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Thread: Colombia in Dispute over Shipwreck Treasures

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  1. #31
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
    De Tampe Bahia - La Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post
    Sold at a premium, and exceptional quality, have no bearing in market terms, its all relative. A famous shipwreck, well, it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading.

    The image shown is from a shipwreck, and is of little value in todays cut market. Previously, a large green stone was all it took, not the gem quality we know of today.
    Look at many of the Crown Jewels, just really large gaudy stones, but cut/clarity....

    Attachment 1547752

    MAI....The Atocha recovery seems to have been widely misrepresented in the value, reportedly valued at $400 million, but in reality only selling for $80 Million? (and quite a bit still for sale?)

    Look at the coins from other wrecks, such as the El Cazador or Sao Jose.....why is the Atocha famous? Because......

    As you are wondering, what are the values for bars and coins, you can get a silver El Cazador 8 Reale coin in a NGC box with Cert for $20 on eBay....
    First off...

    Only an estimated half of the treasure has been recovered.

    As far as comparison of El Cazador or Sao Jose wreck coins VS Atocha... there is none.

    When talking Atocha... You are talking about coins that over 100 years older... HUGE difference.

    Not to mention huge difference in "type" of wreck coins... Sao Jose was a slave wreck... not a treasure ship.
    And the El Cazador was a Spanish Brig... again... not a treasure ship.

    This difference ... makes a difference.
    doc-d likes this.
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - Lurking in The RCT - Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...l-welcome.html

  2. #32
    us
    Stickmarsh Jedi Master

    Mar 2014
    Florida Treasure Coast
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    I'm a firm believer that something is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. But the fact that the Atocha has become the most famous Spanish galleon of all-time definitely adds value to the coins above their numismatic value. Plus we know the details of her last voyage, so the coins have a story.
    AARC and doc-d like this.
    "Today's the day!" - Mel Fisher

  3. #33

    Jan 2016
    888
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Not to mention huge difference in "type" of wreck coins... Sao Jose was a slave wreck... not a treasure ship.
    And the El Cazador was a Spanish Brig... again... not a treasure ship.

    This difference ... makes a difference.
    Do you think the market, or the people buying a shipwreck coin know the difference?

    The Atocha is famous because Mel marketed the heck out of it.

    Look at the Cert Of Authenticity that is provided with Sao Jose...(and the price of the pendant)

    https://www.lostgalleon.com/shop/876...k-Pendant.html

    Atocha was famous for being first, but that generation is fading. No one of the next generation knew or knows of Mel and the hype, its all just shipwreck treasure coins, famous for being famous as a treasure shipwreck.....
    Last edited by seekerGH; Feb 13, 2018 at 12:50 PM.
    Jason in Enid and doc-d like this.

  4. #34

    Sep 2005
    546
    318 times
    seekerGH...

    There clearly were multitudes of treasure fleets that sailed and sank historically so the wrecks may seem like their ďa dime a dozenĒ, but it is a huge investment in time, money, knowledge/research/skills, equipment and operating costs, and oh yeah... blood, sweat and tears to bring these wrecks back to the light of day.

    For those of us who research/recover/conserve, and buy/sell/and trade artifacts and treasure for a living, we know that these historical pieces have a basic intrinsic value but itís the story behind the wrecks and behind their modern day discovery and recovery of these pieces of history that truly add to the value of these finds...

    Ultimately anything being sold is only worth what someone will pay for them, but most folks that I have done business with over the years want to know the stories of the wrecks themselves but even more so, love to see my passion for this endeavor and appreciate the stories of the efforts it took for them to be able to own that piece of history. It all plays into the value...

  5. #35
    us
    Dec 2010
    back on the 1715!!
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    "Do you think the market, or the people buying a shipwreck coin know the difference?"

    Well yes, yes I do. Spanish colonial coins from shipwrecks are collected, bought for resale and trade by highly knowledgeable numismatists all over the world.

    "The Atocha is famous because Mel marketed the heck out of it." Wait I thought you said it was "it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading."

