you. It’s a voice I’ve already heard. Maybe you should talk to some of the working archaeologists that work with private sector salvage.

So I guess the only question now is will you be one of “them” or one of the good guys?

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Don Jose?I am a land salvor, one might say. I have found the long lost, legendary Jesuit mine, of Tayopa. It had been lost for over 400 years. No archaeological team would ever come up with the finances and time etc to have looked for it.========I for 1 would love to see some of the Jesuit artifacts.... That is a hell of a find!

 

[mad4wrecks]

I wonder where these artifacts ended up?

From the state of Florida Memory Project.

 

[Salvor6]

I swear I saw those exact rapiers on Ebay last July.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sigh, I am singularly impressed with the excellent care and preservation of historically important artifacts owned by the tax payers of Florida , as shown in the picture of Roger Smith. Why aren't they in tanks undergoing preservation?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I guess that's a (big fat No) ,on any jesuit artifacts Don Jose? In order for anyone to take you seriously you would need a few trinkets from the right time line ------------- 400 yr. old trinkets

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning relic dude:

you posted -->I guess that's a (big fat No) ,on any jesuit artifacts Don Jose?
*****************
Yep, not yet for many reasons. For a fuller story why and what has been posted so far go to --> Treasure net -> Treasure legends -> Tayopa-. enter for some thousands of pages on Tayopa, pictures, documents, titles etc etc. THEN make up your mind.

After you have read the presented data, post your pro or con. Have fun.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[fibberjibber]

I gotta throw my two cents in on this one as a few years ago the Wi State Archaeologist here in WI essentially declared ALL state lands off-limits to detectorists.

If we use my home state as an example, WI has 5,633,610 acres held by the State & Federal govt.
Assuming an excavation "pit" of 1 sq yd, that translates into 27,266,672,400 potential "pits". (That's 27+ BILLION)
Even if they were capable of excavating a single pit in only two days (I know - that's too fast) and IF they were able to work 1,000 pits simultaneously and continuously, 365 days / year;
IT WOULD TAKE OVER 149,000 YEARS TO EXAMINE EVERY SQUARE YARD OF STATE AND FEDERAL LAND (never mind County, municipal, and private land) IN THIS STATE ALONE !

Sorry, only a complete and total moron would think for even a heartbeat that it all has to be "protected" for "professionals" to exhume, when such a task is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

The arrangement they have in the UK is far more practical & expedient, IMHO.

Diggem'

Ok, so I have a question- specifically to Diggem, but all can chime in. I am curious where the lines should be drawn. Would you find it acceptable to dig a Native American burial site? Nevermind, only a- how did you put it?? "complete and total moron" would want to dig up a grave site. But what about a sacred site? What about a charred fire pit? Or an ancient trash pile? Or lets move to something more modern- what about along a 17th or 18th century portage trail in the American heartland?

Diggem is right. There are way too many protected acres in our state. Its senseless to ban it all. Ban known sites or potential sites with significance. I think most MDers would agree to that at the least. But to ban all waterfront areas and DNR controlled lands is ludicrous.
-Eric

 

[olepossum]

ok here it goes i dont puncuate when i get going and here we go

so archies are so much better the mders huh well holy crap we use small trowls ice picks and small shovels and golf course hole cutter good lord they use back hoes and gas powered post hole diggers ron pastorie as one example i offered my help to a local archie group when we finally found the yankee fort here in my town i was told mders are historical rapists we have no idea what we are doing well i only forgot to tell him as a unschooled archie i have been on a few archiaeological digs and i know how to rope dig and stair step a a grid looking for history i even went on a few diggs in isreal with a well known archie while i was in college so i know my way around a pit well they messed up and didnt get to there sacred yankee fort is now owned by the city i live in and i have a city parks permit for mding and a signed letter from the city parks and rec enginierthat says i can md and remove what i find unless it is a significant historical find so i am gonna start going up there and md in a 10x10 rope grid and dig every signal and fill all my holes in just like the mders code of ethics say and then i will properly and safely clean and preserve them and put them in display cases and display them at every gun and antique show with in a 100 mile radius and not share them with any museum becuse they all say johnnie fry was the first pony express rider and bi;;y richardson was never the first pony rider nor was he even a pony rider i have photographs that prove it all wrong so that is nail 1and 2 in their dumba$$ box so should archies get that kind of authorityto say yes and no over our hobbies and means of family and company support HELL NO

OLEPOSSUM