Ponte Vedra Beach shipwreck destroys FBAR's "embedded" argument

Apr 29, 2007
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The shipwreck that recently washed ashore at Ponte Vedra Beach literally destroys the Florida Bureau of Archeological Research’s “embedded”argument and could lead to new lawsuits regarding what the State claims are “embedded shipwrecks”.
The Abandoned Shipwreck Act defines "embedded" as firmly affixed in the submerged lands or in coralline formations such that the use of tools of excavation are required in order to move the bottom sedimentsto gain access to the shipwreck, its cargo, and any part thereof.
Global Marine Exploration contends that shipwrecks laying in the sand are generally not embedded and are constantly being uncovered and spread around by shifting currents and storms and are at high risk of being completely destroyed and all that could have been learned from them lost forever.
In ongoing litigation with GME over several shipwrecks discovered in permit area 2015.03 (issued to Global Marine Exploration by the Florida Bureau of Archeological Research), one of the state’s witnesses states: underwater archaeological features, like those at issue in this action, have stayed roughly in the same location over the centuries. The location of these archaeological features are generally not significantly impacted by the centuries of storms that have passed through the area, otherwise these historic shipwrecks would have been totally lost. Based on his personal observations and career experience as an underwater archaeologist, a terrestrial archaeologist, and a diver of 32 years he has never seen a historic shipwreck completely exposed sitting on the seafloor like somethingout of the Pirates of the Caribbean.
The National Park Service Guidelines defines a shipwreck as being “firmly affixed,”if tools of excavation are required to move the bottom sediments in order to access the shipwreck, its cargo, and any part thereof. Even the use of a hand or ping-pong paddles, if it is being used to remove sediment to gain access to the shipwreck or any part of it, would be considered a tool of excavation under that definition.
The shipwreck that washed ashore this week is only one of several examples that clearly demonstrate that if shipwrecks are not “encased”or “cocooned” in coral, calcium carbonate, or similar substances and are merely laying on the sand, they do not fit the definition of embedded and cannot be considered “firmly affixed in the submerged lands”. This shipwreck further demonstrates that historical sites in unstable sand environments need to be studied, mapped, and recovered; the artifacts need to be conserved and protected before they are completely lost. Leaving them in-situ is not preservation and in my opinion is completely irresponsible.
One big question remains about this wreck, what wreck is it and where did it come from? Diver_Down on Treasurenet.com says:
“Actually, this is a"new" wreck that was washed in. It is theorized that it was encased in the sand at sea and with the recent Nor'Easters (seriously Porpoise Point isnearly gone) and hurricanes that the overburden had been moved and the currents moved it from it's resting place. Likely from the 17-1800s with the construction. One cool feature is the roman numerals that are carved into thewooden ribs. The idea that it was a "part no." in the assembly of the hull. They are trying to move it up the beach and out of the surf zone. I suspect that there will be no funding for any conservation effort and eventually they will bury it up by the dune line if they do manage to move it. There has been another shipwreck in the same area that is near the dune line. It is uncovered from time to time as a result of beach erosion. It remains entombed there with the idea that covering it with sand is the best conservation”.
Another question I have is who owns the wreck and what is being done to preserve it? I understand it is not in the state park and it is certainly not embedded; It will probably be washed back out to sea where the surf will break it apart further scattering and destroying it.
-Bill Seliger
 

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Diver_Down

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The partial hull is still there as of today. FPAN and LAMP have tethered it with ropes/straps to anchors embedded in the sand to keep it from washing back out. This seems to have worked in the short term, but it won't last. They tried to get heavy equipment to move it, but the equipment got stuck. A group from South Florida will be mapping it with lasers today to render digital models. There is supposed to be another effort to move it up the beach out of the tidal zone, but unless they use some sort of tandem winches anchored on A1A, those efforts will likely fail also. The sand from Vilano north to Mickler's Landing is a loose, coarse, shelly sand and items tend to sink whether it is a tourists ring or heavy machinery. Sadly, what will likely happen is that it will be left to drift back out to sea as there will be limited funds to address the matter.

The best way to recover it would be to strap it together and pull it out to sea. Suspend it with lift bags until it can be tethered to a barge. Then move it down to St. Augustine's Inlet where heavy machinery should be able to operate from the City Marina or the Usina boat ramp to hoist it from the water.

The question of where did it come from - well that area of the coast was the I-95 of shipping. St. Augustine, St. Elena, Fernandina, etc. But one of the clues that hasn't been published that I'm aware of is the presence of copper sheathing for the hull lining with bronze spikes. It would not surprise me if it is earlier than expected. Chuck Meade and Brandon Burke of LAMP keep putting it out in the media that they believe that it is from the 19th century. I thinking they are deliberately misleading the public as making it seem that it is not as old some will think that it is less important. I was thinking last night and have to dig up some old threads, but it could be from the 1641 fleet. There is a thread in this forum from the user "Hobbit" that has a thread titled 1641 Fleet. The prevailing thought is that this fleet came to rest on this same stretch of coast.


Update from the other thread provided by AU_Dreamers regarding the sheathing: The use of copper sheathing was apparently used from the earliest date 1778 by the French; 1770 by the English; and 1810 by the Spanish. Also, FPAN has provided more information and noted the presence of circular saw marks on wood. If it was US origin, then the earliest use of the steam powered circular saw was 1813. So apparently dreams of Spanish fleets will have to rest at least as it pertains to this wreck.
 

