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Thread: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

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  1. #31

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    PS what did you decide about those four other sources with the MA and PA mines, public, private or not at all? Thank you in any case, whatever you decide.
    Roy
    tomorrow is another day



  2. #32
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    PS what did you decide about those four other sources with the MA and PA mines, public, private or not at all? Thank you in any case, whatever you decide.
    Roy
    tomorrow is another day


    I hear ya.

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  3. #33
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    I know you said that you only need ONE good source, but to me, having at least one other source is very important; for all too often, a source could be mistaken, in error, misleading, misunderstood by the author, or even deliberately wrong for the very purpose of misleading anyone who reads it. From what I can determine, this is not as common as you might imagine; in fact right offhand I know of only a handful of sources that are guilty of falsehoods - one of which is that Holmes manuscript, which you have some faith in, apparently.

    Newspapers used to require a second source for any news report, most publishers of treasure type stories require at least two sources as a minimum for a book or story on treasures etc so it is not a wise policy to put all your faith in ONE source. Just as with the Peralta stones, and this is why I keep asking about another source to support that, for what if it were proven tomorrow, beyond ALL doubt, that the Peralta stones are a modern fraud? What would that do to your Tayopa-in-the-Superstitions theory? If you don't have other sources that support the theory - poof! It is like building a castle in the sand, if that single thread to prove it turns out to be FALSE.

    Roy

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #34
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1167 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    .... poof!

    That about says it all. All turban, no genie. But wait, all will be revealed later, right? Later ..... later ..... later.... ?
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  5. #35
    gb
    Aug 2008
    Lancs
    171
    15 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Hello Jose,

    I'm puzzled by the various measurments given here, as far as i have been able to find out a Vara was the stride of a Spanish soldier, and measures between 31 and 33 cms,

    the elbow to wrist is from what i have read a pie, the vara being based on three times this measurment,
    i found this online sometime ago,

    vara in Mexico
    In 1536 the Viceroy Don Antonio Mendoza promulgated an ordinance which established the vara as the fundamental unit of length in New Spain (which eventually included Venezuela, the West Indies, all Spanish territory north of Panama, and the Philippines). Only fragments of the ordinance survive, but those indicate: “The Mexican vara is the unit of all measures of length, the pattern and size is taken from the Castillian vara of the model of Burgos,” that is, 3 pie of the standard of Burgos.

    But sources differ on the definition of the vara in Mendoza's ordinance. Some (Canales Santos) say an ordinance of 4 July 1536 made the vara equivalent to the paso salomónico (= 5 pies of the vara castellana). If so, the vara would have been 1.377 meters, and the units of land area defined in the ordinance correspondingly larger. Others (e.g., Stampa) speak of an ordinance of 9 March 1536 with “a vara of three feet and a paso of five feet”.

    The Mexican Imperial Colonization Act of January 4, 1823, Art. 5 and 7,2 defined a series of land measures: the vara as 3 “piés geométricos,” the legua as a straight line of 5000 varas, the sitio as an area one legua on a side, the hacienda as five sitios, and the labór as one million square varas. Subsequent laws authorized the states to establish further regulations, providing they did not conflict with existing law. The Mexican states of which present-day Texas formed a part confirmed the units given above, and in 1834 the Land Law3 of the State of Coahuila and Texas added the millionada = a million square varas, thus equivalent to a labór, and (Art. 34) the ayuntamiento (a township) = 4 square legua.

    The Mexican Ordinance for Land and Sea (September 15, 1837) adopted a value of 837 millimeters for the vara, subsequently altered by a decree of 1839 to 838.1 millimeters, and then by a decree of 1844 to 838 millimeters. A regulation of February 20, 1896, implementing metric land measures under the law of 19 June 1895, gave the vara the value 0.838000 meter.

    1. Mariano Galván Rivera.
    Ordenanzas de tierras y aguas, ó sea formulario geométrico-judicial para la designació, establecimento, mensura, amojonameiento y deslinde de las poblaciones...
    Mexico, 1844.

    2. John Sayles and Henry Sayles, compilers.
    Early laws of Texas. General laws from 1836 to 1879, relating to public lands, colonial contracts, headrights, pre-emptions, grants of land to railroads and other corporations, conveyances, descent, distribution, marital rights, registration of wills, laws relating to jurisdiction, powers and procedure of courts, and all other laws of general interest. Also laws of 1731 to 1835, as found in the laws and decrees of Spain relating to land in Mexico, and of Mexico relating to colonization; laws of Coahuila and Texas; laws of Tamaulipas; colonial contracts; Spanish civil law; orders and decrees of the provisional government of Texas... Second Edition.
    St. Louis: The Gilbert Book Co., 1891.

    Volume 1, page 43.

    3. March 26, 1834, Section 1, Article 2. Reprinted in
    John Sayles and Henry Sayles, compilers.
    Early laws of Texas...Second Edition.
    St. Louis: The Gilbert Book Co., 1891.

    Volume 1, page 97.

    regards Furness

  6. #36
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,787
    1033 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Don Jose,

    "Good evening Cactus You asked about I.E., I am sorry but his identity must remain secret for a while, I hope that you understand."

