Scuttled Nazi treasure submarine

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

1) Are you sure that it is German submarine from WW II and not, for example, US sub?
*************
Yes, since after the storm, a junior officer and two Germen seamen were found on the beach drowned with an overturned rubber raft. The officer was carrying some very interesting documents in a waterproof pouch.
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2) How do you know that? Does it have any emblem or number on the conning tower?
************
Only anecdotal and deductions so far. A Submarine is supposedly located there, and since part of a submarinecrew that were drowned were German ---?
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3) Did you dive there?
************
No, I have not, most of my capabilities have been tied up in the Search for Tayopa.
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4) Have you seen this submarine under the water in person?
************
No, I have not, see above.
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5) Do you have some underwater photos of it?
************
No, I have been playing a low key since I did not wish to attract attention to it until/if I decided to do anything about it..
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6) In which state is the submarine? Is it in one piece or in several pieces?

Sonora, Mexico. Intact.
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7) Does it lie on the flat sea bottom or is she on slope or inside the coral formation?
************

On a sandy bottom, supposedly 1/2 buried with a list. The periscope is almost exposed when an unusually low tide occurs.
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8) How is conning tower?
***********
?? I have no idea, but if my speculations/deductions are correct, the main hatch is open.
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9) How about hatches? Are they open or closed?

See Above. but there is NO war damage. It was not sunk by military action nor is there evidence that it was scuttled so---I have my theory, possibly backed up by the documents found on the officer.
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10) How about legal permits in Mexico? I know nothing about it.

They can be gotten, but the sub and military ordnance belongs to the Mexican government. Values which should be aboard? that depends upon any agreements that Mexico may have with the internatonal groups.
since it s well within Mexican waters ?
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11) How far is the location is the shore?

Within sight, not very far, and as the gulf waters in general are calm, weather should be of no serious concern, just do not plan on anything during the hurricane season.
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12) What do you think, it was scuttled or sunk?

Unintentionally sunk, prob most of the crew are still inside with most of the compartments still dry. unless corrosion has breached them.


Tropical Tramp

 

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[Bobadilla]

Hello Tropical Tramp,

Just briefly, I have not internet at home yet. THANKS for all your answers. I would have some ideas about this sub. It sounds really very interesting. I will post it here for you by tomorrow afternoon beacuse I have to go through my "submarine" books tonight and check some details which I am not sure of.

Regards
Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Tropical Tramp,

I checked my books and archive and it seems that it could be possibly one of the German subs sent to secret mission together with Japanese Navy Intelligence. I can not find a clue which submarine it could be, there were 55 of them missing "somewhere" after the WW II. Documents you mentioned in your post which had been found with drawn German sailors could confirm this story. Some of German submarines went through the pacific coast with money for their agents in the USA because approach from Atlantic site became to be too dangerous by the end of the war.

Do you plan to do something with possible salvage of this interesting sub in the close future?

Lobo

 

[Cablava]

Of the 53 U Boats missing none were reported as being in the Pacific, this does not mean that one was not there. About 50% of the missing boasts were reported fairly accurately as to the region. Of course someone could be lying in the reporting. A boat missing on a weather reporting trip could easily have been sent elsewhere on a one way trip.

As there were bodies washed up then there must be a record of the date, if there were names of the survivors in the documents found then the boat could probably be traced through the German archives.

More info is needed

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Gentlemen: It would be in the war years naturally. Yes there is documentation, which by a diligent search could be turned up because of international complications. It seem that the Officer was attempting to meet a representative of an espionage/intelligence group operating in the southern US. I presume that the sub was carrying the where-with-all for continued operations and instructions, etc.

The document was somehow found by the British consul rep. in Hermosillo, he managed to get copies which he made public, Records should be readily available, I presume.

The sub just quietly disappeared as far as official documents are concerned. it was assumed that it ended up in South America, however, by coincidence, this submarine is lying underwater only a few kilometers, at most, from the location where the crewmembers were found, co-incidence?

Since it was not sunk by military action , and no other crew members ever turned up, this tends to omit the basic possibility of scuttling.

Incidentally, Mexico had a prisoner of war camp located near Manzanillo, my contact on the submarine had a brother who was an Officer stationed there.

