16th-century (Portuguese?) gun found in Australia

[Alexandre]

Gun has history in sights

by: Xavier La Canna From: The Courier-Mail January 11, 2012 12:00AM

A DARWIN boy may help re-write Australia's history after unearthing what he believes is a 500-year-old Portuguese gun on a Northern Territory beach.

Christopher Doukas made the discovery at Dundee Beach, about two hours' drive from Darwin, when tides dipped to exceptional lows in January 2010 and he could walk out a long way from shore.

Now 13, Christopher saw the swivel gun barrel poking out of mud, dug it out with his father and took it back home.

"As soon as we got it back into Darwin, my dad got an angle grinder and nicked a little bit of it. We saw it was bronze, so we knew it was old," Christopher said.

Internet research showed the item, about the size of a rifle, bore a striking resemblance to Portuguese swivel guns, used as anti-personnel weapons on ships in the 16th century.

Last July, Christopher's mother Barbara alerted staff at the Darwin Museum to the find and sent in photos that she was told seemed to indicate it was the genuine article.

But it has been only in recent weeks, after speaking to her local MP, that she was asked to bring it in for further examination.

Christopher said a similar item had sold in Britain for pound8000 (about $12,000), and he would be interested in selling the gun to a museum.

Portugal occupied Timor from 1515 until 1975 but it is hotly debated whether Portuguese explorers made it to Australia, just 700km away.

Early maps from France in the 1500s appear to show part of northern Australia, which some have cited as evidence Portuguese explorers arrived during that period, although that claim is controversial.

Top End historian Peter Forrest was sceptical Portuguese explorers reached northern Australia in the 1500s but if the find was genuinely from that period it would be grist for the mill for people who believed the theory, he said.

It still had to be demonstrated that the location of the find had a connection with Portuguese contact and the item hadn't washed up or been left by antique dealers in the 1800s.

Mr Forrest said there was no independent evidence of Portuguese contact and quite a lot of evidence that there was no contact. "I think it is jumping to a very premature conclusion to link that object with a Portuguese presence in the Top End," he said.

The earliest authenticated European contact with Australia was in 1606 by Dutch vessel Duyfken.




Here:


http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/g...-1226241146851


and here:

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/201...51_ntnews.html


Photo gallery, here:


http://tools.ntnews.com.au/photo-gal...=5301&offset=0

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gun has history in sights

by: Xavier La Canna From: The Courier-Mail January 11, 2012 12:00AM

A DARWIN boy may help re-write Australia's history after unearthing what he believes is a 500-year-old Portuguese gun on a Northern Territory beach.

Christopher Doukas made the discovery at Dundee Beach, about two hours' drive from Darwin, when tides dipped to exceptional lows in January 2010 and he could walk out a long way from shore.

Now 13, Christopher saw the swivel gun barrel poking out of mud, dug it out with his father and took it back home.

"As soon as we got it back into Darwin, my dad got an angle grinder and nicked a little bit of it. We saw it was bronze, so we knew it was old," Christopher said.

Internet research showed the item, about the size of a rifle, bore a striking resemblance to Portuguese swivel guns, used as anti-personnel weapons on ships in the 16th century.

Last July, Christopher's mother Barbara alerted staff at the Darwin Museum to the find and sent in photos that she was told seemed to indicate it was the genuine article.

But it has been only in recent weeks, after speaking to her local MP, that she was asked to bring it in for further examination.

Christopher said a similar item had sold in Britain for pound8000 (about $12,000), and he would be interested in selling the gun to a museum.

Portugal occupied Timor from 1515 until 1975 but it is hotly debated whether Portuguese explorers made it to Australia, just 700km away.

Early maps from France in the 1500s appear to show part of northern Australia, which some have cited as evidence Portuguese explorers arrived during that period, although that claim is controversial.

Top End historian Peter Forrest was sceptical Portuguese explorers reached northern Australia in the 1500s but if the find was genuinely from that period it would be grist for the mill for people who believed the theory, he said.

It still had to be demonstrated that the location of the find had a connection with Portuguese contact and the item hadn't washed up or been left by antique dealers in the 1800s.

Mr Forrest said there was no independent evidence of Portuguese contact and quite a lot of evidence that there was no contact. "I think it is jumping to a very premature conclusion to link that object with a Portuguese presence in the Top End," he said.

The earliest authenticated European contact with Australia was in 1606 by Dutch vessel Duyfken.




