Just a short note to let you galleon enthusiasts know that yesterday there appeared a news release from one of Colombia's most influential weekly magazines, SEMANA, saying that the Colombian Supreme Court is about to rule on the 23 year old lawsuit between the American company Sea Search Armada and the Colombian Government regarding the San Jose. Whatever happens it will cause much commotion as there is much expectation regarding the effect this will all have on the future of shipwreck exploration here in Colombia. Wait and see
Galleon San Jose-Colombia
- Thread starter Panfilo
- Start date
I don't know if this story is true or not, but here it is. In 1985 frequented the AGI a marriage from Colombia that came to prepare the university thesis. She was the niece of an influential political with institutional occupation in Colombia. Well-known the reason of my historical research (I was preparing recovery projects in Azores and Canary islands and Andalusia) she wrote a letter to the uncle.
The uncle answered that the San José had already been recovered "privately" around 1983. True or false, I don't know.
I remember that in that time a Swedish researcher spend a search in the AGI.
Any suggestion?
The uncle answered that the San José had already been recovered "privately" around 1983. True or false, I don't know.
I remember that in that time a Swedish researcher spend a search in the AGI.
Any suggestion?
mad4wrecks
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That would be one heck of a salvage operation to keep quiet and do 'privately.'
It is my understanding the San Jose is at 700+ feet?
It is my understanding the San Jose is at 700+ feet?
- Thread starter
- #4
Claudio, there's been so much speculation and myths made up regarding this infamous wreck that a few books could be written on the subject! I believe it was in 2001 or 2002 when I was invited to testify in a Senate hearing regarding the UNESCO Convention and one of the Senators stated that she had privileged information to the effect that eight escudos dated 1706 and 1707 were being sold in a neighboring Caribbean island and that it was very "suspicious". I don't much believe this or other similar stories as the difficulty in doing this type of operation legally is so great, I hate to think of the logistics in a country with such serious problems in all of its coasts and so many agencies watching every movement to think anybody could pull this off is not very likely but not impossible.
diveguide
Jr. Member
just a little over 700 feet deep . please keep us posted on the ruling.
piratediver
Sr. Member
Since we are on the subject of SAN JOSE, there is a new book coming out on May 16 by Carla Rahn Phillips: "The Treasure of the SAN JOSE: Death at Sea in the War of the Spanish Succession." The link below takes you to the book at Amazon.
She also has an article appearing soon in Mariner's Mirror written with 2 of my coworkers
on the probable location of the SJ.
Now if only Colombia would allow someone to look for it!
Pirate Diver
http://www.amazon.com/Treasure-San-...1411856?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178892044&sr=8-6
She also has an article appearing soon in Mariner's Mirror written with 2 of my coworkers
on the probable location of the SJ.
Now if only Colombia would allow someone to look for it!
Pirate Diver
http://www.amazon.com/Treasure-San-...1411856?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178892044&sr=8-6
- Thread starter
- #8
The interesting thing about this particular wreck Claudio is that the Spanish (from Spain) version in the archives differs substantially from the English account of what happened and the British Navy log books were so much more detailed, exact and rigorous. Just the simple fact that you can compare the Pilots log, the Captains log, etc. gives you a much more comprehensive view of the battle. I have one Spanish account to the Casa de Contratacion saying that the SJ sank "allmost at the entrance of Boca chica" way, way off the actual place of events. My understanding of what happened was that some powder had become wet due to the terrible state the SJ was in and that it had been put to dry on deck that day. If this had anything to do with what later happened, I don't know but it would seem likely. One of Wagers broadside hit the SJs' Santa Barbara (powder bin) quite by accident and she exploded sending burning logs inches from where Wager was standing. This was reported by the British based on accounts of one of the SJ crew picked up by them.
old man
Bronze Member
Panfilo,
Any word on the Supreme Court's decison about the San Jose
Any word on the Supreme Court's decison about the San Jose
- Thread starter
- #10
Old Man: it appears that the Magistrate (Supreme Court Justice) that has been handling the Sea Search Armadas' case against the Colombian Govt. is retiering the upcoming July 4, a few weeks ahead. It has been disclosed that there will be a ruling before then. Unofficially I was told by a reporter who spoke with the Magistrate that "the ruling would be forthcoming no earlier then 2 or 3 weeks" which in this country means anyday or anytime! I'll let you all know as soon as its made public.
