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Thread: El Naranjal

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  1. #16
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    Re: El Naranjal

    HOLA mi amigo, glad to see you're back!

    Cotton-picking - heck how did you find out my former occupation! ( )

    I believe your friend's report. There is NO reason not to believe the mine exists, in fact there are records of the production still extant in archives. A sample of the ORE now that I have never been able to get my hands on. However I have not ever been to the region to look, and you know how old prospectors are about selling, trading or parting with their ore samples!

    The mention of a hidden side canyon agrees with another version I read some years ago (in a magazine, wish I could remember which one) - by any chance did he mention the presence of rather large boulders close by the entrance to the side canyon?

    Google doesn't have much of anything on El Naranjal, which surprises me really considering the fame or "infamy" of the mine. I do have more notes stored here somewhere - from the pre-computer days though so it is somewhat a matter of "luck" for me to FIND anything again.

    Thanks again, I hope you have a great day - and HOLD YOUR MULE you can wait for me to join you when we go find El Naranjal! (You got me worried now - how much ELSE did your friend tell you in clues to find it? YOU might very well just find it!) Bring your dog along though!

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  2. #17
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    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: El Naranjal

    Thanks buddy.

    I have fair hopes that a person might just locate this old mine with a bit of luck and leg work - one reason being that old road sign. Why should that make any difference, one might ask? Well for one thing, it means that a regular road had been constructed to the orangery, which was maintained at least a bit. (Maintained being a really loose interpretation of the term, but as to keeping the "road" at least passable) If there was a road in to it, (and it does not make sense that someone would have made up a road sign unless there was) it might be possible to find the original roadway and follow it, assuming it has not been washed away or destroyed with landslides.

    Sometimes the old roads of the Spaniards are very much gone, like the old route from Tumacacori to Arivaca, which exists only in sections today. Assuming the mountains are that steep and rugged, with plentiful rainfalls, the road might be even worse than the example I mentioned. However those who claimed to have seen the hacienda, were able to locate the trail and follow it, though often with great difficulties. Of course following an old trail can prove to be a great exercise, with nothing else for your efforts but fresh air and nice scenery - old cattle and sheep trails even game trails (especially bear trails) can appear to be an old man-made trail yet lead to nothing but water or good grazing.

    It will likely take me a year or more to even go look for El Naranjal,as I have many things that need doing before I can "indulge" in such a trip. Plus I hate to go prospecting without a good prospecting dog - Tropical Tramp hasn't said he would lend me his! However life is short, don't think I will put it off forever. My next step is getting good topographic maps of the areas.

    Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  3. #18
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: El Naranjal

    Real de Tayopa, could you suggest any good places to buy a burro or mule (trained of course!) or even a saddle horse, south of the border? It seems like that might be easier than getting all the shots and vet papers necessary to haul horses there and back. I would even settle for a burro at a livestock auction, if it were not vicious! I figure the pack animal(s) could simply be sold when the expedition is over.

    Also, does Sinaloa have a "monsoon" season? What would you say is the best time of year to be there, on a hunt for a legendary lost mine? I have never been to Sinaloa, not sure what to expect in climate, terrain etc - though from your description it sounds like very tough country.

    One last question, ever hear of anyone finding that mine named "Juana de Arco" (Joan of Arc) which was supposed to be in the same area as El Naranjal? A 'google' search turns up ZILCH on the mine, as you probably know. I have no information on the Joan of Arc mine, and getting a good case of 'lost mine fever' gets my curiosity up. I suspect that if a body were able to locate that old state road, and follow it - one might be able to locate BOTH lost mines, as well as the original estancia.

    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #19
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    FINALLY! A thread on "El Naranjal" One of my favorite Lost Mexican Mine Legends. From the little bits ive read here and there over time I thought the mine was within the Limits of the State of Durango? But maybe im wrong, also about the oranges I find it hard to believe that those groves are still producing fruit after hundreds of years, Does anybody know if these domesticated varieties of orange trees can continue to grow wildly, especially after so many years? Just some things ive wondered because the orange trees in our orchard back home have to be replaced every 15-20 years. Im gonna try to do a little research on that, and see what i can find out.