    So now you somewhat admit Mel's business acumen made the Atocha famous..... that's a start.

    and again "Atocha was famous for being first, but that generation is fading. No one of the next generation knew or knows of Mel and the hype, its all just shipwreck treasure coins, famous for being famous as a treasure shipwreck.....

    So like umm Atocha mother lode found in 1985 is 33 years ago..... The story is timeless and an incredible human interest story for generations. There are many lessons one can learn from that story to improve one's life.

    I'm sure if you ask operations they would tell you people of all ages come through the museums and shops. I myself meet and talk to people in all age ranges that find shipwreck treasures of the 1715 Fleet, Atocha and Margarita highly interesting. People will always be interested in shipwreck treasure. The stories of the treasure searching and finding are just as interesting to people.

    Like PhipsFolly.... WE know this because this is our world. We actual explore for and recover historical shipwreck artifacts. We deal with it daily.

    Maybe you lack this knowledge from looking on the outside in ?
    doc-d likes this.
    "The finding of a great treasure from the days of the Spanish Main is not the cherished dream of only the United States and Florida citizens; countless peoples from other lands have shared such thoughts. It would amaze and surprise most citizens of this country, when their dream, at the greatest of costs, was realized, the agents of respective governments would, on the most flimsy grounds, lay claim to the treasure."
    ---Judge William O.Mehrtens
    1978 Ruling Against the State of Florida

  6. #36
    us
    Dec 2010
    back on the 1715!!
    909
    553 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post

    Look at the Cert Of Authenticity that is provided with Sao Jose...(and the price of the pendant)

    https://www.lostgalleon.com/shop/876...k-Pendant.html
    What is the point you are attempting to make with this?
    doc-d likes this.
    "The finding of a great treasure from the days of the Spanish Main is not the cherished dream of only the United States and Florida citizens; countless peoples from other lands have shared such thoughts. It would amaze and surprise most citizens of this country, when their dream, at the greatest of costs, was realized, the agents of respective governments would, on the most flimsy grounds, lay claim to the treasure."
    ---Judge William O.Mehrtens
    1978 Ruling Against the State of Florida

  7. #37

    Jan 2016
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    Maybe you lack this knowledge from looking on the outside in ?
    Yes, that is it. Brilliant response as usual.

    The millennials with money have no idea who Mel was, and few even know who Cousteau was...go and ask.

    You and other crustaceans know, because you live it, you have nothing else. Go stand outside the museum in Key West, ask the crowd anything about the Atocha. I was there over New Years, and no one, absolutely no one knew what the Atocha was. A few knew who Mel was, by looking up at the musuem...go ahead, try it yourself.

    There is nothing inordinarily famous about the Atocha. If it was so famous, why is so much of it still for sale?

    What is the point you are attempting to make with this?
    Did you read the description of the Sao Jose as it is presented? According to the site, it carried royal treasure of Prince Philip III, According to the Cert, it was the almiranta of the fleet, carrying royal treasure for the Portuguese empire, and the wealth of the grandson of famous explorer Vasco De Gama....

    For the public, it is a treasure ship, no different that the Atocha. You are correct, people will always be interested in shipwreck treasure, but few care little other than that title...
    doc-d likes this.

  8. #38
    us
    Dec 2010
    back on the 1715!!
    909
    553 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post

    you have nothing else.
    My response to quote you is ..... Yes, that is it. Brilliant response as usual.

    You're a funny fellow.... That is such a little person's comment that takes the cake even for you. Did I hit a nerve? it wasn't personal it was an observation of you on these forums....

    Why is it that thread after thread you go off track with negative comments personal attacks about treasure hunting and/or treasure hunters?
    doc-d and T.C. like this.
    "The finding of a great treasure from the days of the Spanish Main is not the cherished dream of only the United States and Florida citizens; countless peoples from other lands have shared such thoughts. It would amaze and surprise most citizens of this country, when their dream, at the greatest of costs, was realized, the agents of respective governments would, on the most flimsy grounds, lay claim to the treasure."
    ---Judge William O.Mehrtens
    1978 Ruling Against the State of Florida

  9. #39
    us
    Sir

    Sep 2015
    Connecticut
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    Good hunting and good luck.
    doc-d and Blak bart like this.