Colombia fights U.S. diver over gold-filled shipwreck
By JOSHUA GOODMAN
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
BOGOTA, Colombia -- The Spanish galleon San Jose was trying to outrun a fleet of British warships off Colombia's coast on June 8, 1708, when a mysterious explosion sent it to the bottom of the sea with gold, silver and emeralds now valued at more than $2 billion.
Three centuries later, a bitter legal and political dispute over the San Jose is still raging, with the Colombian Supreme Court expected to rule this week on rival claims by the government and a group of U.S. investors to what is reputed to be the world's richest shipwreck.
Anxiously awaiting the decision is Jack Harbeston, managing director of the Cayman Islands-registered commercial salvage company Sea Search Armada, who has taken on seven Colombian administrations over two decades in a legal fight to claim half the sunken hulk's riches.
"If I had known it was going to take this long, I wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place," said Harbeston, 75, who lives in Bellevue, Wash.
In 1982, Sea Search announced to the world it had found the San Jose's resting place 700 feet below the water's surface, a few miles from the historic Caribbean port of Cartagena. Under well-established maritime law, whoever locates a shipwreck gets the rights to recover it in a kind of finders-keepers arrangement meant to offset the huge costs of speculative exploration.
Harbeston claims he and a group of 100 U.S. investors - among them the late actor Michael Landon and convicted Nixon White House adviser John Ehrlichman - have invested more than $12 million since a deal was signed with Colombia in 1979 giving Sea Search exclusive rights to search for the San Jose and 50 percent of whatever they find.
But all that changed in 1984, when then-Colombian President Belisario Betancur signed a decree reducing Sea Search's share from 50 percent to a 5 percent "finder's fee."
Current President Alvaro Uribe's office declined to discuss the impending court decision, which is expected by Wednesday. But over the years successive governments have argued that Colombia's maritime agency never had the authority to award exploration contracts to Sea Search because the wreck is part of the country's cultural patrimony.
The government may also be motivated by dollar signs. Harbeston believes that if sold skillfully to collectors and museums, the San Jose's treasure could fetch as much $10 billion - more than a third of Colombia's foreign debt.
The real value is impossible to calculate because the ship's manifests have disappeared. But the San Jose is known to have been part of Spain's only royal convoy to try to bring colonial bullion home to King Philip V during the War of Spanish Succession with England from 1701-1714.
"Without a doubt the San Jose is the Holy Grail of treasure shipwrecks," said Robert Cembrola, director of the Naval War College Museum in Newport, R.I.
The San Jose has become a national obsession among Colombians, for whom the "gringos" are the latest in a long line of foreign plunderers dating back to the Spanish conquerors. But that has not prevented three lower courts from ruling that Sea Search is entitled to half the treasure.
Several U.S. congressmen and the State Department also took up the cause, warning in letters to successive Colombian presidents that what they considered a de-facto expropriation could jeopardize unilateral trade privileges.
Luis Felipe Barrios, a former government attorney on the case, said pressure from Washington was so intense that in the late 1990s he received a fax from former Sen. Jesse Helms, then-chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, threatening to revoke his visa.
Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., one of the most active campaigners on Sea Search's behalf, did not return calls or e-mails seeking comment. Most of the dozen other congressmen who took part in the letter-writing campaign have since retired.
Adding to this modern-day pirate drama is a mystery: Some question whether the ship has even been found.
In 1994, Colombia hired treasure hunter Tommy Thompson to verify Sea Search's coordinates. Thompson, an American who has since disappeared allegedly with millions in investors' loot from a previous deep-sea find, turned up nothing.
