sunken Manila galleons 1575-1806

[renantagum30]

how is this post gonna be relayed to tom in ca if my comment towards him is going to be deleted in a matter of minutes?

sometimes, a rebuke or polite rebuff to another's behavior is proper when the said move is designed to tell him the truth. sometimes, the truth hurts but it does not mean it is impolite or an improper attack on one's person. it is just made to ferret out the truth. but it is sad when the moderator deletes an honest opinion towards Tom in Ca's behavior.

 

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[XLV]

Renantagum 30 whatever u like to add to this thread i like to hear being your from the far south of this trade route ...and tom has P.T.M.S so everybody has to go easy on him and just understand ...i know u have wasted lots of time and money like me hoping to find treasure and the more knowledge the closer we get .... i still have hope one day ill find that pot of gold

 

[renantagum30]

yes sir. its ok. i have heard of so many sunken treasures near our place. but with so many rumors, i have no way of determining whether it is true or not. it is somewhere near davao occidental areas (malita , don marcelino, jose abad santos, and surrounding environments).

anyway, i expect to be banned anytime from now.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... anyway, i expect to be banned anytime from now.

renantagum30 : You will be happy to know that I read all your recent added posts to this thread.

And no, I don't think they should be deleted by a mod. Even though I'm the target of them, and even though I disagree.

Please, by all means, if you can cite a post where I was violating a rule, please link it. But seriously, if you define "irritating" or "impolite", as anything that disagrees with your view, then TONS of posts would get deleted daily, all the time. That's the purpose of a forum, is to toss out pro & con views after all. If the source of your being irritated is that someone has shown an alternate notion that you don't like, then ... that alone is not necessarily violating rules.

 

[enrada]

Stop highjacking a very interesting thread(Manila Galleons) with your useless dribble. Why do you think South Sea mariner wanted to leave Treasurenet?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... useless dribble. ...

I take it that you thought post # 16 was "useless dribble". Right ? If so, I apologize for that tone. I was repeating back to you, what I was reading that you wrote. But yes, I can see how it was rather strong. I could have worded it better to express a doubt.

 

[xaos]

The VOC and the Dutch quest for silver.

The first Dutch expedition set sail for the East Indies in 1595 to access spices directly from Asia. When it made a 400% profit on its return, other Dutch expeditions soon followed. Recognising the potential of the East Indies trade, the Dutch government amalgamated the competing companies into the United East India Company (Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie or VOC).

The VOC was granted a charter to wage war, build fortresses, and make treaties across Asia. A capital was established in Batavia (now Jakarta), which became the center of the VOC's Asian trading network.
To their original monopolies on nutmeg, peppers, cloves and cinnamon, the company and later colonial administrations introduced non-indigenous cash crops like coffee, tea, cacao, tobacco, rubber, sugar and opium, and safeguarded their commercial interests by taking over surrounding territory.

The flow of foreign money was greatly diminished due to fighting between Spain and the Dutch and English. The Spanish rulers tried to have the silver of the Americas brought directly to Spain instead of being exported to the Ming Empire. This raised the price of silver sharply.

Then in 1639, a Japanese Shogun limited foreign imports as part of his isolationist policy. This further limited the empire's trade and contributed to the Ming Empire's monetary crisis. The value of silver jumped markedly. This reduced the profit margin in the flow of Spice to Europe.

By the year 1800 the English East India Company was shipping more than 23 million pounds of tea annually. Since the Chinese were not interested in English goods, a terrible trade imbalance existed. This deficit was nonetheless a flow of silver bullion out of England and into China.
Silver, minted by the Spaniards in their new territories in the Americas eventually travels across the Pacific, through Manila, and into China as the commodity the Europeans can trade for the goods they seek from China (the Spanish or "Mexican dollar").

China becomes a "sink" for silver.
Not having silver, and wanting to gain control, the English East India company introduces opium to China. By 1830, over 50% of trade is paid for with Opium. China becomes an exporter of silver to pay for the Opium, English have their tea, and destroy the Chinese market.


Keep in mind that the Spice bought in China and the East sold in Europe for 100 times the purchase price, not 100% ...given that silver was already at a 2 times value than Europe, you can see why the trade was so lucrative, and back to the original post, why there would be no silver coming on the return trip.


More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies

 

[renantagum30]

yes. southsea mariner was a very good resource person on this thread. and suddenly here comes the all knowing tom always criticizing and always acting like an expert in all fields including ship wreck recovery. southsea mariner was not a keyboard warrior like our all time expert tom in ca here but southseamariner was an actual practitioner in marine industry and keeps on hearing actual stories about shipwreck recovery.

HERE IS THE LAST POST OF SOUTHSEA MARINER.

