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Thread: Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

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  1. #256

    May 2018
    Gainesville, FL
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    Highly doubtful, in my opinion. I think the only plausible related scenario is if they purposefully omitted the translation of the rest of Alva's letter because it included context to suggest the ship carrying the monuments was not the Trinite. I haven't read all the case documents yet, but I believe I exhausted all those to include evidence of additional monuments being onboard the Trinite. If my memory serves correct, the most conclusive court document presented (that I was trying to find) was from the Spanish archives documenting a French survivors account of there being additional monuments onboard [one or more of] the wrecked ships. I would interpret the Alva letter to be such, but it would be great if the entire letter was translated.
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  2. #257
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
    De Tampe Bahia - La Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntsman53 View Post
    I wonder if any of the documents/letters were forged or added to after the State of Florida notified France after GME filed for a salvage permit and or arrest of the shipwreck. Sorry but I don't trust the French any further than I can throw them as they got us into the Vietnam War and then bailed on us, they kicked U.S. Troops out of France in 1967 after we demanded some repayment of War debts for what the U.S. spent on rebuilding many cities in France and especially Paris and also because they treated us (myself and fellow soldiers from my' Unit) like dirt when we spent nearly a week in Paris on Leave. Paris is a nasty city with nasty people!
    Hence why I would have told em to go pound sand.
    huntsman53 likes this.
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - Lurking in The RCT - Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...l-welcome.html

  3. #258
    br
    Jul 2018
    78
    70 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Bull Shiite!! If a factual not made up document can show that the monument found by GME was not on the Trinite and in turn proves that the ship is not the Trinite, then it has a lot of bearing on the decision.
    There were matches to cannon and other artefacts, not just the monument, that made it a perfect match for the manifest of the Trinity.
    As others have suggested reading the court ruling details everything very distinctly.
    or you can just keep guessing.

  4. #259
    us
    Jun 2013
    East Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterD View Post
    Highly doubtful, in my opinion. I think the only plausible related scenario is if they purposefully omitted the translation of the rest of Alva's letter because it included context to suggest the ship carrying the monuments was not the Trinite. I haven't read all the case documents yet, but I believe I exhausted all those to include evidence of additional monuments being onboard the Trinite. If my memory serves correct, the most conclusive court document presented (that I was trying to find) was from the Spanish archives documenting a French survivors account of there being additional monuments onboard [one or more of] the wrecked ships. I would interpret the Alva letter to be such, but it would be great if the entire letter was translated.
    Due to the amount of cargo that the La Trinité was carrying, your theory is highly plausible per the items listed on her' Manifest by NOAA (i.e. A significant amount of munitions, armament, and supplies are listed on its 28 April 1565 manifest. Iron objects which are likely preserved include 20 berches (large faucons or falcons, a class of cannon); four chiens (another artillery class); 977 cannon balls; 300 iron pikes; 1,300 nails; 100 corsets of armor; 3,153 pounds of stock iron; two anvils; a large iron bowl; a sheet of iron; and a variety of small items including tongs, hooks, pincers, and other hand tools.). It is quite possible that the L’…mérillon (2) was carrying the Monuments because her' cargo was somewhat of a mystery or secret per her' manifest also listed by NOAA (i.e. Her cargo and armament remains somewhat of a mystery, as her full manifest is not extant and the surviving receipt signed by her captain Vincent Collas lists only 48 cannon balls and 56 pounds of gunpowder.). It appears that the L’…mérillon (2) would have had plenty of room for the Monuments and would not have been overloaded.
    Last edited by huntsman53; Jul 12, 2018 at 02:43 PM.
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  5. #260
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    sadly ---the French won the wreck by claiming rights under the "sunken military craft act" ...by claiming all of the French fleet vessels that left fort caroline were on a "military mission" at the time of thier sinking being they were headed to attack the Spanish at St Augustine when they was struck by a hurricane / strong storm ...sadly for GME … it did not need to be sunk by enemy action to be thought of as "sunk while on a military mission" ….much like the Spanish Armada that sank while enroute to attack England by bad weather is thought of as "war graves" even thought they were not sunk by combat ---- the French in my view should at least have to at least pay a "finders fee" to cover the finding cost ...but we all know that's not happening ….