    Anyways glad to see some stuff on "El Naranjal"

  5. #20
    um
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: El Naranjal

    Well heck, El Naranjal sure could be within Durango, since I don't know exactly where it is! I also don't know how long an orange tree could survive, or if it would be naturally seeding itself/propogating over time, which would explain the oranges that occasionally come floating down the river.

    Of course, once I find the mine, I can tell you for sure if it is within Durango and if those orange trees still surviving...

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  6. #21
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    LOL Oroblanco, you can keep all the gold, just send me some pics and ill be satisfied with that. Just to look at whats left of the place would be awesome!

  7. #22
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    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: El Naranjal

    Hello again,

    I found yet another version of the El Naranjal legend, and this "new" version (1972 was the year of publication) appears to ME to be a strong case of what is popularly termed "confabulation". (Mixing of facts from different sources, and mixing of fantasy with fact) I won't mention the author's name but he has changed the story of the lost gold mine into a lost SILVER mine, and instead of one very rich gold mine with nuggets the size and color of oranges, he says it is a whole group of mines, and that when it was abandoned in 1810 that a whole shipment of silver bars was left in the mine in the rush.

    Now I don't care to cast a lot of aspersions around, but it sounds very much like this author has mixed together the details of the more famous Tayopa legend in with El Naranjal pretty freely. No other source I have ever found has El Naranjal as a silver mine, nor as a group of mines, nor any huge shipment of silver bars left in the mine - so I don't know how much is left of this other version if you filter out the material that seems to have been, shall we say "borrowed" from Tayopa? He does mention a rock pile on the trail as the beginning point of the original Royal Road that led past El Naranjal, but places it near El Salto. Now El Salto does appear to be a good starting point, but according to other sources, there is no pile of stones to indicate where the old road veers off from the still-existing trail over the Sierra.

    Sorry for the delay in replying, been down in Sinaloa the last two weeks, hiking up and down some steep barrancas along a particular river close to the Durango border, looking for a narrow pass into a side canyon... - JUST KIDDING however to be perfectly honest, I am seriously considering such a trip. Got to find a place to buy or rent a couple of burros or mules though, not sure our horses would be the best choice for pack animals there. (Bad back is my excuse for wanting pack animals, and am too danged lazy to be packing my gear on my back anyway! After all, that is why they call them "beasts of burden"! )

    What do you think El Gral, have you read or seen any description of El Naranjal as a group of silver mines? Or is this fellow (who published his story in True West magazine) taking liberties with the facts and mixing together the facts of Tayopa with the facts of El Naranjal? I sure found it strange that he made no mention of the Juana de Arco mine, which is the other lost mine in the same general area, and has it as silver instead of gold. After all, who ever heard of silver nuggets the color of oranges?

    I hope you have a great day,
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  8. #23
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    HA! You had me believing for a second that you were down in Sinaloa!
    Yeah, I've also been planning a trip south of the border recently, but more than likely nothing is going to happen until late this year.

    As for this other version of "El Naranjal" I have to admit that I have never heard or read about a group of silver mines being associated with "El Naranjal". From what you shared I do think that this particular author was probably taking liberties or mixing two different legends because anybody who has done research on this mine would be familiar with the Juana de Arco mine and like you said he didnt even mention it. It would be a nice article to read though. I always love to devour any stories or articles on "El Naranjal"

    As for the mules or burros, do you have any friends or contacts down there who could direct you to a good source? I am not too familiar with Sinaloa or Durango other than a few passing trips, so I dont know how easy it is to rent some animals in that area.

  9. #24
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,489
    2983 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI ask away mi general hehehe. May I suggest that you carefully examine the map in the first post for an idea just how broken up and deep that country is, which is also why narcotics are grown in there.. Mules etc are readily available. Specific details on Naranjal will be by em. General here..