Hola Tom - REFERRING TO TOM IN CA

To everyone on site. Many thanks to those who has made this site interesting to read. However I think it time for me to call it quits and go.- OHHH. WHAT MADE SOUTHSEA MARINER QUIT AND GO AWAY? me too. i expect to be banned in this forum but before i bid goodbye, i want to tell more about tom in ca about the disruptive behavior that has wreck havoc to those who might want to post here. while we want to post here and share stories and ask for advices, we dread the minute when THE ALL TIME EXPERT TOM IN CA WILL AGAIN enter the topic you posted.

My qualifications is master mariner only. However over many years I have had contact with people how was very successful at what they did as professional savors. However my capacity I was only as charter skipper only. Nothing more and nothing less. As I said to you before I am not or never have been a treasure hunter or most likely never will be. However I do find them fascinating. I thought I could contribute in the little capacity I know. However it appears it is going to be an ongoing issue with you. YES. TOM IN CA IS ACTING LIKE AN EXPERT AND IS COMING STRONG TO ALL WHO POSTS ON THIS FORUM, acting like a treasure hunting expert, and making you look like a liar in all the member;s post.

southseamariner says it appears HIS QUALIFICATION (of southseamiariner) KEEPS TO BE AN ONGOING ISSUE WITH TOM IN CA. IN ALL of southseamariners POST in all forum, TOM IN CA IS always THERE

Your reaction and long rambling monologue says "plenty" about yourself. (ohhh. southseamariner says your rambling against so many members here tells something about TOM IN CA- now the moderator should take notice on this statement. southseamariner says tom in ca keeps on giving rambling monologues against so many members here. why is he not disciplined here?).

While it appears you have stalking me across the forums (southseamariner is accusing you tom of stalking him across the forums. actually, southseamariner feels tom in ca is stalking him , but in reality, tom in ca is like stalking to everyone here on this forum, criticising and downgrading and demeaning everybody here. i feel bad about southseamariner feeling being stalked by tom in ca. actually , there are so many here who feels being stalked across the forums by tom in ca. but its not only southseamariner, me, and others, but there are so many people who shares the same feeling. .

You drove me off Yamashita forum (oh no. southseamariner is direcdtly accusing tom in ca that tom in ca is the single big reason why he is leaving yamashita forum).

I post else where your up my ass again. Are you in love with me or do have some beef with me ( oh... its not only southseamariner who feels like this. almost all of us who are posting in this forum? it seems tom in ca has a way of irritating everybody who shares information and knowledge here, and when you are trying to get some knowledge, tom in ca keeps on creating chaos in a forum and like this manila galleon forum which is very interesting, tom in ca is again attacking southsea mariner, thereby destroying the beautiful flow of this forum. but im also destroying this forum with the hope of correcting tom in ca's behavior. i am waiting for myself to be banned just to make a change. i really cannot understand why a mod keeps on deleting comments like this and they delete it in a few minutes only.

What really annoys me is the way you write. (yes. i agree. tom in ca keeps on retorting and rebuking you like he is an expert and practitioner in the field. tom in ca is a negativist in everything. hey tom in ca. we are not scammers and liars. but you want to feel like we are scammers and liars. )

You might be nice guy in person but you come across as pumped up egotistical condescending know it all wanting talk down to people. (i agree. tom in ca keeps on wanting to take down people. )

Either you do it intentionally for the love of an needless argument or you use forums for a power trip you do not have in real life. ( i really cannot judge. but i always agree with southseamariner. tom in ca has this behavior of power trip. in short, tom in ca acts like an expert in everything. nitpicking your statement and telling that there is something inconsistent with your statement, that there is lie, and everything. why would the moderator delete this comment when all i do is bring up the bad and destructive behavior of tom in ca towards the members of treasurenet.).

Its really grating and painful....Pain I do no have time for this crap because seriously I have life.

I suggest you get one too.

Adios

 

[renantagum30]

this will be my last statement on this forum. i dont want to hijack again this wonderful topic about manila galleon. my apology for all those who want to read about manila galleon. i just want to correct tom in ca , and the statement i read about southsea mariner that he is leaving treasure net (or yamashita forum alone) tells of a story that tom in ca has a disruptive behavior on treasurenet. com. i cannot find any other member telling that direct to tom in ca. so i am raising that issue on manila galleon forum just to make an awareness.

that will be my last statement on this manila forum.

i am very sorry. other members can post again and share on this manila forum ( i hope without the disruptive bheavior of tom in ca).

i really take offense of what the moderator is doing on this forum, deleting comments against tom in ca . its a one-sided affair. when tom in ca tells something bad about the members like southsea mariner, his comment against southseamariner is not deleted. and my comment against tom in ca is deleted in a few minutes. that is not a good thing to do. we should be all treated fairly. so for this moderator, i am willing to be banned from treasurenet.

