Trying to Verify History on 1715 Plate Fleet

[durham64]

Hello everyone,

I am new to Tnet and have been browsing all the forums for a few days now. I invariably ended up at the Shipwreck forum.

According to my research, Ubilla was the captain of a ship called The Hampton Court, which was a British ship that the Spanish had commandeered some time earlier and this was the ship that carried the Queen's Jewels (Isabella Farnese) for King Philip V. I have found this name, The Hampton Court, in various places, but I can't find it on any official lists under this name. Was the ship renamed by the Spanish, so that it shows up as a different name?

If anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks so much!

 

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[durham64]

Just trying to do some historical research for a thesis. I really would appreciate any information that anyone would be willing to share. I am ready to get back into md'ing soon and trying to get finished up with all this.

Thanks again.

 

[Bum Luck]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/276268-1715-fleet-what-do-we-know.html

 

[durham64]

Thanks Bum Luck! I will go check this out and I really appreciate you sharing this information with me. Have a great day!

 

[mad4wrecks]

There is also 1715 fleet information at Treasureworks on their shipwreck forum.

Tom

 

[durham64]

Thanks Tom. I will be sure and check that site out as well. I really appreciate your help, you guys are a fountain of knowledge.

Holley

 

[VOC]

This site is also worth a look:

http://www.1715fleetsociety.com

VOC

 

[ropesfish]

1241 returns on a search for "1715" going back 10 years in just the Shipwrecks forum...

 

[Au_Dreamers]

This was the Flagship-Capitana of Echeverz...

Originally the NUESTRA SEN0RA DEL CARMEN Y SAN ANTONIO was a British 3rd rate Ship of the Line named Hampton Court. She was ordered in April of 1677 and her 138ft long keel was laid later that year at Deptford shipyard.
The Hampton Court had a gundeck length of 149ft 6 inches and a breadth (beam) of 39ft 10 inches. Her massive hold was 17ft 2 inches deep drafting 18ft aft. Its massive burthen was 1,164 tons and she carried 70 cannon. In 1678 her broadside weight was 617 tons carrying 26 British Demi-Cannon on her lower gun deck, 26 British 12-pounders on her upper gun deck, 10 British sakers on her Quarterdeck, 4 British sakers on her Forecastle and 4 British 3-pounders on her Roundhouse.
John Shish the master shipbuilder had the Hampton Court completed and launched on July 10 1678 and Sir John Holmes captained her.

The Hampton Court as a British warship saw action in the battles of Beachy Head, Barfleur and La Hogue. In 1699 she was laid up in Portsmouth to have a rebuild that started in 1706. ** another sources dates a rebuild at Blackwall launched in 1701.** May 1 1707 present at the action off Brighthelmstone.

On May 1 1707 at the battle of Beachy Head part of the War of the Spanish Succession, 3 French ships, the Dauphine, Blackoal and Grifon grappled the HMS Hampton Court. The French crews boarded her killing her captain George Clements and took her for their prize.

In 1709 as Le Hampton Court was refitted as a 64-gun Third Rate ship of the line. On October 21 1711 re-took the Fourth Rate Ship of the Line Toulouse which had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle off Minorca. Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen.

 

[durham64]

Thanks VOC, ropesfish and Au_Dreamers. I appreciate the information and I will be sure to do further research here on the forum with the "1715" as the keyword.

You all have been a tremendous help!

Much gratitude to you all!

 

[durham64]

Couple of more questions, sorry...Does anyone know definitively if the Hampton Court or as it was eventually known, "Nuestra Senora Del Carmen" carried the Queen's Jewels? Has this ship been located and identified (such as by the timber used in the building of the ship) and have any of the Queen's Jewels been recovered, and verified as being "the Queen's Jewels" from historical documentation?

I have tried to decipher this from many historical and contemporary accounts, but am unsure based on what I am reading. I know that there have been many pieces of incredible gold chains, diamonds and such recovered, but nothing that definitively states that they were part of the Queen's Jewels.

Thanks again and I will continue to read on...

Holley

 

[Au_Dreamers]

That ship was not the ship that carried the "Queen's Jewels". Ubilla's Capitana Nuestra Senora Del Regla is where they were carried, according to my info...

None of the vessels have been positively identified. We have educated guesses on which are which, but when asked 5 people will give you 6 differing opinions...


"My info", indicates they were not found historically nor in modern times.

On a side note as mentioned in other threads you may come across reference to jewels/jewelry for the Queen or similar, but those are referencing other jewelry for the Queen not what is commonly considered the Queen's Jewels.

Think about if you wanted to be in the King or NEW Queen's favor, bringing her back some nice gifts might do the trick. There were a few people looking to gain favor by sending gifts to the NEW Queen, one such reference comes from Lima.

 

[PhipsFolly]

I have recovered some very large knee timbers which washed up on the beach from one particular 1715 Fleet wrecksite and it was definately oak as was mentioned that the Hampton Court's construction consisted of... the timbers also contained huge iron pins consistent with the period and additional 1715 Fleet goodies were also recovered with these timbers... I am still researching documentation to ascertain if any of the items recovered match up with the manifest to gain confirmation that this particular site is the Hampton Court... A very difficult task indeed!

The knee timbers are huge and extremely heavy... it took three people to lift each timber... Just to get one off of the beach took almost 40 minutes!! On an interesting note... One of the timbers had a beautiful 4 Reales wedged into it!!