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  10. #25
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,795
    1048 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Oro,

    Citrus trees can and, of course, do grow in the wild. They are susceptible to disease an pests, which can wipe out an uncultivated grove.

    There is a grapefruit tree in Florida that was discovered in 1892 and was still alive in 2006. That says something for their longevity, but it has been taken care of.

    It's more than possible that the grove in question is still producing trees and fruit. The fruit may taste more like limes than oranges by now.

    Joe

  11. #26
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,489
    2983 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HIO: There are still orange trees at Tayopa from 1767, but they have reverted to spiny trees etc.

    A hint , when in the brush look for the tall out of place, palm trees, not date palms. The old Spanish used them for indicating mines, water, ranches, or anything that was important.

    As you rode through the country in those days a palm such as this was easy to see for miles, and so you could home in on it easily, so look for Palms guys.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  12. #27
    um
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    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,783
    1894 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Thanks for the info mi amigos! That recent 'find' article was in True West magazine, April 1972 - don't think I should insult the author by naming that person as I suspect the facts have gotten (somehow) mixed, as mentioned earlier.

    Real de Tayopa, can you give me any idea of how much a fair mule or (larger) burro would cost, to buy in Mexico? I know a great deal depends on the age, health and training etc but a general range of price would be helpful in figuring out how many shekels $$$ I have to save up for this trip. Assuming prices are somewhat similar to here in USA, mules would be considerably more expensive than burros, and actually I am leaning to go with burros. I have pack equipment, if it is still in shape to use (leather can go to crap sometimes just sitting in storage) so don't have to buy a whole lot of equipment, just pack animals to save me from breaking a sweat hauling stuff. Back injury, a poor excuse I realize, but even if it were not injured having pack animals makes life much easier for prospecting and treasure hunting.

    That tip about the TALL palms is a great tip, might well point the way to a famous old lost mine.....
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  13. #28
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    Same here, thanks for the tip Real De Tayopa. Ill keep that in mind about the palm trees, if im ever out in that part of the country.

  14. #29
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,783
    1894 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    OK I have a REALLY dumb question too, that is relevant. About what time of year do oranges ripen and drop, in that area (Sinaloa)? If any of the orange trees still survive and produce fruits, one might wish to make a search during the period when oranges would be ripe and dropping to the ground.

    Thank you in advance, good luck and good hunting to you friends.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  15. #30
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,489
    2983 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI Oro: Sorry for the delay, Bk from a fiasco trip to Tayopa yesterday.. The men that I went with to find the locked metal door were complete city types, very impatient and totally inexperienced but willing, a bull in a china shop syndrome. They couldn't have done anything more wrong. End result was that because of this, my Mexican friend had a fatal heart attack and that ended the party. I will go back in Oct or Nov, but without them this time. The fiasco cost "me" approx. $ 12,000 Us, sheesh. It would have been better spent on your well.

    The deceased friend had actually found the door in 50, and had tried to break the large old Spanish lock with a rock, but had lost it's location due to talus falloff covering it. It lies definitely within my holdings. Incidentally, it's crude location is on Dobie's map to Tayopa, interestingly enough, shown as a ladder on the northen part of the map.

    Did find a dry placer nearby where an Indian had recovered a large instant coffee jar full of coarse nuggets picking by hand. Will use two Gold Scorpions for checking this, they are light and inexpensive,so if the trip is too rugged I will not have lost too much $$$. This is not within my present holdings. More expenses sigh.

    As for those Sinaloa/Durango barrancas, they are deep, may be at almost sea level while the surroundings may reach 6000+ ft. They are definitely tropical, hot and muggy, while the peaks are pine forest and delightfully cool this time of the year.

    That is a huge, rough country to explore, you will have your work cut out for you.

    Good riding mule goes for approx $ 500 Us today. Burros cheaper

    Don Jose de La Mancha.

    p.s. will post misc pictures later, also oranges appear to be produced most of the year there.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

 
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