Another oceanographer, Mike Costin, who worked on a commercial submarine brought in by Sea Search for one of the company's early, booze-filled expeditions, also has his doubts.
"We found something, but I don't think it was the San Jose," he said.
An underwater video taken of the alleged wreck in 1982 shows what looks like a corral reef-covered woodpile.
"But drink a glass of wine and it can look like almost anything," said Tony Dyakowski, a Canadian treasure hunter based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Dyakowski claims to have uncovered sea logs that put the San Jose miles closer to the mainland.
Harbeston shrugs off his detractors, saying, "If everyone's so sure it's not down there, then why don't they let us finish what we've started?"
Wherever the hulk lies, marine archaeologists say advances in diving, sonar and metal-detection make it possible to find almost any underwater wreck today. The problem is fending off rivals for whom the glint of gold is too powerful to resist.
"It's like when you light a lantern in the forest and you discover all these insects you didn't know were there before are now descending on you," said Peter Hess, a Delaware lawyer who represents salvage companies.
Besides Sea Search, rival salvage companies and the Colombian government, Spain has also actively defended its sovereign rights over sunken ships that flew its flag. Last week, Spain filed claims in a U.S. federal court seeking up to $500 million in colonial treasure a Florida firm estimates it found recently in a shipwreck in the Atlantic Ocean.
Archeologists also have voiced concern, pointing to a 2001 UNESCO convention - backed by Spain but not signed by Colombia or the United States - that outlaws commercial exploitation of sunken cultural heritage.
"People forget the San Jose is an underwater grave of 600 men," said Carla Rahn Phillips, a University of Minnesota historian and author of the new book "The Treasure of the San Jose." "The wreck deserves to be treated with respect, and most salvors I know only pay lip service to its historical importance."
The Colombian court ruling will also affect other commercial salvage companies eager to dive for more than 1,000 galleons and merchant ships believed to have sunk along Colombia's corral reefs during more than three centuries of colonial rule. Almost none have been recovered due to the legal limbo in the San Jose case.
Daniel de Narvaez, a scuba-diving businessman hoping to salvage a wreck near the Caribbean island of San Andres, said that given the long, tortuous battle, he expects the decision could go either way.
"After such a laughable and tragic ordeal, nothing surprises me anymore," he said.
By JOSHUA GOODMAN
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
BOGOTA, Colombia -- The Spanish galleon San Jose was trying to outrun a fleet of British warships off Colombia's coast on June 8, 1708, when a mysterious explosion sent it to the bottom of the sea with gold, silver and emeralds now valued at more than $2 billion.
Three centuries later, a bitter legal and political dispute over the San Jose is still raging, with the Colombian Supreme Court expected to rule this week on rival claims by the government and a group of U.S. investors to what is reputed to be the world's richest shipwreck.
Anxiously awaiting the decision is Jack Harbeston, managing director of the Cayman Islands-registered commercial salvage company Sea Search Armada, who has taken on seven Colombian administrations over two decades in a legal fight to claim half the sunken hulk's riches.
"If I had known it was going to take this long, I wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place," said Harbeston, 75, who lives in Bellevue, Wash.
In 1982, Sea Search announced to the world it had found the San Jose's resting place 700 feet below the water's surface, a few miles from the historic Caribbean port of Cartagena. Under well-established maritime law, whoever locates a shipwreck gets the rights to recover it in a kind of finders-keepers arrangement meant to offset the huge costs of speculative exploration.
Harbeston claims he and a group of 100 U.S. investors - among them the late actor Michael Landon and convicted Nixon White House adviser John Ehrlichman - have invested more than $12 million since a deal was signed with Colombia in 1979 giving Sea Search exclusive rights to search for the San Jose and 50 percent of whatever they find.
But all that changed in 1984, when then-Colombian President Belisario Betancur signed a decree reducing Sea Search's share from 50 percent to a 5 percent "finder's fee."
Current President Alvaro Uribe's office declined to discuss the impending court decision, which is expected by Wednesday. But over the years successive governments have argued that Colombia's maritime agency never had the authority to award exploration contracts to Sea Search because the wreck is part of the country's cultural patrimony.
