A pattern to Florida DHR Permit denials?

[Au_Dreamers]

So I've come across some information and have possibly seen a pattern to denials for search permits from the Florida DHR.

"had not applied for or received an archaeological research permit prior to conducting archaeological field investigations on State-owned lands. "

"2. On February 1, 2005, the Division received the Petitioner's letter dated January 28, 2005, which, among other things, discusses field investigations conducted by the Petitioners within the area requested in the application for an exploration contract.

3. On February 2, 2005, the Division responded to the Petitioner's January 28, 2005 letter which included advising Petitioner that archaeological field investigations on state-owned and state controlled lands are prohibited by Florida Statute s. 267.13(1)(a) without a permit from the Division."

On February 21, 2005, the Division mailed a Notice of Denial of Application (Notice of Denial) via US Mail, certified, to Petitioners explaining the reasons for denial as follows:

"had undertaken actions in violation of Rule 1A-31.0035, Florida Administrative Code, in that they began exploration in state-controlled lands without the benefit of a permit or agreement with the Division of Historical Resources of the Department of State."

So what exactly constitutes conducting archaeological field investigations?

This seems pretty ambiguous, as surely they do not mean that the “treasure hunter” is performing “board approved” standard archaeological field investigations.
But what could that entail? Just visiting the site?

Couldn’t one argue that most assuredly one from the private sector could not perform archaeological field investigations, as they are not a board certified and University educated archaeologist?

I wonder if there is a written definition of "archaeological field investigation" so as one could prevent themselves from unknowingly perform such?

 

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[Salvor6]

When Burt Webber was denied his application he had already magged the area he wanted. I talked to the archies at DHR. You can't even search for a shipwreck without a search permit.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

SO

Application;

I read a story in a magazine, saw on a TV show, heard from a drunken sailor a story about a shipwreck. I've never been to the location, have never done any research on the shipwreck nor location.

So can I have a search permit for this rectangle area?

Thank-you for your time and consideration of my application.

 

[comfortably numb]

What if you found it while spearfishing? You weren't technically searching for a wreck, you just happened upon it?

 

[Salvor6]

Au Dreamer the state will gladly give you a search permit. I know of one private individual that got one for the SW coast of Florida real easy. Just try getting a SALVAGE permit. Thats what all the FL treasure hunters are mad about.

 

[aquanut]

Mummmm

 

[FISHEYE]

You dont need a permit to troll for fish.You put 1 fish hook on your mag or SS and you are covered.

 

[ivan salis]

to even try to look for a shipwreck -- the state requires you to apply and pay for a "I want to look around in this area permit " * thus telling the state --"i think there might be something of great value here in this area" --once the "look about" permit is paid for then you can "look around" --now if you find something "interesting" then you must apply and pay for a "exploration permit"-- meaning I want to explore this possible wreck site area * to see if its worth going after -- note your not supposed to anything off the wrecksite while "exploring it " you can look but not take stuff basically =--- now that you looked , and found and explored and discovered its a possible valuible wreck site worth going after -- then you have to apply for a actual "salvage permit" --which legally allows you to go and get the stuff off the sea bed --under very strict rules and under state archeaological supervision * of course ( the state will issue both the "looking / searching " and "exploration" permits (at cost to the hunters) but then when its time to "seal the deal" --they quite simply will not issue salvage permits to allow the salvors to recover anything to sell to recover their "investments" (thus driving the salvors broke via spending and not getting any return on the invested funds - investors do not want to invest in something that can not make a profiet* thus once the investors figger out that investing in treasure hunting is basically a waste of time --the salvors are in effect put out of bussiness since no one will invest with them)--- and since all the information about the wrecks location and other data generated via the "look and explore" permits are required to be shared with the state as part of the permitting process -- the salvors are in effect doing "free research" for the state archies and then getting hosed when it time for them to get their end of the bargin -- its like a gal you take out on a date that orders the most expensive things on the menu and lets you pay thru the nose all night on high dollar stuff for her * blowing thru your cash like mad , whispering in your ear all night about how she liikes you and then at the end of the night will not "put out" --leaving you all hot , bothered and broke.----- we had a word for gals like that.

