NC Permits

[ScubaDude]

Well I finally had my long awaited sit down with the Head of NC's Underwater Archaeology program yesterday. Interestingly their permitting position comes from the State Attorney General's Office.........."the majority of our permits are for projects designed to fulfill archaeological or historical research objectives. In general, the award of artifacts from a historic shipwreck, or other significant archaeological site, for commercial or private use would be contrary to the archaeological, historical, and educational goals of the permitting process. Before such a request could be considered, the application would need to contain conclusive evidence that any commercial or private use of artifacts recovered from a historic site would be in the best interest of the state."

That translates to: Yes, you can get a permit as long as the State gets 100% of the artifacts.

I'm frustrated, this has been a dream of mine for many years. To go out discover the history that is laying literally miles from my home and to hold it in my hands, and to bring it up and share it with others so we can all learn from it. I don't suppose the taxpayers would start funding my objectives would they? Hmmmmmm no.

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Would it help change their mind if you set up a non-profit company and agreed to keep your share of artifacts available for research and/or for public presentations (school children), and that only redundant items, particulalry coins, could be sold?

 

[rgecy]

Brad,

It can be frustrating getting started. You definitely will need to get in with a group who is well versed in handling these issues. The process has become very bureaucratic and you will have to conform to the standards they set. I think Tom has the right idea.

Darren has established a non-profit group that we were using for the Virginia Gold project. You may want to talk with him and see what you can work out.

I am just getting started on a project down in Key West and have to be incorporated in the state of Florida to file an admiralty. Peg Leg recently ran into this same scenario.

Give me a shout sometime. Darren and I were talking about forming a group for this exact reason. We wanted to get together sometime after the first of the year, maybe in Myrtle Beach, and talk about getting our projects off the ground.

Robert in SC

 

[ScubaDude]

Tom and Robert,
There are two or three groups now that are out locating stuff and doing non-profit work. As it was explained to me they all signed on to the no artifact agreement. One group in particular SIDCo http://www.computer-therapy.com/sidco/ appears to be getting a good deal of public support and is working on some pretty neat projects.

I personally don't see how NC or FLA for that matter can handle the volume of artifacts we're talking about. They don't have the facilities or the staff, and in NC's case the funding to accomplish much. NC has over 5000 documented shipwrecks, the variety of which is mind bogling. Its difficult to buy their argument that wrecks reach an equilibrium state after a point in time, and that the artifacts will be there for generations to come. A big bulk of our wrecks are like FLA's in that they are in high energy zones, that constant wave action, storms, and hurricanes do exact a toll. It should say something that the Corp of Engineers dumped sand around the Queen Anne's Revenge site in an attempt to protect it. http://www.cdnn.info/news/science/sc060224b.html

I'm open to suggestions, I don't think this is a dead issue. I know there is a win win solution out there. I'm not out to get rich treasure hunting, it would be nice, but lets be realistic - to do this type of work correctly costs a fortune. I'd just like to figure out how to do this type of work full time without going broke.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[mariner]

Brad,

I cannot remember whether you had located an actual wreck,or were thinking of looking for one. Can you remind me?

As for this comment:
Before such a request could be considered, the application would need to contain conclusive evidence that any commercial or private use of artifacts recovered from a historic site would be in the best interest of the state."

I do not think they are saying they would want all the artifacts, but, along the lines of Robert and Tom, it strikes me that the only way you would meet this objective would be set up a non-profit museum that would display all the artifacts. What is beneficial to the people of NC is good for the State of NC. The museum could then employ you as its director, and so let you work in this area full time. Just how you would fund such a venture without selling some of the artifacts is the question, and one that is not easy to answer unless the wreck has particular historic importance.

Finally, not to flog the issue, but is the potential wreck Spanish ? If so,then NC have no constitutional authority to issue a permit for its recovery in any case.

Hope you find a solution.

Mariner

 

[ScubaFinder]

I'd just like to figure out how to do this type of work full time without going broke.

Go back to school and become a state certified marine archaeologist. Kidding of course, but as of now that is the only way I can see getting to do what we love without a major expense or headache. After reading the quote from the state a few more times, it does appear to be rather open ended. What's best for the state can be many things. I would think recovering more artifacts than their tiny crew can recover would be good. A museum would be good, and why couldn't it be funded by the sale of redundant artifacts like coins? For that matter, as museum director why couldn't your salary be funded by coin sales as well?