  10. #40
    us
    Jul 2016
    Florida
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    65 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Interesting back and forward. Still, the question remains: how much would you guys say a $1,000,000 pesos Spanish cargo from the 17th or 18th century is worth? On a related matter, in past few months we have received several offers in order to keep the integrity of a collection whole, and avoid selling artifacts, to contemplate using it as a base for a cryptocurrency. I see the merit in the idea. Have you heard similar proposals? What do you think?
    doc-d likes this.

  11. #41
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
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    Shipwrecks
    By definition, crypto-currency needs no base. It's value comes from a limited issue created digitally, and distributed via a blockchain. No base is needed. It's ultimate value will be based on its utility - how widespread it will be used between businesses and individuals. Most crypto today will be worthless soon as most dot.coms were worthless after the initial internet boom. Bitcoin and a few others could mature and do well.

    I am open and curious, though. How was it presented to you to be used as a base, as a base would limit the currency to the value of the base itself?
    doc-d likes this.

  12. #42
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
    De Tampe Bahia - La Florida
    JW 8X - ML X2
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    Ehhh not sure about this "crypto"...

    And spell check doesn't even recognize the name / word "bitcoin"...

    Why would I recognize it as a currency. heh
    doc-d likes this.
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - Lurking in The RCT - Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...l-welcome.html

  13. #43
    us
    Jul 2016
    Florida
    63
    65 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren in Louisiana View Post
    By definition, crypto-currency needs no base. It's value comes from a limited issue created digitally, and distributed via a blockchain. No base is needed. It's ultimate value will be based on its utility - how widespread it will be used between businesses and individuals. Most crypto today will be worthless soon as most dot.coms were worthless after the initial internet boom. Bitcoin and a few others could mature and do well.

    I am open and curious, though. How was it presented to you to be used as a base, as a base would limit the currency to the value of the base itself?
    Darren, what was curious about these proposals is that they came from separate sources and in a very short period of time (like different people had arrived to the same conclusion, independently of each other, at the same time). I'm certainly no expert in this issue. The issue of electronic currencies having no base, and therefore laking somewhat in value, is exactly why they thought it could be important to associate such currencies to something that is more tangible, will hold value, and cannot be divided. One of the proposals came from a team what was using the same approach with famous work of art as a base for their crypto-currency.

    I myself see the value in trying to maintain the integrity of the collection together if at all possible, by not having to sell the artifacts recovered from a certain shipwreck. What I do not see, is the conundrum of how to solve the investor's returns aspects of this dilema. I have heard that Barry Clifford somehow figured out how to reach this balance with his Whidah project, but I do not know the details. I also heard that Tommy Thompson attempted to do the same and ended up half crazy, in jail, and covered with law suites. Tough problem to crack for sure.
    doc-d likes this.

  14. #44
    us
    marine archaeologist

    Jun 2015
    Rhode Island
    teknetics
    3
    4 times
    Shipwrecks

    Whydah project

    As the first archaeologist on the Whydah project and the guy who identified her in 1984 and still consults on her, Barry Clifford figured out a long time ago that keeping a unique treasure together can generate income indefinitely. His new museum on Cape Cod and traveling exhibits provides income enough to continue excavating since 1984!

    Recently a bone found in concretion will undergo lab analysis to determine if it belongs to Sam Bellamy as a relative of his has been located in the U.K. thus we have certain Bellamy DNA to compare it with.
    doc-d and AARC like this.

  15. #45
    us
    Scotland, Aye !!

    Oct 2004
    N. San Diego area (Pic of my two best 'finds'; son and grandson)
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    When we salvaged the "Capitana" (1654) off Ecuador several years ago, we had the salvage law changed to a 50/50 division. We then divided the treasure and other artifacts into two 'pots'; then gave the Ec. government the first choice. They approved the procedure and everyone was pleased.
    Don......
    doc-d and AARC like this.

 

 
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