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Thread: El Naranjal

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  1. #21
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    LOL Oroblanco, you can keep all the gold, just send me some pics and ill be satisfied with that. Just to look at whats left of the place would be awesome!

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  3. #22
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: El Naranjal

    Hello again,

    I found yet another version of the El Naranjal legend, and this "new" version (1972 was the year of publication) appears to ME to be a strong case of what is popularly termed "confabulation". (Mixing of facts from different sources, and mixing of fantasy with fact) I won't mention the author's name but he has changed the story of the lost gold mine into a lost SILVER mine, and instead of one very rich gold mine with nuggets the size and color of oranges, he says it is a whole group of mines, and that when it was abandoned in 1810 that a whole shipment of silver bars was left in the mine in the rush.

    Now I don't care to cast a lot of aspersions around, but it sounds very much like this author has mixed together the details of the more famous Tayopa legend in with El Naranjal pretty freely. No other source I have ever found has El Naranjal as a silver mine, nor as a group of mines, nor any huge shipment of silver bars left in the mine - so I don't know how much is left of this other version if you filter out the material that seems to have been, shall we say "borrowed" from Tayopa? He does mention a rock pile on the trail as the beginning point of the original Royal Road that led past El Naranjal, but places it near El Salto. Now El Salto does appear to be a good starting point, but according to other sources, there is no pile of stones to indicate where the old road veers off from the still-existing trail over the Sierra.

    Sorry for the delay in replying, been down in Sinaloa the last two weeks, hiking up and down some steep barrancas along a particular river close to the Durango border, looking for a narrow pass into a side canyon... - JUST KIDDING however to be perfectly honest, I am seriously considering such a trip. Got to find a place to buy or rent a couple of burros or mules though, not sure our horses would be the best choice for pack animals there. (Bad back is my excuse for wanting pack animals, and am too danged lazy to be packing my gear on my back anyway! After all, that is why they call them "beasts of burden"! )

    What do you think El Gral, have you read or seen any description of El Naranjal as a group of silver mines? Or is this fellow (who published his story in True West magazine) taking liberties with the facts and mixing together the facts of Tayopa with the facts of El Naranjal? I sure found it strange that he made no mention of the Juana de Arco mine, which is the other lost mine in the same general area, and has it as silver instead of gold. After all, who ever heard of silver nuggets the color of oranges?

    I hope you have a great day,
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #23
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    HA! You had me believing for a second that you were down in Sinaloa!
    Yeah, I've also been planning a trip south of the border recently, but more than likely nothing is going to happen until late this year.

    As for this other version of "El Naranjal" I have to admit that I have never heard or read about a group of silver mines being associated with "El Naranjal". From what you shared I do think that this particular author was probably taking liberties or mixing two different legends because anybody who has done research on this mine would be familiar with the Juana de Arco mine and like you said he didnt even mention it. It would be a nice article to read though. I always love to devour any stories or articles on "El Naranjal"

    As for the mules or burros, do you have any friends or contacts down there who could direct you to a good source? I am not too familiar with Sinaloa or Durango other than a few passing trips, so I dont know how easy it is to rent some animals in that area.

  5. #24
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI ask away mi general hehehe. May I suggest that you carefully examine the map in the first post for an idea just how broken up and deep that country is, which is also why narcotics are grown in there.. Mules etc are readily available. Specific details on Naranjal will be by em. General here..

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  6. #25
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,270
    498 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Oro,

    Citrus trees can and, of course, do grow in the wild. They are susceptible to disease an pests, which can wipe out an uncultivated grove.

    There is a grapefruit tree in Florida that was discovered in 1892 and was still alive in 2006. That says something for their longevity, but it has been taken care of.

    It's more than possible that the grove in question is still producing trees and fruit. The fruit may taste more like limes than oranges by now.

    Joe

  7. #26
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HIO: There are still orange trees at Tayopa from 1767, but they have reverted to spiny trees etc.

    A hint , when in the brush look for the tall out of place, palm trees, not date palms. The old Spanish used them for indicating mines, water, ranches, or anything that was important.

    As you rode through the country in those days a palm such as this was easy to see for miles, and so you could home in on it easily, so look for Palms guys.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  8. #27
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,100
    623 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Thanks for the info mi amigos! That recent 'find' article was in True West magazine, April 1972 - don't think I should insult the author by naming that person as I suspect the facts have gotten (somehow) mixed, as mentioned earlier.

    Real de Tayopa, can you give me any idea of how much a fair mule or (larger) burro would cost, to buy in Mexico? I know a great deal depends on the age, health and training etc but a general range of price would be helpful in figuring out how many shekels $$$ I have to save up for this trip. Assuming prices are somewhat similar to here in USA, mules would be considerably more expensive than burros, and actually I am leaning to go with burros. I have pack equipment, if it is still in shape to use (leather can go to crap sometimes just sitting in storage) so don't have to buy a whole lot of equipment, just pack animals to save me from breaking a sweat hauling stuff. Back injury, a poor excuse I realize, but even if it were not injured having pack animals makes life much easier for prospecting and treasure hunting.