 

[Nugget Hog]

You forgot to add that the State will then label the area an "archaeologically sensitive area" or some other bureaucratic BS and would never issue any type of permit for that area.
I recall someone finding a ship around Charlotte Harbor and the State told them they couldn't touch it. So it is sitting there rotting away.

 

[FISHEYE]

Ivan,

Under a state exploration permit you are allowed to use a metal detector.mag,side scan,sub bottom profiler and you can also blow holes and recover artifacts.The artifacts have to be conserved and turned into the state,they say after you get your salvage permit then the state will return the artifacts after a division with the state.The state does not want you to leave any artifacts on the bottom if you find them.The only exceptions are iron cannon,anchors and wood.

 

[ivan salis]

if you turn over the finds found during a exploration permit * to the state and then they do not "APPROVE" THE SALVAGE PERMIT --THEN GUESS WHAT THE STATE KEEPS THE "FINDS" *

the point I getting at is there is no way to "know" if your going to be able to get a "salvage" permit ahead of time --if you do get the " look for a wreck permit" search permit --then once you find something of interest you gotta get another differant "exploration permit" to check it out better --then a third permit to actually salvage stuff for sale -- ( in some cases folks have been issued the first two "permits" only to have the door slammed on them when it was time to get the all important salvage permit )-- and that my freind in my book --is dirty pool -- it is the state archies knowingly dealing in "bad faith" -- knowing all along that they were going to deny the salvage permit -- but stringing along the salvors to get more permit fees and "free research" out of em . --

there is indeed a "pattern" to this and someone with deep pockets needs to "apply " get the first 2 permits and get denied the 3rd one and then sue the crap out of em , for "restraint of bussiness" because the state is supposed to issue permits under the mel fisher court agreement * not set up a phoney 3 step process where they just fiscally "milk" salvors via letting them be issued and paying for #1 search and #2 exploration permits (and all the cost of doing it ) and then pull the rug out from under em by denying the critical #3 "salvage" permit to recoup their invested money & make a profeit .

 

[humble]

It has happened to me. It cost me over a year of delay by the State, and $11,000,to learn that lesson. humble

 

[ivan salis]

humble there is a "pattern" to this its not a one time -only you type of thing.

this is a systematic plan to put "treasure hunters" out of bussiness to stop all new salvage permits from happening

its a simple scheme --

set up a 3 step permit process * --

# 1 have a "search" type permit to even attempt to look for wrecks (you must apply and pay for this permit before you can even "legally" look for a wreck ) --thus you must pay the state permit fees and do "paperwork" to even attempt to find a wreck

only after paying for #1 can you look for a wreck site * then say you actually find a possible valuible wreck to "inspect" it better and really check it out to see if it really "worth while" --they you got to go get the #2 or exploration permit ---more money invested in permit fees to the state and more "paperwork" - an archie will normally be "required" to be hired at the salvors expense to supervise the salvors and what they are doing at this time and to "inspect any artifacts exposed / recovered and see that they are accounted for and turned over to the state " * note only if the salvage permit is issued will the salvors get any of the items "found" during the exploration period . otherwize the state keeps all of it.

now after all the money , time effort and research is done , and everything is ready to go -- there is step #3 the all important actual "salvage permit" which for various "reasons" will not be issued --there will be some snag or problem why it can not / will not be issued --count on it.

 

[tom yerian]

AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS; " TAKE IT ANYWAY "!! The gov. under OBAMAJERK does not have the money to what you are doing. How many WATER COPS do you see now a days? Very few, if any, in many areas.
Guy's, there is more treasure un-found, than that has ever been found in Florida waters, and off shore. Use your imaginations, send what cops that are in your area on wild goose chases; not hard to do, and easy to get away with! There is all kinds of subtrafuge you can use to mislead, mis-direct; you get the point?
I know there are many of you that are pirating on the sly, GREAT JOB; I APPLAUD YOU!!! We live under a crooked gov., so, there is no need to follow their crooked,un-American, illegal laws. They don't follow them, so why should we. It's a tradition for real Americans to defy the gov, and tell them to take a flying fu-- at a rolling donut!!! So be cool, clever, secreat, and enjoy the thrilling experience of defying the gov.and make a profit at what you love doing....Capt. Tom

 

[Bum Luck]

Obama's got nothing to do with it.

It's Florida that needs to fix this problem. Like the Governor.