French in Florida prior to Menendez

[RELICDUDE07]

Yes the spanish did that also - i have found #5 cubas...But they all had to start with 1 somewhere. If i could find some info on a later fort in this area with the name Charle fort then i may change my mind.The map is 1718

 

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[Bum Luck]

Yes the spanish did that also - i have found #5 cubas...But they all had to start with 1 somewhere. If i could find some info on a later fort in this area with the name Charle fort then i may change my mind.The map is 1718

Well, I'm not going to take on changing your mind - I have to do way too much of that already, and the best person to do that is you.

Here's a hint: I just set up my 'software' to make that possible; saves an enormous amount of time, money, and aggravation.

 

[aloysiusinfla]

Cedar Key once had huge stands of Cedar trees.

 

[GOHO]

Signumops, Just looking over this thread... My wife is dutch and can maybe translate for you... I will show her the page you posted and see if she can... I know the Dutch written in your book is old, kinda like old Spanish. I have other books that I've had her translate for me and she did just fine.

 

[signumops]

Goho:
Thanks, but, Gaetan Algoet is doing the translation and we are already a third of the way done. I want to have the book out by Spring. Gaetan seems to be zipping through it, and I know it must be hard to read. Most of it is printed in Volk Script.

Meanwhile we are cross checking it with Lyon, Bennett, Melanich, B. Smith, Hawkins and so forth. The whole story(s) has become somewhat mythical.

What definitely is a fact through several sources, including this one I am working on: Spaniards were cruising Treasure Coast and beyond on slave raids probably before Ponce DeLeon got here. There could be some very old stuff to find in the Eastern Florida Coastal Zone.

 

[Bum Luck]

Goho:What definitely is a fact through several sources, including this one I am working on: Spaniards were cruising Treasure Coast and beyond on slave raids probably before Ponce DeLeon got here. There could be some very old stuff to find in the Eastern Florida Coastal Zone.

Can you give sources for that?

I'm interested in early Indian - Spanish interaction. That would explain a lot.

 

[signumops]

The book we are translating specifys an incident where 40 Indians were captured by the Spanish from the natives in the vicinity of Jacksonville. Also you can find similar footnotes in "The Enterprise of Florida" by Eugene Lyon. The Cantino map of 1502, excerpted below, shows Florida with placenames, including some in the Gulf. The Indians in Hispaniola were killed off by around 1500, so Spain needed more slave labor. I will give you some more later. Gotta run to a BBQ right now.

 

[ivan salis]

if the spanish took slaves from what is now known as the "jacksonville" area earlier on before the french put fort caroline in the st johns river in 1562* --that might explain why the indains there were freindly to the french when they arrived (since the french did not carry any off or attempt to "enslave" them but instead traded with them) plus once the indains found out that the french were foes of the spanish "enslavers"-- the indains figgered out that having the french around could prove useful against farther spanish "slave raids"

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I think some of the Mound builder Indians on the gulf coast were trading with ships from the (Sung) Dynasty (960-1276 I'm just a bit cazy also

 

[signumops]

Yep, the French allied with the Indians against the Spanish for sure and made good use of them when they made their first initial attack on the Spaniards in Florida. French went by ship and the Indians coordinated with them for the land attack.

When Ponce de Leon landed on the east coast of Florida, he was met with a hail of arrows and was forced to retreat. This was not the reception paid the French. The Indians recognized him as a Spaniard presumably and drove him away.

Hard to know if the slavers in the New World would record their comings and goings in Florida early on (first decade of the 1500's) as there was a royal edict forbidding the slavery of the native population, albeit a tongue in cheek arrangement.

 

[Bum Luck]

if the spanish took slaves from what is now known as the "jacksonville" area earlier on before the french put fort caroline in the st johns river in 1562* --that might explain why the indains there were freindly to the french when they arrived (since the french did not carry any off or attempt to "enslave" them but instead traded with them) plus once the indains found out that the french were foes of the spanish "enslavers"-- the indains figgered out that having the french around could prove useful against farther spanish "slave raids"

I agree, Ivan. Like I said, that explains a lot. I wonder how they could tell the difference between Spanish and French? Maybe by their behavior?

That's a well known Spanish reaction to indigenous peoples in America, so why wouldn't they do the same in Florida?

A little known chapter of history, but interesting one. Thanks, signumops.

 

[signumops]

Hey Bumluck:
I was trying to think of this particular book... read "The Early Spanish Main" by Carl Ortwin Sauer. Easy read, and very thorough. Great deal to do with the Spaniard and the native people.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I really don't think the fort they show in Jacksonville is the same fort from the original drawings from the french in 1564...The river that ran around the fort would have gotten wider over the years from erosion.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I also found a better pic . of some of the strange blonde indians like in the above French Florida pic!

 

[ivan salis]

there are those who think the viking's travelleed down the coastlines of america * when they went exploring from a known base area they had in newfoundland canada area in the 1000 ish era. -- if they during their explorations met and bred with local native indain tribes -- it would explain the reports ofblond and red headed natives that later european explorers met.

 

[signumops]

Yep, this is part of the modern day Inet BS cloud that has re-written history. That book may have been manufactured in 1591, but the fort was built 30 years or so earlier, and the illustrators made the drawings AFTER they returned to Europe.

Most of the French party available to build such a thing would not make it that substantial. Sand and logs would have done the job.

Below is a woodcut from the book Gaetan and I are translating. It is a much more reliable recount of the fort, and as you can see, it uses the tilted timber revetments as recreated by the NPS. And this won't cost you nine bucks either!

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Gallicum = Golfe = Gulf Your right about the construction- but notice the short wall behind the wood logs,most likely tabby....Early settlers found only trees and the raw materials for tabby (and none of the stones and brick-clay they had known in Europe) when they began building permanent structures in this coastal area . The Native Americans of the Sea Islands had left many heaps of shells, the accumulation of countless past oyster roasts. Builders extracted the lime by burning the oyster shells. They then painstakingly removed all salt from the shells and from the sand to keep the concrete firm and whole (the salt weakened the concrete mixture). The cleaned sand, a mixture of coarse and fine varieties extracted from sand pits, was added to the lime and shells to make the tabby concrete.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

My guess is most of the mix up came from them thinking the peedes river & st Miguel was in the Atlantic Around the time Of San Miguel de Galdape 1526 . It is what it is -don't think they will change the history books,but may help with the real treasure hunt!Oh the top map is (1529 Gulf of mexico)

 

[signumops]

Book is DONE and on sale now

Well, it took years, and a lot of miles, but it was worth it. This is a full color book, so it is not cheap, but, if you have any interest in treasure lost, you might find it interesting. Thanks to Buddy Martin for sharing his original manuscript, and to Gaetan Algoet for his translation work. While writing this, I found out a LOT. It's been a great publishing project, that's for sure! Hats off to Bob Baer and Doug Armstrong.

 

[Red_desert]

Congrats!