How it managed to work it's way up the sea of Cortez is interesting, since the US had B-24 training stations located there specifically for submarine detection. One can only presume that since no logical submarine activity should be expected in the region, things were too relaxed.

If sincerely interested, I will contact my friend for further information / confirmation.

p.s. I cannot find any references of any survivors Cablava.
Tropical Tramp

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Tropical Tramp,

Thanks for your further explanation. Yes, Cablava is right, of course - if you have names of the drawn sailors, it is a question of literally couple of hours or even less to find out on which particular German war sub they served. There are even pages on internet where you can find all the missing German submarine sailors from the WW II.

Yes, I can confirm you my serious interest in this matter and I would highly appreciate any further information on this specific matter. What you wrote in your post just confirms my theory that this particular sub was on secret mission, probably for their secret agents.
Thanks in advance.

Regards
Lobo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, missed a point on post #26 The prisoner of war camp at Manzanillo housed German sailors, sorry.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Cablava]

Here's something but the subs were jap, and the year 1943. This was a reputed battle to sink two Jap subs, however the report was taken with a pinch of salt later. Could this have been one of these subs, and to make it more intriguing what were the German sailer's doing on board.

 

[Cablava]

Sorry 1943

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, fascinating Cablava. There is much of the history of WW -1 & 2 that is still unknown, and much that will never be known.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Peg Leg]

When I was just a kid I lived at Daytona Beach at 222 South GrandView street which is only a short walk to the beach.
Early one Saturday morning my older brother and myself were near the Boardwalk. It was just after sun up. As we were looking out into the Atlantic we saw some airplanes diving and dropping bombs. We saw the explosions and the water from these explosions throwing water very high into the air. This went on for what seemed about 30 minutes.
Then everthing settled down and the planes left.
I heard some people talking about a German Submarine that was being attacked.
I was not that far away because we could hear the explosions.
It was never reported anywhere because when we got home we told our mother about it and she listened to the radio and read the newspaper the next day and not a word was said.
I really believe that I witnessed a German Submarine being sunk just off Daytone Beach.
It was as I recall almost due east of the Pier.
Peg Leg

 

[Bobadilla]

Here's something but the subs were jap, and the year 1943. This was a reputed battle to sink two Jap subs, however the report was taken with a pinch of salt later. Could this have been one of these subs, and to make it more intriguing what were the German sailer's doing on board.

Hi,

It was my original thought that the sub of Tropical Tramp was Japanese one. It is known that from 1943 German advisors went to Japan and there are historically confirmed trips of German officers on board of Japanese subs and viceversa Japanese officers on board of German ones. It would interest me greatly to know if the sub is 100% German or Japanese. Japanese subs had always their numbers painted on conning towers, German ones from the Second World War generally not. May be it could be a hint. Just thought.

Lobo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HINT?? "I don need no stinkin hint", hehehehehh of course . If you are actually interested, I will contact my friend, he lives in another town some 90 miles away.

We met while I was doing some aerial fumigation work ($$), he and his father, brother, were involved. We all were pilots, this is what bred the confidence.

His father is now deceased. His mother was the sister of the Mexcan Naval Officer that was stationed at the prisoner of war camp in Manzanillo.

I dimly seem to remember that he mentioned that a number was once seen? this is at the same time as it was semi-established that it was sitting half submerged in sand.

Tropical Tramp

 

[JT]

Pegleg, my Dad was in the Navy during WW2. He never talked much about the war, but before he died, someone doing research for a book on WW2 contacted him for info, because as I later found out, he was on a Destroyer that recorded at least one confirmed sinking of a German sub right off of the coast of Florida.

The ship he was on spent a great deal of time between Key West and Jacksonville, so the sub you're talking about may very well be the same one.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

JT ]
Pegleg, my Dad was in the Navy during WW2. He never talked much about the war, but before he died, someone doing research for a book on WW2 contacted him for info, because as I later found out, he was on a Destroyer that recorded at least one confirmed sinking of a German sub right off of the coast of Florida.

The ship he was on spent a great deal of time between Key West and Jacksonville, so the sub you're talking about may very well be the same one.
******
Fascinating Jt, any more details?