The government may also be motivated by dollar signs. Harbeston believes that if sold skillfully to collectors and museums, the San Jose's treasure could fetch as much $10 billion - more than a third of Colombia's foreign debt.
The real value is impossible to calculate because the ship's manifests have disappeared. But the San Jose is known to have been part of Spain's only royal convoy to try to bring colonial bullion home to King Philip V during the War of Spanish Succession with England from 1701-1714.
"Without a doubt the San Jose is the Holy Grail of treasure shipwrecks," said Robert Cembrola, director of the Naval War College Museum in Newport, R.I.
The San Jose has become a national obsession among Colombians, for whom the "gringos" are the latest in a long line of foreign plunderers dating back to the Spanish conquerors. But that has not prevented three lower courts from ruling that Sea Search is entitled to half the treasure.
Several U.S. congressmen and the State Department also took up the cause, warning in letters to successive Colombian presidents that what they considered a de-facto expropriation could jeopardize unilateral trade privileges.
Luis Felipe Barrios, a former government attorney on the case, said pressure from Washington was so intense that in the late 1990s he received a fax from former Sen. Jesse Helms, then-chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, threatening to revoke his visa.
Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., one of the most active campaigners on Sea Search's behalf, did not return calls or e-mails seeking comment. Most of the dozen other congressmen who took part in the letter-writing campaign have since retired.
Adding to this modern-day pirate drama is a mystery: Some question whether the ship has even been found.
In 1994, Colombia hired treasure hunter Tommy Thompson to verify Sea Search's coordinates. Thompson, an American who has since disappeared allegedly with millions in investors' loot from a previous deep-sea find, turned up nothing.
Another oceanographer, Mike Costin, who worked on a commercial submarine brought in by Sea Search for one of the company's early, booze-filled expeditions, also has his doubts.
"We found something, but I don't think it was the San Jose," he said.
An underwater video taken of the alleged wreck in 1982 shows what looks like a corral reef-covered woodpile.
"But drink a glass of wine and it can look like almost anything," said Tony Dyakowski, a Canadian treasure hunter based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Dyakowski claims to have uncovered sea logs that put the San Jose miles closer to the mainland.
Harbeston shrugs off his detractors, saying, "If everyone's so sure it's not down there, then why don't they let us finish what we've started?"
Wherever the hulk lies, marine archaeologists say advances in diving, sonar and metal-detection make it possible to find almost any underwater wreck today. The problem is fending off rivals for whom the glint of gold is too powerful to resist.
"It's like when you light a lantern in the forest and you discover all these insects you didn't know were there before are now descending on you," said Peter Hess, a Delaware lawyer who represents salvage companies.
Besides Sea Search, rival salvage companies and the Colombian government, Spain has also actively defended its sovereign rights over sunken ships that flew its flag. Last week, Spain filed claims in a U.S. federal court seeking up to $500 million in colonial treasure a Florida firm estimates it found recently in a shipwreck in the Atlantic Ocean.
Archeologists also have voiced concern, pointing to a 2001 UNESCO convention - backed by Spain but not signed by Colombia or the United States - that outlaws commercial exploitation of sunken cultural heritage.
"People forget the San Jose is an underwater grave of 600 men," said Carla Rahn Phillips, a University of Minnesota historian and author of the new book "The Treasure of the San Jose." "The wreck deserves to be treated with respect, and most salvors I know only pay lip service to its historical importance."
The Colombian court ruling will also affect other commercial salvage companies eager to dive for more than 1,000 galleons and merchant ships believed to have sunk along Colombia's corral reefs during more than three centuries of colonial rule. Almost none have been recovered due to the legal limbo in the San Jose case.
Daniel de Narvaez, a scuba-diving businessman hoping to salvage a wreck near the Caribbean island of San Andres, said that given the long, tortuous battle, he expects the decision could go either way.