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huntsman53

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I seems to me that they could bolt enough pieces of Roofing Tin together, dig out underneath the wreckage on the high water side (towing side) and slide the tin underneath, then have a couple of Tow Trucks with long lines winch the wreckage onto the tin. Once on the tin, the Tow Trucks should hook onto the tin as well and winch both the Roofing Tin and wreckage out as one piece. The Roofing Tin will act as and should make a great skid for removing the wreckage from the beach and possible loss back to the ocean.
 

ropesfish

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Really only one way to get it done quickly- Helo lift https://www.fairlifts.com/construction-helicopters/helicopter-lifts/jacksonville/
Only one way to get it done safely - MOBRO Marine, Inc.
The challenge is going to be to stabilize it well enough that there is something left to study after you pick it up.
So...I hope someone is doing a 3D photo record and maybe a 3D scan of the wreck with lots of closeup pictures with measurements...Honestly, if you have a 3D scan and samples of the wood and the metals, you have most of what is needed for study, I would think.
As a last ditch effort if they cannot drag or lift it off the beach, the folks studying the remains could tag it with a few buoys on Dyneema lines with some chafe guards and a couple of GPS tracking devices when it washes out and either recover it after the ocean takes it back, or track it to see how it moves.
It will be interesting to watch what happens.
 

ivan salis

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the "treenail" type wooden dowels seen in the channel 4 news video are old school type ship building (going back to the 1600 era)- however if true ...-the presence of copper hull sheathing screams time frame from 1770 to civil war era (sailing vessel became "old hat" post civil war as steam vessels took over but many still survived the raise of steam ships until the early 1900's ) also if true the circular saw markings would make it post 1813 --so looking at the clues --a post 1813 era sailing vessel most likely ..if their being honest that is ...I for one do not trust LAMP worth a hoot due to past dealings with them and their anti treasure hunting bias.. please remember when archies say 19th century ..they are actually mean from 1801 to 1899 ..which normal folks would call the 18th century

of the 1641 fleet reportedly lost at 30 degrees -- roughly this area -- 5 vessels were reported as lost --4 merchant ships with no survivors and 1 patache which was found about 5 leagues ( about 13 miles at 2.6 miles per league / 15 miles if you use 3 miles per league) from shore with some survivors --so if there is a reef off shore say 13 to 15 miles out it might be worth checking out as it is just past the legal 12 mile limit as the wreck of the 1641 patache just might be there .--source BOB MARX --shipwrecks in the Americas --page 204
 

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ARC

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Copper sheathing does not "date" a wreck / ship.

That hull could have been retrofitted.
 

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ARC

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Oh and as far as where it came from... heh

That could have dislodged and bumped along bottom for a day... a week... a month... a year OR floated in from anywhere.... sheesh even cuba for all ya know.

Just because something washes ashore ... does not mean it originated anywhere near there...

We are talking about WOOD... not metals.

The idea that it came from anywhere near the spot it beached is novice in thinking.

I can tell you this much without ANY thought about it at all... It came from the south.

So IF you wanna gonna looking for the "rest" of it...

Start there and work south.
 

ivan salis

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aarc while it might not date a wreck per si as to exact date -- because as you say its earlier hull could have been retro fitted ..the ship could not have wrecked prior to copper being used as hull shealthing --so its post 1770 at least which was when copper started being used as sheathing in that way it can help tell you its no older than 1770 so yah it helps in dating it as post 1770 era
 

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ARC

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aarc while it might note date a wreck per si as to exact date -- because as you say its earlier hull could have been retro fitted ..the ship could not have wrecked prior to copper being used as hull shealthing --so its post 1770 at least which was when copper started being used as sheathing in that way it can help tell you its no older than 1770 so iyah it helps in dating it as post 1770 era

Correct... but ship itself could have been 100 years old when retrofitted.

We have ships over 250 years old now still sailing around.

One thing is for sure...

Its not part of the 1715. :)
 

ARC

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Oh... and BTW... sheathing was first used in 1740'sish... and began to see more use in 1750's.

Navy was even looking into it by 1760's.
 

ARC

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OH and...

Was first used actually... by 1710.

After being invented / suggested for use YEARS before that.
 

ARC

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Per Wikipedia "The use of copper sheathing was first suggested by Charles Perry in 1708"
 

ARC

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Also per Wikipedia ..."The first experiments with copper sheathing were made in the late 1750s: the bottoms and sides of several ships' keels and false keels were sheathed with copper plates.[cita
In 1761, the experiment was expanded, and the 32-gun frigate HMS Alarm was ordered to have her entire bottom coppered "
 

ARC

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So... per wiki... I am surprised at my memory... "nailed it" :P

:)

Anyway... yeah... "bad bottoms need a copper spanking" was the way of it for some time.
 

ARC

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Too bad the sucker did not come in with a box of some specie stuck in the timbers.

Now that would have caused a real "stir". heh

Actually... I take that back... good thing it didn't.
 

ivan salis

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well being copper was not commonly used till 1770 I tend to think 1770 as the likely "break point" on ship hulls found with copper sheath ..as in it is a post 1770 shipwreck ...which can roughly assist in pre or post 1770 era dating ...most of the Spanish treasure fleet vessels were pre 1770 era so not copper bottomed for the most part--the new spain flota ( mexico) stopped in 1789 and the gallones de terra firme (south America) in 1740 ... for treasure ships think --lead hull sheathing for the most part
 

ARC

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Like I said before... this ship could have been MANY years old before receiving a copper bottom.

But how old ?

Was it applied during its construction / birth... ?

OR later whilst IN "berth". ?
 

ARC

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This ship could have been built anytime.

Copper bottom only dictates... a copper bottom. :)
 

ARC

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We know that that it at least "lived / sailed" during the time when the practice of sheathing was taking place.
 

ARC

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Sheesh could have been built in year 1700... and perished in 1800 for all we know.

Construction is a "part" of the puzzle...

Only finding the resting place / rest of her... would conclusively (you hope) narrow it down to an exact time.

That's why the bell is so sought after.

That almost always nails the time down.
 

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