I'm really leaning towards the idea that you simply cannot approach these agencies as a salvor or treasure hunter. I bet if you went in as a historically minded museum entrepenuer, who wanted to search for shipwreck artifacts to display at your future museum, you might find yourself recieved in a different light. With a good lawyer, you could build in a loophole where redundant artifacts could be sold to other museums or collectors to fund the museum (and hence your salary). I wish I knew more about it, and am learning a lot from my new found friend at U.T. The more I talk to him, the more I realize that he has to justify his actions to his peers. He can't walk in and say "hey, I just gave an exploration contract to a treasure hunter". On the other hand, he would jump at the chance to walk in and say "hey, I'm working on getting a museum set up to display shipwreck artifacts to our public...at no cost to the state.....and get this, we get first pick of the items we want to study...for nothing".

I really hope my bud fills the shoes of the narrow minded individual who currently calls the shots here in TX. Even if he doesn't, having a good friend/archaeology professor who is not afraid to tell you how he would react to certain scenarios, and how you could persuade him to your way of thinking is a treasure in itself. BTW Brad, I talked to him after we talked, and I asked him about the "state of equilibrium" theory and his reply was "what a crock". All metals...even gold, have a limited time under the sea, and he went on with stuff about the anaerobic environment under the sand slowing the process, but not stopping it. I stopped him when he went into the anoxic denitrifying bacteria that lived in the deepest layers of sand excreting chemicals that could further damage especially silver with some chemical reaction that I can't even pronounce, much less remember.

Good luck bud, I can only imagine how frustrated you are. I never even tried with the state of Texas, because our laws are concise and to the point. If it's underwater, and has been there for more than 50 years, we'll throw you in jail if you touch it. Simple enough for me, and the reason for my impending move out of my beloved home state. I feel your pain.

Jason

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Brad,
Jason is on the right track with the non-profit museum gig. You can't ignore the potential to make a huge profit because it will take a huge amount of money to fund your project, build the museum, pay salaries, taxes, etc. Wilmington needs museums badly. My area (Tampa Bay) has dozens of museums including the Florida Internation Museum that has rotating exhibits like "Treasures of the Czars", "King Tut's exhibit', the "Titanic show", and now "The Bodies" exhibit. FIM has over one mil. in attendance per year. At $14 per ticket, it's still a non-profit org. Wilmington would jump at the opportunity to have a shipwreck museum for attracting tourists, addinging to the tax base, increasing employment and publicity. Getting incorporated is the first step. Call me for more free tips.

 

[ScubaDude]

I'm anything but giving up! I know that where there is a will there is a way and that nothing is impossible.

I've had a grand plan to do all this for a while, including a museum. I just need to figure out a different way to build the mouse trap. Maybe it will be through a non-profit. I would love to have a working museum; one where people can see what comes in through the back door; have already read or heard some of the background info; follow stuff through the conservation process; enable internships to foster education; to be able to display raw history that tells a direct story that people can put their finger on so to speak.

I've already invested a small fortune in equipment, heck I've got about what the state has. Meanwhile I'm trying to further my knowledge, education, and skills. Not to mention my network of contacts.

Jason I can appreciate what you said about your friend from U.T. and these folks having to justify their actions to their peers, not to mention taxpayers. Everyone I've met thus far in the Underwater Archaeology Branch have been genuinely good people, they taken time out of their day to give me the time of day, answer my questions, show me facilities, artifacts, records, etc. Ultimately they've got to answer to someone.

I'll keep plugging away at it till a solution is found. Meantime I'll keep working on some other potential projects. I'm open to suggestions so if you've got one post it.

 

[Peg Leg]

Hi Brad,
People have questioned me "WHY SO MANY PROJECTS" and my answer is. To keep busy while trying to solve some major problems that I have over my Ghost Ship wreck site.
I have 2 LLC's but I am being told that an LLC MAYNOT be accepted be cause they are not Corporations and that members of a LLC cannot be sued by anyone including the State of Florida. They do not like this at all and the fact that an LLC is not taxed in the same way as Corporations are taxed. In fact a LLC is not taxed at all. The members.
I think have to pay taxes on the profits they make from being a member. It is up to the members how they file their taxes. An LLC does not come under the Laws of the S.E.C or the I.R.S.
It is a DIFFERENT BALL GAME ALL TOGETHER. I think this is the mainreason why the State of Floride does not accept LLC's-of course they will not say this out loud and will never put it in writing but they WILL NOT issue an LLC a permit for anything.
The idea of setting up a NON PROFIT CORP. is a great idea but where is the FUNDING going to come from to get started.
You may apply for Grants but this is a long and complicated process.
Later
Peg Leg