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Thread: The history of Tayopa

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  1. #31
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    good evening snake: Getting any answers so far ? I will be posting a lot more as time goes by. Put in your 2 cents on any part, ask away, but be warned ahead of time, "X" will not be revealerd or Beth will skin me alive. If I can't answer your questions, or those that any one else may post, I still have a problem.

    Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

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  2. #32
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Don Jose', Dueno el Tayopa wrote
    Put in your 2 cents on any part, ask away, but be warned ahead of time, "X" will not be revealerd or Beth will skin me alive.
    ...you forgot the rest of that statement; "...With a dull deer antler" <the Seneca preferred implement for flaying captives>

    Kidding of course

    Don Jose, we have been filling in the early and middle part of this history, but have not touched on the late part. One of the things I have been wanting to ask you for some time is, did you find any evidence of recent visitors to Tayopa, the very first time you saw it? (As in old campfire rings, etc) Anything that would be before your arrival, but later than say 1790? I was wondering if any other treasure hunter had been in Tayopa, perhaps without even realizing it. <Or scalp hunter, like Kirker> Thank you in advance;
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  3. #33
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Good morning Ladies & Gentlemen: Oro de Tayopa, you asked -->One of the things I have been wanting to ask you for some time is, did you find any evidence of recent visitors to Tayopa, the very first time you saw it?
    *****************

    Yes of course, the main rainy season trails from Ariaschi, Yoquivo, and north to Moris cross just above El Paramo. The place where Dobie 'claims ' that he was camped. This is where a mule train joined them for the night and shared roasting corn, and is prob within 400 meters of the Northen edge of El Paramo. This the south, Eastern edge of the sierra de Obscuro. The southern Sierra Obscuro is where that huge Grizz lived. Also there is a new lumber mill overlooking the Tayopa canyon, perhaps 5 -600 meters from the small church site on top of Tayopa, as indicated in Dobie's map above..

    Also the proposed camp site, as mentioned, lies approx. 400 meters to where the Arriero supposedly blew his cow horn listening for the returned 3 echos. This is also correct, see Dobie's drawn map above. If he blew down into the Paramo, the sound would go straight down and be reflected back by the angled cliff, it would also be reflected to the right into the Tayopa canyon where it would also be reflected to the head of the Tayopa canyon by that angled cliff, while being reflected back into the Paramo and the horn blower. the sound wave that was directed of the head of the Tayopa canyon would return the same way, This would give the three returns at different intervals as mentioned, also the time interval would also tend to modify the frequency.

    Since this is on a still well traveled, rainy season, animal trail, it is used quite a bit, and naturally, this campsite is often used since it is at the top of a long high climb. It is a flat area about 200 x 400 meters with fire wood readily available and some water.
    ================================================== =============================================


    You also asked --> I was wondering if any other treasure hunter had been in Tayopa, perhaps without even realizing it.

    ***************

    I haven't the slightrest doubt that many have. As you mentioned , the key is realizing it. There was no large portal, it was covered. As for dump ore, no problem, it was merely shunted down into the narrow canyon floor where it was quickly covered by the Heavy summer rains and hurricanes that periodically cross over the area. As for the main workings, they were two huge stope areas, one above the other. Apparently there was very little dump rock to dispose of, most was processing or shipping ore of Ag---- Silver..

    I will state this Right now, please don't ask me how I know this with a still closed up mine, I am not at liberty to discuss this on a public media, but will show & prove this you when we meet.
    ================================================== =====================================*


    You also asked --> scalp hunter, like Kirker> Thank you in advance;
    ****************
    Frankly I haven't the fainted idea if they ever did , but am very sceptical since the present data suggests that they were far to the North and East of the tayopa area.
    ================================================== ======================================


    You also asked--> what about ruins/foundations of Indio houses etc
    ****************
    The picture of the Indian's hut above, was built on the basic area of the Workers of Tayopa. That was down on the flats below and south of the Tayopa canyon.
    ================================================== =======================================