 

[Salvor6]

yes. southsea mariner was a very good resource person on this thread. and suddenly here comes the all knowing tom always criticizing and always acting like an expert in all fields including ship wreck recovery. southsea mariner was not a keyboard warrior like our all time expert tom in ca here but southseamariner was an actual practitioner in marine industry and keeps on hearing actual stories about shipwreck recovery.

HERE IS THE LAST POST OF SOUTHSEA MARINER.

Hola Tom - REFERRING TO TOM IN CA

To everyone on site. Many thanks to those who has made this site interesting to read. However I think it time for me to call it quits and go.- OHHH. WHAT MADE SOUTHSEA MARINER QUIT AND GO AWAY? me too. i expect to be banned in this forum but before i bid goodbye, i want to tell more about tom in ca about the disruptive behavior that has wreck havoc to those who might want to post here. while we want to post here and share stories and ask for advices, we dread the minute when THE ALL TIME EXPERT TOM IN CA WILL AGAIN enter the topic you posted.

My qualifications is master mariner only. However over many years I have had contact with people how was very successful at what they did as professional savors. However my capacity I was only as charter skipper only. Nothing more and nothing less. As I said to you before I am not or never have been a treasure hunter or most likely never will be. However I do find them fascinating. I thought I could contribute in the little capacity I know. However it appears it is going to be an ongoing issue with you. YES. TOM IN CA IS ACTING LIKE AN EXPERT AND IS COMING STRONG TO ALL WHO POSTS ON THIS FORUM, acting like a treasure hunting expert, and making you look like a liar in all the member;s post.

southseamariner says it appears HIS QUALIFICATION (of southseamiariner) KEEPS TO BE AN ONGOING ISSUE WITH TOM IN CA. IN ALL of southseamariners POST in all forum, TOM IN CA IS always THERE

Your reaction and long rambling monologue says "plenty" about yourself. (ohhh. southseamariner says your rambling against so many members here tells something about TOM IN CA- now the moderator should take notice on this statement. southseamariner says tom in ca keeps on giving rambling monologues against so many members here. why is he not disciplined here?).

While it appears you have stalking me across the forums (southseamariner is accusing you tom of stalking him across the forums. actually, southseamariner feels tom in ca is stalking him , but in reality, tom in ca is like stalking to everyone here on this forum, criticising and downgrading and demeaning everybody here. i feel bad about southseamariner feeling being stalked by tom in ca. actually , there are so many here who feels being stalked across the forums by tom in ca. but its not only southseamariner, me, and others, but there are so many people who shares the same feeling. .

You drove me off Yamashita forum (oh no. southseamariner is direcdtly accusing tom in ca that tom in ca is the single big reason why he is leaving yamashita forum).

I post else where your up my ass again. Are you in love with me or do have some beef with me ( oh... its not only southseamariner who feels like this. almost all of us who are posting in this forum? it seems tom in ca has a way of irritating everybody who shares information and knowledge here, and when you are trying to get some knowledge, tom in ca keeps on creating chaos in a forum and like this manila galleon forum which is very interesting, tom in ca is again attacking southsea mariner, thereby destroying the beautiful flow of this forum. but im also destroying this forum with the hope of correcting tom in ca's behavior. i am waiting for myself to be banned just to make a change. i really cannot understand why a mod keeps on deleting comments like this and they delete it in a few minutes only.

What really annoys me is the way you write. (yes. i agree. tom in ca keeps on retorting and rebuking you like he is an expert and practitioner in the field. tom in ca is a negativist in everything. hey tom in ca. we are not scammers and liars. but you want to feel like we are scammers and liars. )

You might be nice guy in person but you come across as pumped up egotistical condescending know it all wanting talk down to people. (i agree. tom in ca keeps on wanting to take down people. )

Either you do it intentionally for the love of an needless argument or you use forums for a power trip you do not have in real life. ( i really cannot judge. but i always agree with southseamariner. tom in ca has this behavior of power trip. in short, tom in ca acts like an expert in everything. nitpicking your statement and telling that there is something inconsistent with your statement, that there is lie, and everything. why would the moderator delete this comment when all i do is bring up the bad and destructive behavior of tom in ca towards the members of treasurenet.).

Its really grating and painful....Pain I do no have time for this crap because seriously I have life.

I suggest you get one too.

Adios

Let's cut this crap and get back to the topic of Manila galleons.

 

[Salvor6]

this will be my last statement on this forum.

That's what you said your last statement!

 

[renantagum30]

ok. im sorry. i want out also from treasurenetforum also like southseamariner. please teach me how to deactive and erase an account here.

 

[enrada]

Just the facts

Tom in CA
12,812 posts

enough said?