Tropical Tramp

 

[JT]

No, not a lot of detail. He really didn't talk much about the War. He shocked me on his deathbed when he started speaking what sounded like fluent Japanese, and this was a man that told me that he'd kick my butt if I bought a used Toyota from a friend of mine.

I found out later from my older sister that at the end of the war, he wound up on a detail trying to get Japanese soldiers still holed up in caves and tunnels to give up. I'm guessing that's where he learned Japanese. He had an intense dislike for anything Japanese or German.

He was an intensely private person, and I remember when the researcher contacted him, it took a lot of letters and phone calls before Dad agreed to meet with him. He really didn't want to discuss it, because he said his crew was sworn to secrecy by his Captain for that incident plus others.

I wish I knew more of the details...all he told me was that they were patrolling between Jacksonville and Key West, and had left Jacksonville when they encountered the sub, and that it was a pretty intense search and destroy mission.. Maybe the sub Pegleg mentioned is a different one, but I don't know how many German subs were lost off of Florida.

I do know that he met the researcher away from home, told him some pretty detailed info, then regretted breaking whatever code of silence he'd taken. Interestingly enough, during the maneuvers to sink the sub, something on the ship fell, and one of his fingers was smashed, splitting his fingernail. That nail stayed split the rest of his life, and he always called it his "reminder" of what happened.

 

[Cablava]

Hey Tropical Tramp

You could have a look at the site on Google Earth, 80ft clear water sandy bottom you may see her outline.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Thanks Cablava. I will do so, but I have to reinstall my Google again tonight. My computer crashed yesterday and I am just finishing setting it up again.


I loved it Jt, a shame we couldn't have had him pass on some of his stories.


I had somewhat the same situation in that my Grandfather from Maine was on one of the last sailing ships to go around the Horn to the Pacific. He said it took months, they would reach the Pacific only to be blown back to the Atlantic. He didn't have dry clothes for weeks at a time and the food was beyond description from insect life and mould.

He also had many a civil war story which he wanted to tell to someone, but being a typical teenager, I wasn't interested in Gramp's old war stories, just gals -stilll am interested in gals, but now life's experiences from others also.

Now the shoe is on the other proverbial foot, however my grand kiddies are now interested and have been making up a book of some of mine and my life as an explorer after the war.

Incidentally, I was just 17 when I entered into the Guadalcanal campaign Aug.11, 1942, sigh how time flies.

Tropical Tramp

 

[mad4wrecks]

Sorry if any of this information is redundant to you guys and for the "shotgun" approach, but there was recently an interesting thread on the SubArch listserv about WWII wrecks, including submarines, so I am posting some of the more relevants threads to this topic:


The NOAA Marine Sactuary people (try Kelly Gleason) also
documented a Japanese mini-submarine in Hawaii:
http://hawaiireef.noaa.gov/maritime/welcome.html

Finally, you should speak with Hans Van Tilburg, who has been instrumental
in documenting a number of WWII-era ship and aircraft wrecks in the
Northwestern Hawaiian Islands (Kure Atoll, Midway, etc.). He is the Pacific
Islands Region Maritime Heritage Program Coordinator for NOAA's Maritime
Heritage Program and can be reached via e-mail at [email protected].


You might want to contact the US "National Maritime Historical
Society" in Peekskill, NY which at one of its meetings was related a
captured submarine from WWII


Barbara
Voulgaris, another member of the Underwater Archaeology Branch, was largely
responsible for drafting the Sunken Military Craft Act, and is pretty much
the "Go-To" person for questions regarding the Act and its implications.
Her e-mail address is [email protected].

Contact Dave Ball at the Minerals Management Service
in New Orleans regarding the investigation of U-166, which sank in
the Gulf of Mexico.

Dave Ball
Minerals Management Service
1201 Elmwood Park Blvd., MS-5411
New Orleans, LA 701-23-2394
(504) 736-2859; [email protected]


Information on the U-166 Project (2003) is available here:

http://www.pastfoundation.org/U166/

A much larger interdisciplinary study, looking at several
ships sunk in the Gulf of Mexico during WWII (including
U-166 again) is here:

http://www.pastfoundation.org/DeepWrecks/


Regards, Tom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA Bobadilla: My friend still hasn't answered me yet. He is often traveling, patience. I may go to see him if he doesn't answer soon.

Tropical Tramp