French fleet of 1565

[Vox veritas]

Archaeologists mount search for lost French fleet of 1565 | members.jacksonville.com

The French buried cannons and treasures on land and were subsequently massacred, Very few being saved.

I found documents in the Archivo de Indias on buried treasure

 

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[Diver_Down]

I took a "Behind the Scenes" tour of the LAMP program last year, when I spoke with Chuck Meide (Director of LAMP) and Star (Person in charge of preserving artifacts). I had a long talk after the tour discussing the works of Douglas Armstrong and how Star might benefit from his latest work on preserving artifacts. Well, the conversation turned to other works that Douglas Armstrong has done, and his work regarding the French Castaways at Old Canaveral. Turns out, it was Douglas Armstrong's work that has led to this recent project.

 

[Red_desert]

French ships should be a good find I'd think......copper chests full of gold coins?

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends-florida/83526-chest-off-a1a.html

 

[signumops]

I finally got to read the complete article regarding the upcoming attempt to locate the Triniti along Canaveral National Seashore as published by the Jacksonville Times Union, to wit...

"The search will be done from a research vessel, guided by historical research by the expedition’s co-principal investigator, John de Bry of the Center for Historical Archaeology in Melbourne.

It’s expected to be wrapped up in August. If a wreck is discovered, its location will be kept secret to prevent looters. Divers will pull up just a few artifacts to be studied and documented. But any find will then be returned to its original location in the ocean, at least for now.

“They’ll be safe down there,” Meide said. “They’ve been down there for 450 years.”

The expedition is a partnership of the Lighthouse Museum, the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program, the National Park Service, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the state of Florida, the Institute of Maritime History and the Center for Historical Archaeology.

Meide said a state archaeological crew, on a separate expedition, will be looking for the fleet as well, about 20 miles south of his group.

The superintendent of Canaveral National Seashore, Myrna Palfrey, made the trip to St. Augustine for the announcement. She said her park is eager to be able to learn more about its place in early American history — and perhaps later will be able to show some of the artifacts to Canaveral’s visitors."

I find it interesting that I publish three books dealing with this subject in the last 3 years, particularly "A Hundred Giants", when a concern arises among the 'professionals' that the Triniti might be "looted" by divers. Note the blatant reminder of affiliations here: "partnership of the Lighthouse Museum, the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program, the National Park Service, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the state of Florida, the Institute of Maritime History and the Center for Historical Archaeology" This affiliated group's mouthpiece wants to remind everybody that they intend to find the wreck and keep it a secret. If this wasn't such a flagrant insult to tax payers, it would be laughable.

I suspect that their whole plan results from a challenge I posed in "West Of The Bull".

I think that Palfrey needs to consider that the Canaveral National Seashore is OUR park, not HER park.

It is only of coincidental interest that the location of the wreck is probably outside of the Park Service jurisdiction.

The timing of the announcement leads me to believe that this is nothing more than a rudimentary reaction by the government machine to turn aside other interested parties and protect the philosophical turf of the archaeological ideologues.

 

[Red_desert]

"It is only of coincidental interest that the location of the wreck is probably outside of the Park Service jurisdiction."

Of course, there could be no other reason for them to be concerned about it.

 

[SADS 669]

...

 

[Red_desert]

It seems more like an attempt to convince the Archie community, that they are doing something about it......activity without any real plans of operation, doesn't accomplish much of anything except to make them look good in the eyes of their people support base.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Cynics will probably scoff at this suggestion, but if the National Park Service and NOAA are involved in the expedition, a Freedom of Information Act request probably would force those agencies to "spill the beans".

There are going to be too many agencies and too many people involved to keep the outcome under wraps forever...

A filed FOIA request stonewalled and a subsequent revelation of a major find with the involvement of those agencies, and it would be awfully tough for certain people to keep their jobs...it might even land them in jail.

If these blokes don't have the funds to mount a proper expedition to locate and excavate and conserve all the artifacts discovered, they have no business mounting an expedition at all.

That they are planning on mounting an exploratory expedition, keeping the location of any finds secret and all on the tax payers dime shows a good deal of hubris. I suspect it is ultimately illegal...perhaps even for the State and Local agencies...

 

[Bum Luck]

It seems more like an attempt to convince the Archie community, that they are doing something about it......activity without any real plans of operation, doesn't accomplish much of anything except to make them look good in the eyes of their people support base.

If they were dogs, it would be called "marking territory".

 

[Red_desert]

If you watch news headlines, when an arkie from the UK or elsewhere finds a few ancient coins buried in a cave.....it's suddenly global news! You see a lot of good arkie finds made showing up in 2014 headlines, but they have access to places off-limits to the average person.