    and if one claimed it was a "looted" monument from fort caroline on a Spanish vessel headed back to St Augustine --the Spanish would then step in claiming it as a "military craft on a mission" (returning proof that the French had tried to claim florida --thus justifying the attack on fort caroline--the monument would be the "proof" spain needed) --so basically your screwed either way ...esp when your own govt is working against you …
    Last edited by ivan salis; Jul 22, 2018 at 05:04 AM.
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  6. #261
    us
    Jun 2013
    East Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis View Post
    sadly ---the French won the wreck by claiming rights under the "sunken military craft act" ...by claiming all of the French fleet vessels that left fort caroline were on a "military mission" at the time of thier sinking being they were headed to attack the Spanish at St Augustine when they was struck by a hurricane / strong storm ...sadly for GME … it did not need to be sunk by enemy action to be thought of as "sunk while on a military mission" ….much like the Spanish Armada that sank while enroute to attack England by bad weather is thought of as "war graves" even thought they were not sunk by combat ---- the French in my view should at least have to at least pay a "finders fee" to cover the finding cost ...but we all know that's not happening ….

    and if one claimed it was a "looted" monument from fort caroline on a Spanish vessel headed back to St Augustine --the Spanish would then step in claiming it as a "military craft on a mission" (returning proof that the French had tried to claim florida --thus justifying the attack on fort caroline--the monument would be the "proof" spain needed) --so basically your screwed either way ...esp when your own govt is working against you …
    ivan...You are right are right if the shipwreck turns out to be a Spanish ship and not the La Trinite as the Spanish were on a military mission but as I noted in the other Thread (see the link below), Ribault's Fleet was on a relief mission, so France's claim that the La Trinite was on a military mission holds no water. However, like you said, when your own government is working against you as well as the State of Florida, you are screwed.

    US Court: Shipwreck Found off Florida Belongs to France

  7. #262
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    yes the French fleet WAS on a resupply mission --but once under attack by the Spanish fleet --its " mission status" changed ,,,it had to become a military attack force --to defend the settlement and themselves from Spanish attack by taking he fight to the Spanish at St Augustine ….it is known as "change of orders due to military necessity" where your forced to attack others due to being attacked by enemy ships ..

  8. #263
    us
    Pirate of the Martires

    Feb 2005
    Port Richey, Florida
    Aquapulse, J.W. Fisher Proton 3, Pulse Star II, Detector Pro Headhunter, AK-47
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    It doesn't matter what the mission was, the French fleet are still warships.

  9. #264

    May 2018
    Gainesville, FL
    17
    10 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by huntsman53 View Post
    ivan...You are right are right if the shipwreck turns out to be a Spanish ship and not the La Trinite as the Spanish were on a military mission but as I noted in the other Thread (see the link below), Ribault's Fleet was on a relief mission, so France's claim that the La Trinite was on a military mission holds no water. However, like you said, when your own government is working against you as well as the State of Florida, you are screwed.
    Genuine question: are there legal definitions of these terms (e.g., military mission, relief mission, etc.)? I would assume Ribault's mission was intended to serve both purposes, but from reading this thread there appears to be an unwritten rule of dichotomy.

  10. #265
    us
    Jun 2013
    East Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterD View Post
    Genuine question: are there legal definitions of these terms (e.g., military mission, relief mission, etc.)? I would assume Ribault's mission was intended to serve both purposes, but from reading this thread there appears to be an unwritten rule of dichotomy.
    Well, on Treasure Net we are allowed to have a different take, interpretation or opinions on things as long as we keep it civil. Besides, the State of Florida and some countries involved in this and other shipwreck matters, all too often skew the facts to meet their needs. Call it distrust on my part which I have had ever since the State of Florida personnel removed the 3 cases of Brown Bess Rifles, barrels of Black Powder, Flints and other items from under the West Martello Towers Fort in Key West and all but one to three disappeared into the night. I was the one that located the void under the arched entrance way into the Fort which was being leased and used by the Key West Garden Club at the time. I found it while metal detecting but was not allowed to dig to see what was there. After 3 months of the State trying to decide what to do, they finally showed up and excavated the entrance way and found an underground bunker containing the items noted above. They covered it over, then came back in the middle of the night with a truck, loaded the items on the truck and left. No one knows or even seems to care where all of the other Brown Bess Rifles and other items found went to.
    releventchair and Salvor6 like this.

  11. #266
    Charter Member
    us
    "WP"

    May 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterD View Post
    Genuine question: are there legal definitions of these terms (e.g., military mission, relief mission, etc.)? I would assume Ribault's mission was intended to serve both purposes, but from reading this thread there appears to be an unwritten rule of dichotomy.
    Manifest of April 28th 1565 for La Trinite contains no mention of pillars. If smuggling pillars and other non-manifested cargo was it then a pirate ship? Subject to such treatment of it's contraband? L.o.l..
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  12. #267
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    by todays standards ..if you find a ship ... always say its a oirate / unknown ship ..so no nation can claim it out from under you ...pirate ships are by definition "ships of no nation" … let them prove otherwise...just because coinage of a certain nation is aboard does not mean that is the vessel's country of ownership / origin ---Spanish coins on it do not make it a Spanish ship -per si
    Last edited by ivan salis; Jul 25, 2018 at 04:28 AM.
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