 

[durham64]

Au_Dreamers, Thanks so much for clearing that up. I was always under the impression that the Hampton Court carried the Queen's Jewels. Very interesting. I will shift my research to the Nuestra Senora Del Regla for this portion of my studies. It makes perfect sense, that when people are referring to jewels for the Queen, they are referring to exactly what you said, jewels intended for the Queen, but not the Queen's Jewels. Whew...this has been driving me nuts for the longest time. I appreciate you sharing this with me, it makes so much more sense now!

PhipsFolly, How exciting this must have been, to find the knee timbers and verify they were oak! I am a research fanatic, but I know how incredibly tedious and frustrating it can be some times. Good luck in your search for confirmation in regard to the Hampton Court. If I can be of any help, please let me know. Not that I am an expert in the subject matter, but just at research in general. That is how I ended up with so many questions regarding the Hampton Court. My research has told me so many varying stories, that I wanted to hear first hand from someone like you with hands on experience. I can only imagine how heavy the knee timbers were, but oh those fabulous Reales!! I wish you the best of luck and thanks so much!

I really appreciate all the help and happy hunting and research to you both!

Holley

 

[PhipsFolly]

Holley,

I am not sure how quickly your thesis research needs to be completed, but if you would like a photo of the timbers for your research, I can try to get at my timbers (which are in storage) over the next few weeks and snap a few pics to email you. Much success in your endeavors as well...

Phips

 

[durham64]

Holley,

I am not sure how quickly your thesis research needs to be completed, but if you would like a photo of the timbers for your research, I can try to get at my timbers (which are in storage) over the next few weeks and snap a few pics to email you. Much success in your endeavors as well...

Phips

Hi Phips,

I still have a little while before it needs to be completed. I would absolutely love to include any photographs or materials that you are willing to share! That would be wonderful! I so appreciate you offering to do that, it would greatly enhance the material I have already collected. I definitely have some time, so just whenever you could get around to it would be just fine. Let me know when you have the opportunity to send them, so that I can get the information from you to correctly attribute the photographs. Sorry it took a while to get back with you. My life is kind of crazy right now (obviously since it is 4:11 am and I'm still on the computer), lol.

Thanks so very much!

Holley

 

[grossmusic]

This was the Flagship-Capitana of Echeverz...

...

In 1709 as Le Hampton Court was refitted as a 64-gun Third Rate ship of the line. On October 21 1711 re-took the Fourth Rate Ship of the Line Toulouse which had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle off Minorca. Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen.

I believe you're right that it was Echeverz's capitana (not Ubilla's).

Meanwhile, where did you get info about the 1709 refitting & the 1711 info (which is worded very confusingly - who "re-took" what?). I had read that Echeverz bought it from the French c.1711-1712 on behalf of the Spanish Navy. Please cite the 1709/1711 references.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

What they are saying is that as, Le Hampton Court, a french vessel (after being taken from the "British") that in 1711 it re-took ( meaning recaptured) a French vessel Toulouse that had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle.

So the Toulouse was French and lost to the British, the French then used their newly acquired Hampton Court (from the British) to then re-take the Toulouse from the British!!!!


I just re-read my old post and see some dates don't jive... I will have to look-up my references. It was pieced together through various articles and inquiries. It get's confusing because there was another Hampton Court built in 1709 at Rotherhithe and just all the changes of ownership. I may have just done some math wrong as I was writing something quickly...and possibly tired, as I am now.

In reference to where I wrote..." Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen." That probably should be a year later in 1712

During those "warring years" many ships were captured by a nation and then recaptured by the "original" nation or an ally and then sold or traded later to yet another nation. This is why the "Dutch" ships of the 1715 Fleet are also as confusing.

 

[grossmusic]

Thanks, Au_Dreamers,

It's fascinating filler info I never heard about H.C. before!

I did know about the other Hampton Court, & that does get confusing when talking about anything after 1709.

Most info on the 1687 H.C. stops at 1701, then picks up at 1707 when she's captured, then disappears again until Echeverz buys her. So any info that fills the years 1701-1712 is great. I'm also curious if Echeverz used her for a few of his "privateering" ventures from 1712-1715.

 

[grossmusic]

What they are saying is that as, Le Hampton Court, a french vessel (after being taken from the "British") that in 1711 it re-took ( meaning recaptured) a French vessel Toulouse that had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle.

So the Toulouse was French and lost to the British, the French then used their newly acuired Hampton Court (from the British) to then re-take the Toulouse from the British!!!!


I just re-read my old post and see some dates don't jive... I will have to look-up my references. It was pieced together through various articles and inquiries. It get's confusing because there was another Hampton Court built in 1709 at Rotherhithe and just all the changes of ownership. I may have just done some math wrong as I was writing something quickly...and possibly tired, as I am now.

In reference to where I wrote..." Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen." That probably should be a year later in 1712

During those "warring years" many ships were captured by a nation and then recaptured by the "original" nation or an ally and then sold or traded later to yet another nation. This is why the "Dutch" ships of the 1715 Fleet are also as confusing.

I'm pretty sure that the the 1711 reference to Toulouse is about the 1709-built Hampton Court - not the 1678 Shish ship:
Battles of the British Navy - Joseph Allen - Google Books

So far there seems to be no record of what happened to the original Hampton Court after its 1707 capture & its reappearance in the 1715 flota. But if anyone has info, I'm very interested.