Spanish Manila Galleons

[xaos]

Starting new thread from information on a different thread..

The Manila Galleon Trade Route was the major route traveled by Spanish galleons from 1565 to 1815 across the Pacific connecting Acapulco in New Spain (Mexico) to the east and Manila, Philippines in the west. The galleons carried spices, porcelains and other luxury goods from Asia in return for silver from the Americas.

Route of the Manila Galleons



Route to the Americas, typical cargo:

East Indies "gold"

Chinese silks and gauzes, Cantonese crepes, velvets, taffetas, damask and brocades
Stockings, cloaks, robes, skirts, bodices and kimonos
Bed coverings and tapestries
Chinese table linens and handkerchiefs
Church vestments made in China
Cotton and cotton goods from India
Persian and Chinese rugs
Jewelry of gold set with diamonds, rubies and pearls
Jewel studded sword hilts
Alligator teeth, some mounted with gold
Women’s combs
Fans, ivory castanets, copper cuspidors (spittoon)
Articles of ivory, jade and jasper
Sandalwood
Earthenware and porcelain
Manila cigars
Tea from China
Spices (clove, cinnamon, pepper, nutmeg)
Musk, borax red lead, camphor
Animals
Slaves

Since we really dont find these items on Spanish wrecks going back to the Europe, I am not sure they were that popular...

Jewelry of gold set with diamonds, rubies and pearls
Jewel studded sword hilts
Alligator teeth, some mounted with gold

Spice and silk would have been the most valuable cargo. The beeswax for candles, perhaps popular as well.

 

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[Madmox]

I’m in. Fact: I think I might rather recover intact Ming or Qing dynasty porcelain or ivory than silver. That being said spices or silk would almost certainly not survive.

And I would make the counter argument that because you do not find the treasure type items on the trips back to Europe that would indicate that they well could have been very popular and the inventory was completely traded for silver and thus none remained for the voyage back.

 

[Vox veritas]

Starting new thread from information on a different thread..

The Manila Galleon Trade Route was the major route traveled by Spanish galleons from 1565 to 1815 across the Pacific connecting Acapulco in New Spain (Mexico) to the east and Manila, Philippines in the west. The galleons carried spices, porcelains and other luxury goods from Asia in return for silver from the Americas.

Route of the Manila Galleons

View attachment 1686004

Route to the Americas, typical cargo:

East Indies "gold"

Chinese silks and gauzes, Cantonese crepes, velvets, taffetas, damask and brocades
Stockings, cloaks, robes, skirts, bodices and kimonos
Bed coverings and tapestries
Chinese table linens and handkerchiefs
Church vestments made in China
Cotton and cotton goods from India
Persian and Chinese rugs
Jewelry of gold set with diamonds, rubies and pearls
Jewel studded sword hilts
Alligator teeth, some mounted with gold
Women’s combs
Fans, ivory castanets, copper cuspidors (spittoon)
Articles of ivory, jade and jasper
Sandalwood
Earthenware and porcelain
Manila cigars
Tea from China
Spices (clove, cinnamon, pepper, nutmeg)
Musk, borax red lead, camphor
Animals
Slaves

Since we really dont find these items on Spanish wrecks going back to the Europe, I am not sure they were that popular...

Jewelry of gold set with diamonds, rubies and pearls
Jewel studded sword hilts
Alligator teeth, some mounted with gold

Spice and silk would have been the most valuable cargo. The beeswax for candles, perhaps popular as well.

And Chinese porcelain (Ming until 1640)

 

[enrada]

And thus the reason why Spain put a limit on the amount of silver that Manila Galleons could carry. Too much silver was going to Manila and not Spain and nothing to show for it in Spain. Salvaged cargo on E to W galleons proved that Spain's limits on silver were ignored by a large margin. Central America was trading silver for gold jewelry and worked gold religious items which could be taken back to Spain without paying the Royal Fifth. Ever wonder why it is so hard to negotiate a shipwreck permit in a Spanish speaking country without having to pay a kickback or deal with corruption!!

 

[xaos]

And Chinese porcelain (Ming until 1640)

I get that, but in the day, porcelain was not that popular in value as a trading item, like spice was. I see little reference to Chinese porcelain being found in South America, nor shipped back to Europe.
In the day Spain was upset that about 25% of the silver was going back on the manila fleets, and there was a premium in Europe on silver, as the Asian market used silver not gold as the means of payment.

I think I might rather recover intact Ming or Qing dynasty porcelain or ivory than silver.

Of the shipwrecks found to date, I see little evidence of porcelain. There is spice and metal works, but no plateware.

Given this, I really dont think these wrecks are far more valuable that the Atocha fleet.

This was a very successful trade route, marked by very, very few wrecks on the Americas side.

 

[Madmox]

That’s because there were far easier routes to getting Chinese wares to Europe. By this time the Silk Road has been in heavy use for almost 2000 years. The spice, porcelain , and were feeding the appetites of the Mexican and South American wealthy and ruling class. Then the silver and gold from this trade was taken from South America back to Spain.

 

[Madmox]

I would argue that there may not be fewer Spanish wrecks, merely that fewer have ever been found due to far fewer people looking and the reasons I stated previously.

 

[xaos]

Again, I would argue that spice, silk, and mercury dominated the cargo.

There of course may be some Ming Dynasty porcelain, but I have not heard of anyone recovering anything by shards from the West Coast. Seems like most of the ships made it.

 

[Vox veritas]

In the Nueva España fleet (from San Juan de Ulua) were transported items from China. I checked some cargo records and there are articles from China.

 

[xaos]

From the beeswax wreck, the Santo Cristo de Burgos

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Researchers also found a partial cargo manifest, including 2.5 tons of mercury that may help with identification of the wreck, and were able to link the markings on some of the beeswax blocks found in Oregon to shippers in the Philippines part of the galleon trade.

​

For the most part, on the West Coast, the ships were bashed against the rocks, not flounder out in the sea from such events as Hurricanes. This makes them difficult to find/recover, and little left to recover.
In addition, in 1700, there was a massive earthquake coupled with a Tsunami, which has made the location difficult to determine the specific location of the source of many shipwreck artefacts found along this coast.

 

[A2coins]

That would be a dream find and hunt

 

[Madmox]

For the most part, on the West Coast, the ships were bashed against the rocks, not flounder out in the sea from such events as Hurricanes. This makes them difficult to find/recover, and little left to recover.
In addition, in 1700, there was a massive earthquake coupled with a Tsunami, which has made the location difficult to determine the specific location of the source of many shipwreck artefacts found along this coast.

That is definitely one common type wreck we have. The other (at least in Northern California) are ships ripping their bottoms out on submerged pinnacles and subsequently sinking like rocks. Especially in an era before efficient mechanized pumps.