Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?
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  1. #1
    us
    Oct 2010
    302
    106 times

    Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Anyone done any research into this one? Marx, in the Florida listings of "Shipwrecks in the Americas", says simply: " a caravel that was part of the expedition of Don Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon, which sailed from Spain in 1524, was lost near Cape St. Helen and natives massacred all of its two hundred survivors".
    Lee Spence (and most early authorities) state that the wreck occured at the mouth of the "River Jordan".
    Here is where the fun begins. English explorer William Hilton identified the Jordan in 1662 as being the Combahee river in present day South Carolina. Others believe the Jordan was actually the Cape Fear River in North Carolina. Spence, in "Shipwrecks, Pirates and Privateers", argues that the Jordan is the confluence of the Ashley and Cooper rivers that form what is now Charleston Harbor. The University of South Carolina's Maritime Research Division became convinced that the Jordan is the present Santee River. Their rationale, (somewhat unconvincing to me), is explained in the Dec. 2006 issue of Legacy under the title " A Survey for Lucas Vazquez de Ayllon's Lost Capitana". They magged a good portion of the entrance to Winyah Bay after the storm season of 2005-2006 but found no trace of the ship in question. Anyone heard any "tales" of early Spanish shipwreck artifacts on the Beaches of North or South Carolina? If this topic has been discussed in this forum in the past, I apologize. Just looking for a little input from the experts out there...

  2. #2
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    883
    203 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit
    Anyone done any research into this one? Marx, in the Florida listings of "Shipwrecks in the Americas", says simply: " a caravel that was part of the expedition of Don Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon, which sailed from Spain in 1524, was lost near Cape St. Helen and natives massacred all of its two hundred survivors".
    Lee Spence (and most early authorities) state that the wreck occured at the mouth of the "River Jordan".

    If I were on your shoes, I would question everything and all "authorities".

    What's the original Spanish source for this caravel loss report? What was really reported?

    Try these documents (mainly the first one, which is a 12 page account of Ayllón's Florida expedition):

    1) AGI, Pt,172,R.25, Información hecha en la Audiencia de Santo Domingo, a petición de su oidor Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón, sobre una expedición que hubo que hacer a Tierra Nuevala (Florida). Santo Domingo, 5 de marzo de 1526

    2) AGI,Ind.,421,L.11,F.185R, Respuesta del Rey al licenciado [Lucas Vázquez de] Ayllón, oidor de la Audiencia de la Española: sobre el viaje, que va a hacer a la tierra nueva y lo que allí ha de hacer tocante a la conversión y tratos de los indios; sobre el salario de oidor mientras esté en el dicho descubrimiento y población.

    3) AGI, ES.41091.23.1.3, Justicia,3, El licenciado Juan Ortiz de Matienzo, oidor de esta Audiencia, con el licenciado Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón, también oidor de la misma, sobre que este no pasase de la licencia que tenía para descubrir, pacificar y poblar una tierra nueva que estaba en 35 y 37 grados norte-sur con la isla de Santo Domingo, por pertenecer al expresado Matienzo como primer descubridor en una carabela propia. 1526


  3. #3
    us
    Oct 2010
    302
    106 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Thanks, Alexandre. You have prodded me into finally diving into the PARES system. I am more of a field guy than a researcher. I need to change that. Thanks.

  4. #4
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    883
    203 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit
    Thanks, Alexandre. You have prodded me into finally diving into the PARES system. I am more of a field guy than a researcher. I need to change that. Thanks.
    Field work without good, solid research is like expecting to win the lottery of results...

  5. #5
    do
    Sep 2006
    Dominican Republic
    443
    60 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Hi,
    Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon departed for his final voyage from Hispaniola (today's Dominican Republic) from the port of Puerto Plata on board of his flagship "Bretona".

    (Translation from the original document from “Historia General y Natural de las Indias” by Oviedo)

    “….In 1523 Lucas Vazquez de Ayllon came prepared to go as Captain-General and governor of his majesty over a certain province of Tierra Firme. He arrived to Santo Domingo and settled himself in a office waiting for some news from Royal Audiency. Once they announced him, he prepared the voyage to conquer new land on the opposite site of actual island of Cuba. But he delayed so much in preparations of this voyage that General Council of the Indies sent word to him to undertake the voyage immediately or other Captain will be appointed for his cargo. So he made haste for his departure and finally he set sail from the harbor of Puerto Plata in the middle of July of 1526 with a great ship, which became his flagship, and another merchant ship that they named “La Bretona”, other merchant named “La Catalina” and other one named “La Chorruca” and a brigantine and a patache and a lighter. Thus there were six ships and 500 men. They started to disembark in the mouth of the river Jordan, which is east of the province of Florida……”

    “La Bretona” was most probably lost in Winyah Bay is a coastal estuary that is the confluence of the Waccamaw River, the Pee Dee River, the Black River and the Sampit River in Georgetown County in eastern South Carolina. The historic port city of Georgetown is located on the bay, and the bay generally serves as the terminating point for the Grand Strand. The bay is evidence of a drowned coastline, created by a rise in sea level in recent geologic time. It was a prime site for fishing by Native Americans and an early area to develop in colonial times as a seaport and center of rice culture and timbering.

    I will try to find a map where is "Tierra de Ayllon".
    Hope it helps......

    Bobadilla

  6. #6
    us
    Oct 2010
    302
    106 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Thanks, Bobadilla. I am trying to slug my way through the original documents that Alexandre turned me on to. It is a little difficult since the only Romance Language I posses is a Southern drawl. I can't figure out an easy way to translate the files from the archive. I am just doing it bit by bit with Google translator. What bothers me is basically E.L. Spence's argument that the Jordan was clearly placed between Cape Romain and Cape St. Helen by early cartographers. It seems to me the Jordan could be Charleston Harbor or even St. Helena Sound. William Hilton's (and other's) firm identification of the Jordan as the Combahee river is intriguing...

  7. #7
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    883
    203 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit
    What bothers me is basically E.L. Spence's argument that the Jordan was clearly placed between Cape Romain and Cape St. Helen by early cartographers.

    First rule of archival research: use written material (books, papers, etc.) for note taking and to steer you into the right direction;

    Second rule or archival research: assume that every previous researcher(writer) was wrong and reached wrong conclusions.

    (if researching in the Iberian archives was easy, everybody would be doing it..

  8. #8
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    883
    203 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Come on... I'll start..

    "En la ciudad de Santo domingo desta ysla espanola a los cinco dias del mes de marzo ano del nascimjento de nuestro (...)"

    In this city of Santo Domingo of this Island of Hispaniola on the fifth day of March of the year of the birth of..."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #9
    us
    Oct 2010
    302
    106 times

    Re: Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon wreck...which river is the Jordan? Fla.? S.C.? N.C.?

    Paleography is a trip. This paleo-American will probably be dead before he finishes the first page. I feel like Champollion devoid of Demotic and Greek. Thanks for throwing me that bone, Alexandre. Just having that one phrase really helps.
    Is the Chaves-Rutter to be completly relied upon?

 

 

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