    You also asked --> it seems like Tayopa was repeatedly attacked and abandoned several times, but could this be simply a "connecting the dots" where they are not, as in one Tayopa is attacked and abandoned, then a "new" Tayopa is later attacked and then abandoned etc?
    ****************

    As far as I know at this point, Tayopa was abandoned / closed up in the 1600's and never reopened. But the area was exploited when they Jesuits returned
    ================================================== =======================================


    Oro you posted --> I think I am going to have to start buying some topo maps for Mexico,
    ************
    Save your money, the area is too broken up for the normal lines to be drawn, they are just dashed lines. See post no. 26 above with the Tayopa property lines drawn on it, that is a topo map of the area.
    ================================================== =======================================


    You posted --> I have quite a time trying to convert the Jesuit longitude (measured only easterly from Tenerife in the Canary Islands) to our modern longitudes
    ***************
    Remember they didn't have the accurate timepieces needed to do this, they had to go by noon day shots. Even so, they did remarkably well.
    ================================================== ======================================


    You asked --> Is there a record of all the 'official' Reals?
    ***************

    Yes, but Tayopa never was an official Real, if it had been, it would never have been lost.
    ================================================== =======================================


    You posted --> This timeline I am tentatively identifying Tayopa #1 with a place also called San Juan del Rio, and Toapora.
    *************

    Tayopa no. 1 was at the Guaynopita/ Guaynopa zone.

    K, this will do for this morning my friends. Feel free to ask what ever you are curious about or question.

    Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*





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  4. #34
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    HI again , side thingie. On that last illfated trip looking for the iron door, which is not the main Tayopa workings, they camped about 100 ft up from the bottom of the canyon floor to eliminate any possible danger from a flash flood. That night they all heard a peculiar noise, so my son, and the son -in-law of my friend, climbed on top of a large rock to see what or who it was..

    Soon they heard voices and many figures carrying torches appeared walking up the bottom of the Tayopa Barranca. They continued up to the northern cliff where they separated then disappeared. Both said that at first they thought that they were narcotic trafficantes looking for them.

    Since they were unarmed they were a bit scared. Everyone heard the noise, yet in the morning, there were NO tracks

    OK, OK, were they the ghosts of the former Indian miners going to work ?? I have no idea.

    Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*
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  5. #35
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    El Tropical Tramp wrote
    OK, OK, were they the ghosts of the former Indian miners going to work ?? I have no idea.
    That is interesting - especially considering the legend that "ghost miners" were sometimes heard deep in the earth, still mining long after death. The incident reminds me of a similar that Beth & I had, while hunting coons late one full-moon night in a rather un-inhabited valley called Pratt Hollow; we could clearly see the flashlights and two figures walking through the woods, so went over to see who it was and "poof" there was no one; no tracks, nothing. Still don't know what that was, ghost coon hunters?

    That covered mine opening, do you think it was deliberately covered, or possibly a natural landslide? Either way could make it difficult to re-open it, depends on how deep and how big the rocks are. I look forward to reading more.
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  6. #36
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Good morning Oro de Tayopa: You asked -->? That covered mine opening, do you think it was deliberately covered, or possibly a natural landslide
    *****************

    It was deliberately done, both on the lower and upper accesses.

    No other questions?

    Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*
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  7. #37
    us
    Nov 2004
    Edwards,Missouri
    MXT - DeLeon - Gamma 6000
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Hey Jose de La Mancha,do I need to apoligize for including you in,http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,335386.0.html ?

  8. #38
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    El gringo de la Mancha wrote
    No other questions?
    Good one amigo!

    There are several that I would like to ask, but cannot in an open forum; but to stay within what is 'safe' to say publicly, how about this - were any of the seventeen hardrock mines open? Have you entered any of these, if they are open? Thank you in advance;
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  9. #39
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    HI Oro de Tayopa: You asked if there were any other mines open.