"After such a laughable and tragic ordeal, nothing surprises me anymore," he said.
old man
Bronze Member
Panfilo, I want to thank you for keeping all of us informed about the Supreme Court case in your Country. You sound like an expert in your field. Thanks again.
Amona
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Jekk K Said
Any treasure belonging to Colombia and the cultural patrimony, it should stay in Colombia, otherwise, Oprah has 2 Billion dollars to share.
Any treasure belonging to Colombia and the cultural patrimony, it should stay in Colombia, otherwise, Oprah has 2 Billion dollars to share.
Has anyone ever given it some serious thought about how much money American Salvors spend looking for Treasure around the world.
Just add the cost of everyship and equipment and this does not include fuel cost, labor and the cost of Research. Nothing is FREE.
You must spend money to make money.
That Is The Bottom Line.
Peg leg
Just add the cost of everyship and equipment and this does not include fuel cost, labor and the cost of Research. Nothing is FREE.
You must spend money to make money.
That Is The Bottom Line.
Peg leg
Amona
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I hope the Colombian Government say 5% or nothing.
Amona
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I may be just a cultural Neanderthal, but I fail to understand how something sitting at the bottom of the sea for 200 or 300 or 400 years can be regarded as a valuable cultural resource. I personally believe this is all attributable to the publicized "value" of the wrecks. When people start hearing about materials, be they gold, silver,gemstones, jewelry or historically significant items, being recovered that needy and greedy portion of human nature rears its ugly head.
I understand that the people of Columbia and many other countries of the world are in need of better living conditions and their governments (corrupt as they may be by American standards) are in need of money, but they'd be a lot better off to make a reasonable 50-50 deal with foreign salvors than to demand 95% and get nothing at all.
Just my .02 worth.
I understand that the people of Columbia and many other countries of the world are in need of better living conditions and their governments (corrupt as they may be by American standards) are in need of money, but they'd be a lot better off to make a reasonable 50-50 deal with foreign salvors than to demand 95% and get nothing at all.
Just my .02 worth.
Darren in NC
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The greed that is attributed to salvors applies to all who wish they could go get it, too - only they have another quality that makes it even worse - envy. Thus, the ensuing litigation. Very sad. I seriously doubt that the people of Columbia (or any other nation - rich or poor) are pining away over their "cultural resources" within their territorial waters. A few short years ago, there was no such thing. The law of salvage has been around for hundreds of years. This is all a smokescreen of politicians and bystanding companies who can't stand that someone took a risk and found something. So they write articles and pass laws that will never allow anything to be recovered. Meanwhile, the people lose. Their country never gets 50%, they never see an exhibition or learn how they, too, might become risk-takers. Better hurry, int'l waters won't be easy for long, either...
Court: Find Shipwreck, Then Split Bounty
Associated Press Writer 07.05.07, 9:54 PM ET
A Spanish galleon that sank 300 years ago laden with treasure must first be recovered before an international dispute over the fortune can be settled, Colombia's highest court ruled Thursday.
The shipwreck of the San Jose is thought to have $2 billion worth of gold, silver and emeralds in what may be the world's largest sunken treasure.
The Supreme Court ruled that once the San Jose is lifted from the sea, experts can classify its artifacts following Colombian law.
Pieces declared "treasure" will be split evenly between the Colombian government and Sea Search Armada, the Seattle-based company that claims to have discovered the shipwreck. Items classified as part of Colombia's cultural patrimony will be awarded solely to the government.
Laden down with treasures extracted from the Americas, the San Jose sank off Colombia's Caribbean coast on June 1708 while trying to outrun British warships on its way to Spain.
In 1979, Sea Search Armada, along with 100 U.S. investors, signed a deal with the Colombian government giving them exclusive rights to search for the San Jose and 50 percent of whatever they find. In 1982, Sea Search announced it had discovered the shipwreck.
Two years later, then-Colombian President Belisario Betancur overturned well-established maritime law that gives 50 percent to whoever locates a shipwreck, signing a decree that slashed Sea Search's take down to a 5 percent "finder's fee".