 

[XLV]

please get back to the topic and just ignore the commits u dont like ............i hope your happy coin surfer now u caused a mutiny on this thread

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... YES. TOM IN CA IS ACTING LIKE AN EXPERT AND IS COMING STRONG...

renantagum30 : Re-read your post #48. Then ask yourself: "Who is the one coming on strong?"

Yes I have come down on the side of opinion against legends and certain wands. I'm sorry that has ruffled your feathers. Please don't not construe things that dissent from your opinion (ie.: a contrary view) as being ... of necessity "mean", etc.... If I did come across wrongly, I apologize. I was trying to get people to think deeply about stuff that can be subconsciously so-easy-to-believe.

And I'll be the first to add: I could be wrong about treasure legends that I think are just ghost-stories gone awry. And as for wands, I'm open to proof. Again, I'm sorry for rubbing you wrong

 

[XLV]

theres over 500 wreck sites in south east asia before modern times...... this is a fact not a legend ....and some did carry silver or gold to there watery graves ....i totally understand your attacks if someone making statements that are false ....i this thread no one has misstated any facts and these attacks are a carry over from other threads so please get back to the subject

 

[renantagum30]

are there any galleon trades here in the davao gulf? and davao occidental? and gensan?

 

[enrada]

After 4 years of research into Manila Galleons and finding 55 potential MG wreck locations I can say with a bit of certainty that you have none in Davao Gulf. That does not mean that you don't have wrecks with porcelain or other wrecks of value.

 

[KANACKI]

Hello All

While indeed many ships fall part on coral reefs destroying their cargoes of porcelain. Some ships sank in open water with cargo's relatively intact. You can see for your self in the pictures below.

The Story of the Santa Cruz Junk. found in the Philippines.

The trade between China and South-East Asia reached its peak during the Ming Dynasty in the first half of the 15th century, when the Chinese emperors were engaged in expansionist activities. From the middle of the 15th century onwards, however, China began to isolate itself and private overseas trade was banned. Despite the threat of death penalty for smuggling, illegal trade continued to flourish. The Santa Cruz junk was lost during this period of time.

The Discovery

The Santa Cruz junk was discovered by surprise in April 2001 by dynamite fishermen who found pieces of porcelain in their nets and started to dive for the valuable cargo. Several fishermen died or were injured because of their insufficient diving experience. The National Museum of the Philippines became aware of the discovery when historical artefacts started to appear in antique shops. They decided to perform an archaeological excavation on the wreck in cooperation with Franck Goddio and his team as soon as possible in order to stop the plundering and destruction of the wreck.

View attachment 1680711





While many shipwreck indeed was smashed on coral reefs. Many sunk because of other reasons. While culturally Ceramics is not so much an collectors item in United States. The rich in china is spending up big in buying collectible porcelain.

You can see the link below

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/sothebys-ceramics/index.htm

So Ceramics can fetch huge prices.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Hello All

In the 16th century, the Spaniards developed a thriving trade network with Chinese, Japanese and Malay merchants. The result was the establishment of the world’s first world trade route, linking Europe, Asia and the Americas (Manila-Acapulco galleon trade). Unlike the Spaniards, the British at that time did not have the full economic potential of such a trading arrangement in East Asia and had failed to establish a timely trading position of their own in that part of the world. Consequently, they were forced to establish their facilities in Canton, which was ruled by the Chinese.

In the first half of the 18th century, Alexander Dalrymple, an employee of the famous British Honourable East India Company (HEIC) travelled throughout Asia, with the main objective of facilitating trade. In 1760, he made a proposal to the governing body of the HEIC in London, to found a free port in the territory of the Spice Islands on the island of Balambangan, as he had befriended the main Sultan, who resided on the island of Jolo. On the way to Jolo, the lead ship, The Griffin, hit a rock and sank. The crew was saved by the other ships, which then succeeded with the plan and founded the free port.

The British free port did not become very successful, serving as a bridge between China and England. After approximately ten years, the HEIC trading post in Balambangan decided to invest the bulk of their traded goods in the purchase of huge amounts of porcelain, spices, silk, tea and other goods in Canton and planned to ship part of it to Balambangan and the rest to London.

The HEIC ship The Royal Captain, a vessel weighing 780 tons, was used in 1773 to transport the goods from Canton to Balambangan. On the way to Balambangan, The Royal Captain hit a shoal and was lost. The captain and most of the crew were able to rescue some of the Company’s treasures and eventually made it to Balambangan. The economic loss, however, was great and it endangered the economic development of the trading post. Finally, the HEIC had to close the post after having been attacked by pirates.

Here is some pictures of Griffen 1761 shipwreck below.





As those 2 shipwreck highlight. Its not inconceivable that some Manila Galleons remain relatively intact ie: those not driven onto coral reef but sunk because of handling or poor maintenance. However that said marine salvage is complex and expensive process.

Kanacki