    **************
    No, not at that time, but the Indians up there have sent down word that a few were finally opened by the last Hurricane. They are willing to show them to me. it is just a mass of collapsed, rotten, portal timbers etc, they are afraid to enter.

    Can we convince Beth to----- Oro?

    Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*
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  10. #40
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Hola amigos,

    Don Jose, you have mentioned a conspiracy that was suspected in the 1767 Jesuit expulsion. I am not sure this is directly relevant to the history of Tayopa, but here is a tidbit;

    Those Jesuits who remained captive in Spain for several years as scapegoats included many of the Sonora members of the Society. Eight German Jesuits, former missionaries in Lower California, sailed out of Cadiz (Spain) on a Dutch ship the day before the promulgation of a royal order which would have kept them prisoner. Father Benno Ducrue of Munich, who reports this incident20, did not know the reason for the order, but apparently the California Jesuits were believed to have traded with the Dutch.21

    <footnote relating to this part>
    21 "A document found by Dr Engel Sluiter during his extensive research in Dutch archives, 1935-36, reveals that in 1746 two Dutch ships landed on the west coast of New Spain. "

    <Description of the Province of Sonora, Ignaz Pfefferkorn, Treutlein trans, pp 12 translators introduction>

    From the same source, also notable, considering the vast secrecy of the Spanish royal authorities in the whole expulsion operation, and Jesuit abilities in avoiding such, is this tidbit <also a footnote>

    20 "How he learned about the order at all is not revealed in his diary. <snip> Ducrue reveals the interesting fact that his group aboard the Dutch ship returned to Germany via Ostend rather than proceeding first to Italy, as most of the expulsos had to do. The idea of returning to central Europe via the Netherlands originated with some of the Jesuits who favored this route "so that we," as they put it, "could stand immediately upon disembarking on the territory of our sovereign reigning prince of the House of Austria."

    This source also explains that five (four actually) Jesuits from the island of Chiloe were also held for several years after the expulsion, in hopes of getting some incriminating evidence from them - as they were suspected of a plot to betray the island of Chiloe to the English.

    How was Father Ducrue able to learn of an order to have his group of Jesuits arrested, a day before the arrest? What a coincidence that they should travel on a Dutch ship, and wish to go to the Netherlands rather than Italy where all Jesuits were supposed to go. So that story of a Jesuit plot to betray New Spain to the Dutch is not without evidence entirely! Some very interesting things are to be found in the footnotes and margins of history it seems.
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #41
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    ***** post Oro de Tayopa. Little by little the noose is tightening.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  12. #42
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Hola amigo,
    I found a bit more concerning that accusation of a plot to betray the island of Chiloe to the English, in an English book that dates to 1746;

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6rI...page&q&f=false

    ...apparently the English were openly toying with the idea, and this book was published circa 1746, same year two Dutch ships surreptitiously landed on the west coast of New Spain. Purely coincidence I suppose. Perhaps a thorough research of this plot would turn up very 'dammin' evidence indeed.
    Roy

    Postscript; I wonder if there are any interesting documents on Tayopa in the Dutch archives?
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  13. #43
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Allo peeps, Oro de Tayopa: Perhaps you can appreciate why Tayopa has been hidden for almost 400 years, even after entering the area.

    Incidentally, the two infamous 'cerros Chapos' are at the left center of the picture. they are knife edged and cannot be seen from many angles, especially from Tayopa..

    BB, like to take a walk around down there?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tayopa canyon complex 2 @.jpg 
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  14. #44
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
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    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Dunno about BB, but I could see myself wandering around down there for a day, week or month
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  15. #45
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,692
    1471 times

    Re: The history of Tayopa

    Evening cub: Remember, those small hills are from 500 - 800 ft high. Incidentally you are looking at the location of two very large treasure sites. Just for you Cubber, the Cerros Chapos are the entry location to Tayopa. They are knife edged, when they almost disappear, you are Aligned with Tayopa.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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