 

[Smithbrown]

Looks like nothing was found:
Lost French fleet of 1565 remains a mystery after divers spend weeks looking off Florida coast | StAugustine.com
Lost French fleet of 1565 remains a mystery after divers spend weeks looking off Florida coast | members.jacksonville.com

 

[signumops]

I watched the video and saw a diver using a hand-held mag. I hope they did not rely on that method to attempt any location of the Triniti. You can not find bronze with a mag... and according to Ribault's story, you would have to be very close to shore to find the wreck. The Triniti was a galleass: great beam, shallow draft.

 

[ivan salis]

galera type boats (wide bodied shallow draft rowible vessels in the event of no wind or bad wind or the need for "extra speed" ) typically wrecked in shallow waters == due to their smallish size and shallow draft , they often got in close to shore before busting up--

prime exsample --the dutch prize vessel "Olandesa" from the 1715 fleet --Echeverz fleet --=it came in close to shore and stuck fast --shearing off its upper deck --the cabins and upper deck came ashore like a giant surf board and were used as "shelter' during the salvage efforts.

 

[Jon Phillips]

I watched the video and saw a diver using a hand-held mag. I hope they did not rely on that method to attempt any location of the Triniti. You can not find bronze with a mag... and according to Ribault's story, you would have to be very close to shore to find the wreck. The Triniti was a galleass: great beam, shallow draft.

I was thinking the same thing...The cannons were listed as sacres (or saker), falcons, and culverins, which tended to be bronze (and on the small side, although I'm sure the ships had larger, bronze cannons as well)...The cannonballs could be anything from stone, bronze, and lead...or iron....I believe they had earlier cut their anchors at the mouth of the river of May when first confronted by the Spanish fleet...so not a whole lot of iron for a mag reading.

If they went out there thinking that a Renaissance era wreck would read like a colonial era one....with no actual research of these ships or history of the incident...and sending little probes into the bottom...and planning on keeping any discoveries secret, and not preserving and exhibiting any artifacts...... Then I want my tax money back, if any was used!!

They should have approached it like they would a survey on the ground....They would do shovel tests on a grid pattern....So go out there in a spot offshore where French artifacts have been found, and use a mailbox blower to "dig a test pit"....then move over to the next spot....

I don't see what anyone would gain from this...other than the grant recipients...I mean...If the results would be secret...and the artifacts returned...and no public knowledge would be gained...What's the point?? Just so a few people with the codeword, secret handshake, and decoder ring could know where they are, and what was found??

There should be a law about no public money can be used if the results aren't published in an easy to understand report, and the artifacts preserved, and available for display to the public.

It's pretty obvious that they don't really want to find them...Think about it...once they find a ship, and retrieve a couple of items to confirm it...then the job is over, and there is no need for any further searching and grant money....

Those type of articles always end with the fact that they are hoping for more grant money.

Remember the Scottish Chief scam?

That Confederate blockade runner in the Hillsborough river was well known, and has been explored, salvaged, and written about since the 1960's, but a few years back, some people from the Florida Aquarium were touting that they had "found" it, and although they admit that it was just some unrecognizable stuff stuck under the mud...they needed some grant money to study it, and reproduce it at the aquarium....How much does it cost to pour some mud into the shark tank?

State expeditions with no chance of a return should be banned. Kinda like private salvage companies with no chance of obtaining a salvage permit shouldn't seek investors....

 

[Smithbrown]

I think you are underestimating the use of iron in the ordnance. Offhand, all the 16th century Spanish wrecks found in American waters have had wrought-iron breechloaders and swivel guns. I suspect that the bronze guns may have been salvaged at the time, but it is still a big target.

A survey of English Navy in 1558 of 19 ships shows 312 bronze guns, 56 cast-iron and 949 wrought iron guns and swivels. A survey from a few years earlier shows just over 4600 shot, basically 1000 lead shot, 900 stone and the rest, cast-iron. No bronze or brass shot recorded.

I would guess that France would not be much different- if more bronze guns than wrought-iron, there would then be more cast-iron ammunition.

Smithbrown

 

[signumops]

How they raised money for their project is a mystery, but I would suspect that most of it came from donations. On the other hand, the "secret squirrel" overtones to a publicly managed resource recovery are what we have grown to expect today in view of bureaucratic omnipotent self-esteem that has gripped the country. I would not be surprised if they did not have to run their plans by the Dept. of Homeland Security... after all, they were using sensory equipment next to a federally controlled property (even though Florida claims submerged lands). As we speak I believe the Navy is threatening to arrest anyone conducting archaeological surveys in some of the swamps along the St. Johns in the vicinity of Fort Caroline near the Jacksonville Naval Air Station, a prime example of an elephant chasing a gnat. Even the bureaucrats are confused on this issue. Too bad for the rest of us.