Sea Search, which claims to have invested $12 million since beginning its search nearly three decades ago, took the government to court. Messages left with Sea Search's managing director were not immediately returned.
There even remains some doubt as to whether the ship has even been found.
A treasure hunter hired by the government to verify the coordinates turned up nothing. An underwater video taken of the alleged wreck in 1982 shows what looks like a corral reef-covered woodpile.
Associated Press Writer 07.05.07, 9:54 PM ET
A Spanish galleon that sank 300 years ago laden with treasure must first be recovered before an international dispute over the fortune can be settled, Colombia's highest court ruled Thursday.
The shipwreck of the San Jose is thought to have $2 billion worth of gold, silver and emeralds in what may be the world's largest sunken treasure.
The Supreme Court ruled that once the San Jose is lifted from the sea, experts can classify its artifacts following Colombian law.
Pieces declared "treasure" will be split evenly between the Colombian government and Sea Search Armada, the Seattle-based company that claims to have discovered the shipwreck. Items classified as part of Colombia's cultural patrimony will be awarded solely to the government.
Laden down with treasures extracted from the Americas, the San Jose sank off Colombia's Caribbean coast on June 1708 while trying to outrun British warships on its way to Spain.
In 1979, Sea Search Armada, along with 100 U.S. investors, signed a deal with the Colombian government giving them exclusive rights to search for the San Jose and 50 percent of whatever they find. In 1982, Sea Search announced it had discovered the shipwreck.
Two years later, then-Colombian President Belisario Betancur overturned well-established maritime law that gives 50 percent to whoever locates a shipwreck, signing a decree that slashed Sea Search's take down to a 5 percent "finder's fee".
Sea Search, which claims to have invested $12 million since beginning its search nearly three decades ago, took the government to court. Messages left with Sea Search's managing director were not immediately returned.
There even remains some doubt as to whether the ship has even been found.
A treasure hunter hired by the government to verify the coordinates turned up nothing. An underwater video taken of the alleged wreck in 1982 shows what looks like a corral reef-covered woodpile.
old man
Bronze Member
Jeff K., You the Man. Thanks for the great news.
- Thread starter
- #20
It's incredible how the News industry works, how reporters with the best intentions and with the honorable and noble idea of "informing the public" will distort the facts and somehow give a false idea of what actually happened. I read in one of the news sites this headline:"Show us the booty, Colombian court says. Shipwreck could be worth $2 billion, but has it really been found" It's quite understandable that the poor reporter that had to get his story to print didn't have the time to read the 243 page ruling nor was it possible as the complete ruling will be made available to the public in a few days. The preliminary information that is true is that Sea Search Armada did win the lawsuit in that the higher court upheld the previous decision that they had rights to 50% of the "treasure" and not a 5% "finders fee" as was interpreted by some lawyers. That is good in the sense that you can't change the rules of the game in the middle of the game, fair play and all that. The Court does make a division as to the cargo (it had to otherwise all objects would go to the government as the Constitution states that "Patrimony" objects can not be sold) and "Patrimony" objects (in broad terms all "unique" items) go to the government and repeated or "non unique" items are split 50-50 between the salvor and the government. The second category encompasses coins, bullion, emeralds and any item that is in multiple numbers. What the Supreme Court does not say is that the wreck must first be recovered before it can be split up. Actually my understanding from a radio interview this morning of SSA's lawyer, they only have rights to a 1/2 mile area where they filed the claim in 1983 and Tommy Thomson in 1994 verified that outside of a geologic anomaly there is no wreck in the area so in my "preliminary understanding" or the verdict, they lost though they won the lawsuit. I will be reading the ruling over the weekend so next week I'll have a better understanding of what all it encompasses. Remember though that Colombia has yet to enact a new law on shipwreck recovery that in the best case scenario takes 1 1/2 to 2 years provided the pro UNESCO fanatics who want to give all the colonial era wrecks to Spain go on an extended vacation from the Ministry of Culture.
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