    I certainly do! If you were to expose his identity prematurely, one of the scalywags on this site might be tempted to make some sort of example of him. That would probably be the end of a valuable source. I think this is a secret worth keeping away from people like bowman.

    After all, a little knowledge can be a vewy dangewous thing.

    Take care,

    Joe

  7. #37
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,341
    2771 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Good afternoon Furness; For rough field usage in the 15-1600's one can consider a vara as roughly a meter. The codo precedes the Vara as roughly 1/2 a vara. It was in a transitional phase about the time of Tayopa.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  8. #38
    gb
    Aug 2008
    Lancs
    171
    15 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Hello Jose,

    many thanks for the explanation, are the measurements on the map accurate or have you found any where perhaps the priests used rack of the eye, because that looks like pretty rough country to measure,
    OT in another post yes, i also would like to read your tales and memories i enjoy most of the sensible posts on here, and it's part of history that we didn't do at school,

    regards

    Furness,
    (John) as i realise it's not on my profile,?

  9. #39
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,341
    2771 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Good evening John: thank you for the confidence. I rather suspect that they used simple triangulation for their measurements. As you say, it certainly couldn't be paced off.

    What has tended to be passed off, and hasn't been explained. How can 7 mines be within 700 - 800 meters from the door of the church?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  10. #40
    us
    Shadow Catcher

    Jul 2006
    Too close to the border
    They went that way >>>>>>>>>>>
    116
    22 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Good evening Don Jose,

    Good evening Cactus You asked about I.E., I am sorry but his identity must remain secret for a while, I hope that you understand.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    I happen to know that "I.E." worked in lockstep with "E.G." Furthermore, whenever the subject comes up no one should use anything but their initials!

    Sincerely,

    Infosponge
    Only the shadow knows, but I know the shadow!

  11. #41
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,787
    1033 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Infosponge,

    Believe it or not, as a young man wandering the Superstitions, I actually met Mr. Gratia on a practically unknown and ancient trail that goes up the east side of Tortilla Mountain drops over into Peter's Canyon, close to Cottonwood Canyon, and snakes its way up onto Peter's Mesa.

    He was the consumate gentleman, and we sat in the shade and shared LDM stories before going our seperate ways. Even then, he was a Stone Map fan, and that is where I first heard of the Ma Pa mine, or mines.

    He told me that Jacob Waltz knew of the mine, had been there, and left a Kettle at the Ma Pa location. From that time on, the locals had called it.......The Lost Ma & Pa Kettle Mine. It remains one of the lesser known legends of the Superstition Mountains.

    Find that rusted old kettle, and you are close to the entrance to a fortune.

    Good luck,

    Joe

  12. #42
    us
    Shadow Catcher

    Jul 2006
    Too close to the border
    They went that way >>>>>>>>>>>
    116
    22 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Cactusjumper,

    Infosponge,

    Believe it or not, as a young man wandering the Superstitions, I actually met Mr. Gratia on a practically unknown and ancient trail that goes up the east side of Tortilla Mountain drops over into Peter's Canyon, close to Cottonwood Canyon, and snakes its way up onto Peter's Mesa.

    He was the consumate gentleman, and we sat in the shade and shared LDM stories before going our seperate ways. Even then, he was a Stone Map fan, and that is where I first heard of the Ma Pa mine, or mines.

    He told me that Jacob Waltz knew of the mine, had been there, and left a Kettle at the Ma Pa location. From that time on, the locals had called it.......The Lost Ma & Pa Kettle Mine. It remains one of the lesser known legends of the Superstition Mountains.

    Find that rusted old kettle, and you are close to the entrance to a fortune.

    Good luck,

    Joe
    I envy you for having met Mr. Gratia! It is well known that his knowledge was extensive, when it came to codes he knew everything from A-Z.

    There is no doubt about the Lost Ma & Pa Kettle Mine, but the one I knew about was a uranium mine. I believe the only way it will ever be found again is by using Kettle math!



    Sincerely,

    Infosponge
    Only the shadow knows, but I know the shadow!

  13. #43
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    1859 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Blindbowman, I take it that you have decided against posting those four other sources that at least mention these mines (MA and PA) in public or private? Are there really four other sources or was that a trick?

    Synchronicity is an odd thing; here I see Ma and Pa Kettle's famous Uranium mine this evening, and Beth just found our geiger counters today; maybe 'fate' is trying to tell us something?
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #44
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1167 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    Quote Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
    Good afternoon Furness; For rough field usage in the 15-1600's one can consider a vara as roughly a meter. The codo precedes the Vara as roughly 1/2 a vara. It was in a transitional phase about the time of Tayopa.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    There's no way to know which vara was used in these field measurements or any other during the time period unless you have a copy of the surveyor's field notes spelling out methods used, etc. The distances are all approximations only, based on the surveyor's on site work. His 'vara' may have been an exact copy of the Viceroy's standard, and it may have been a SWAG. Also, the manner in which the measurements were made on the ground could add a significant error - we don't know if the measurer had cordels and other rope lengths to work with, etc. All you can count on are that the measurements probably represent a number of strides made by an experienced strider.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  15. #45
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,341
    2771 times

    Re: Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

    John, that is just about as good an explanation as we can expect today. No one knows exactly.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

 
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