Here:


http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/g...-1226241146851


and here:

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/201...51_ntnews.html


Photo gallery, here:


http://tools.ntnews.com.au/photo-gal...=5301&offset=0

Washed up Alexandre did you know James Cook had a Portuguese sailor on the Endeavor, They couldn't read
Portuguese
The demarcation line of Western Australia is exactly the line mark by the pope when he divide the new world between Spain and Portugal
The Portuguese kept the North and east coast a secret. Spanish Territory
Ossy

[Alexandre]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

Learning the Aussie lingo
Does it look Iberian, Possible gun from Torres expedition .
Ossy

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Have a look a the breach loading gun.http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/spanishcannons.htm
Ossy

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

You could be right:
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/0047...ka_cannon.html

[Alexandre]

Have a look a the breach loading gun.http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/spanishcannons.htm
Ossy

Looks like a fake to me (and I have seen my quota of breech loaders..)

[Alexandre]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

You could be right:
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/0047...ka_cannon.html

Let's hope I am not. Anyhow, there's already a flurry of emails back and forth Portugal and Ozzie land...

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Have a look a the breach loading gun.http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/spanishcannons.htm
Ossy

Looks like a fake to me (and I have seen my quota of breech loaders..)

Thanks Alexandre.
Ossy

[aquanut]

Alexandre,
I believe you when you say you've seen your quota of breech loaders, however, I'm,surprised you would bring up the Fake card by simply reviewing a photo. although I disagree with you on almost everything, I had more respect for you than this...The fact that this barrel was found in a remote area of Australia by a couple of regular people tells me that it is a genuine find.Whether it was on it's original mission or wound up there at a later date because it was picked up by others in a different location and time remains to be seen. There are way to many variables and possibilities to simply dismiss this find and many others because they don't fit into the known patterns or baseline history/archeology. We should always be ready to modify our findings/opinions when something new appears that looks like it shouldn't fit into our comfortable puzzle.
Aquanut

[Alexandre]

Alexandre,
I believe you when you say you've seen your quota of breech loaders, however, I'm,surprised you would bring up the Fake card by simply reviewing a photo. although I disagree with you on almost everything, I had more respect for you than this...The fact that this barrel was found in a remote area of Australia by a couple of regular people tells me that it is a genuine find.Whether it was on it's original mission or wound up there at a later date because it was picked up by others in a different location and time remains to be seen. There are way to many variables and possibilities to simply dismiss this find and many others because they don't fit into the known patterns or baseline history/archeology. We should always be ready to modify our findings/opinions when something new appears that looks like it shouldn't fit into our comfortable puzzle.
Aquanut

Aquanut, I was replying to Ossy's post:

Quote from: MORE AND BEYOND OSSY on Jan 11, 2012, 05:05:02 PM
Have a look a the breach loading gun.http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/spanishcannons.htm
Ossy


Looks like a fake to me (and I have seen my quota of breech loaders..)

That gun, on that website:

http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/spanishcannons.htm

- is the one I think it is a fake.

[aquanut]

Sorry A.
From the looks of it, I have to agree. I thought you were referring to the pic posted on the topic. The one on Ossy's referral site looks like a repro. Disregard my comment towards you.
A.

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

You could be right:
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/0047...ka_cannon.html

Let's hope I am not. Anyhow, there's already a flurry of emails back and forth Portugal and Ozzie land...

Any News Alexandre
Ossy

[Alexandre]

Dunno, Ossy. Could well be a lantaka... or a gun from a Makassan Trepang ship...

You could be right:
http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/0047...ka_cannon.html

Let's hope I am not. Anyhow, there's already a flurry of emails back and forth Portugal and Ozzie land...

Any News Alexandre
Ossy

Not yet.

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226248772480
Alexandre, Aussie built Portuguese Caravel
Ossy

[cornelis 816]

The gun found was nothing more than a modern heavy guage shot gun in that time . It was an anty personel boarding gun . Removed from a ship it could be used for any raiding party on a foreign shore . I think that if it was Portugese , some party from Timor ( be it Portugese or Timorese ) would have raided the Australian mainland . Got in trouble with the natives and were killed leaving the ( good size ) canoe and the gun . No great enigma here . Keep it simple you guys . Cornelius

[Alexandre]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226248772480
Alexandre, Aussie built Portuguese Caravel
Ossy

It looks more like the real thing than the one that was built in Portugal...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1zQt6Y7V8F...0/HPIM3884.JPG

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Any News Alexandre ?
Ossy

[Alexandre]

Any News Alexandre ?
Ossy

I received a several good shots of it bt snail mail. And I am still sticking with my first tought, that it is a lantaka kind of gun.

We are still looking at all options, tough.

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Any News Alexandre ?
Ossy

I received a several good shots of it bt snail mail. And I am still sticking with my first tought, that it is a lantaka kind of gun.

We are still looking at all options, tough.

Thanks, keep me in the loop
Ossy