As for the detectable iron: the survivors made use of iron fittings from the wreck as demonstrated by Doug Armstrong's excavations at the Armstrong site (see "French Castaways at Old Cape Canaveral", Signum Ops). The Armstrong Site was the location where Armstrong, DeBry and others found the remains of the suspect French occupation at the Gentle Bluffs. As DeBry was consulting on this latest project, I'm sure this was the area being examined by the dive crew. BTW, for all we know, they might have found something, and in keeping with their assumed privilege of secrecy, simply claimed they found nothing: we don't know. At any rate, as Randy Lathrop, John Brandon, Randy Andrews and I can attest from our own first-hand experience, the overburden near shore along the Cape is so deep that a puny water lance would be of little use in making a real discovery (see "West Of The Bull", Signum Ops). Triniti was lost at shore. The French had some guns salvaged and placed in their redoubts at the beach. Menendez could not use them, so he left them. Records indicate that he could not salvage any from the wreckage. It is entirely possible that somebody else came along and got them, but no record of any such venture has yet to surface in the literature we know of (see "A Hundred Giants", Signum Ops).

Now, after more than four centuries, I doubt that any iron that might be left at the wreckage would give off a signal that is readable under 20 feet of sand. On the other hand, bronze guns would essentially produce a detectable signal for the appropriate sensory device, as their bulk would remain solvent, unlike iron. Unfortunately, the reports of the Huguenots themselves tell us that we must be looking in the surf zone for the bones of their vessels... not easily done, and certainly not in 30 feet of water.

 

[Jon Phillips]

I think you are underestimating the use of iron in the ordnance. Offhand, all the 16th century Spanish wrecks found in American waters have had wrought-iron breechloaders and swivel guns. I suspect that the bronze guns may have been salvaged at the time, but it is still a big target.

A survey of English Navy in 1558 of 19 ships shows 312 bronze guns, 56 cast-iron and 949 wrought iron guns and swivels. A survey from a few years earlier shows just over 4600 shot, basically 1000 lead shot, 900 stone and the rest, cast-iron. No bronze or brass shot recorded.

I would guess that France would not be much different- if more bronze guns than wrought-iron, there would then be more cast-iron ammunition.

Smithbrown

I understand what you are saying, and there were many iron cannons listed on a couple of the ships' manifests...but as I said...they tended to be on the small side...swivel guns, and "hand cannon" type of weapons. A quick look at examples of the guns listed...falcons, culverins, etc., show them to be small cannons, and saker is a term put to many size cannons, but they tend to be on the medium side of the scale.

There were also iron anvils, and cannon carriages, etc., listed....my point was...the article would lead one to believe that all the cannons and cannonballs, etc., should ring out on a magnetometer like an 18th or 19th century wreck, when I believe it would be a much smaller ferrous signal than they believe.

Plus, items recovered from the wreck areas show that many things were salvaged from the wrecks, and used. I mean...they were building a redoubt and a boat out of the salvaged material. So I don't think that their recent search was conducted in the best way.

A lot of these ships were on the small side, so I have my doubts that many carried very large cannons...iron or bronze. I don't know how sensitive magnetometers are, but I do believe that a magnetometer search for these wrecks in deeper water wasn't the best method.

 

[Jon Phillips]

As we speak I believe the Navy is threatening to arrest anyone conducting archaeological surveys in some of the swamps along the St. Johns in the vicinity of Fort Caroline near the Jacksonville Naval Air Station,

Probably has something to do with this story...

Team says Ft. Caroline was in Jacksonville


They are targeting a small island in Chicopit Bay....which by looking at the property appraisers site...doesn't officially "belong" to anyone...so it is probably a way of keeping the "unworthy masses" from doing their own, unofficial investigation...you know...for the love of history. Now it can be protected until some grant money can be rounded up for an officially ordained search that will yield either no results with the need for more grant money...or top secret results that require a retina scan and an anal probe to find out about....

 

[ScubaFinder]

"At least now they know the technique is right, the equipment works. By Saturday, a few days before the search wrapped up, they had poked more than 200 holes at pinpointed locations in the sea floor. Nothing, apart from the shrimp boat."

WOW! So one out of 200 "pinpointed" locations hits a target, and the comment is "at least now we know the technique is right". Ask these guys about professional shipwreck salvors and they will tell you we are incompetent.....just sayin.