    That tip about the TALL palms is a great tip, might well point the way to a famous old lost mine.....
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  9. #28
    el_gral

    Re: El Naranjal

    Same here, thanks for the tip Real De Tayopa. Ill keep that in mind about the palm trees, if im ever out in that part of the country.

  10. #29
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,100
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    Re: El Naranjal

    OK I have a REALLY dumb question too, that is relevant. About what time of year do oranges ripen and drop, in that area (Sinaloa)? If any of the orange trees still survive and produce fruits, one might wish to make a search during the period when oranges would be ripe and dropping to the ground.

    Thank you in advance, good luck and good hunting to you friends.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #30
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI Oro: Sorry for the delay, Bk from a fiasco trip to Tayopa yesterday.. The men that I went with to find the locked metal door were complete city types, very impatient and totally inexperienced but willing, a bull in a china shop syndrome. They couldn't have done anything more wrong. End result was that because of this, my Mexican friend had a fatal heart attack and that ended the party. I will go back in Oct or Nov, but without them this time. The fiasco cost "me" approx. $ 12,000 Us, sheesh. It would have been better spent on your well.

    The deceased friend had actually found the door in 50, and had tried to break the large old Spanish lock with a rock, but had lost it's location due to talus falloff covering it. It lies definitely within my holdings. Incidentally, it's crude location is on Dobie's map to Tayopa, interestingly enough, shown as a ladder on the northen part of the map.

    Did find a dry placer nearby where an Indian had recovered a large instant coffee jar full of coarse nuggets picking by hand. Will use two Gold Scorpions for checking this, they are light and inexpensive,so if the trip is too rugged I will not have lost too much $$$. This is not within my present holdings. More expenses sigh.

    As for those Sinaloa/Durango barrancas, they are deep, may be at almost sea level while the surroundings may reach 6000+ ft. They are definitely tropical, hot and muggy, while the peaks are pine forest and delightfully cool this time of the year.

    That is a huge, rough country to explore, you will have your work cut out for you.

    Good riding mule goes for approx $ 500 Us today. Burros cheaper

    Don Jose de La Mancha.

    p.s. will post misc pictures later, also oranges appear to be produced most of the year there.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  12. #31
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,100
    623 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HOLA mi amigo Tropical Tramp!

    No appols necessary, I have been unable to get online much the last few months myself and I figured you might be visiting good old Tayopa. I am sorry to hear that your friend passed away during the trip, it doesn't get much worse than that in the range of possible bad outcomes. I am also sorry to hear that the expedition ended up being so costly $$$ for you.

    Bad things seem to come in threes, so I have to ask - is there even more bad news? I sure hope NOT! It is easy to see how famous lost mines get to have a reputation for being "cursed" when so many things can go wrong just in getting to them.

    Thank you for the info on the cost of mules and burros too buddy. Beth and I are packing to move away at the moment (going to South Dakota for a while) so my hope of making an expedition to search for El Naranjal has to go back on the "back burner" but NOT off the table entirely. We are planning to sell this place and buy a patented mine for a home base, then......I hope to take a run at El Naranjal. $500 for a riding mule isn't too bad, if one considers how much walking that will save (even though riding gives a different set of aches and pains, even saddle sores) it could be worth the expense.

    If oranges are ripening most of the year, and those old trees survive (or perhaps some naturally propogated from the parent trees) then perhaps it could still be a useful clue to finding El Naranjal? The fact that there was a Royal Road might also turn out to be helpful (or not - depending on how much, if any, of the old road survives) and leads me to believe there could even be maps in existence.

    Good luck and good hunting to you buddy, sorry to hear how bad things went for you - you will win out eventually, and perhaps those gold nuggets in the coffee jar will more than recompense your loss (financial loss, nothing replaces a lost friend). I agree with your logic on detectors, as with firearms - it is not wise to take along any kind of equipment that is so expensive that losing it would be a hardship.

    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  13. #32
    BobSands

    Re: El Naranjal

    Hey,

    Saw your discussion about Sinaloa.

    Does anyone have any information on John D. Mitchell, who went to Sinaloa around 1904 or '06? He wrote some stories about it. Would really appreciate any info you have.

    I went to Sinaloa on some treasures hunts a few times in the '80s. I saw your age on your profile, and from your comments, I thought you were a real old timer. My dad went out there with us when he was in his late 60s. My father-in-law was in his late 50s. I am planning a trip there and am 55. So your age is no hinderance. By the way, my Mom was 2 years younger than my Dad. She drove us as far as we could go in a truck, and had to drive back through the mountains, crossing a river in the truck, go a 2 hour drive through the mountains, then drive down the highway to stay in a motel in Los Mochis. Incredible, eh!? My son went on one trip when he was twelve, and my wife and daughter went. My daughter was only 6 then.

    Travel light. Take some water, but conserve it. Do not take animals. You can rent burros or horses unless you go there during planting season. I would take a local guide. A horse, mule, or man costs about the same each per day. Back then we paid $3.00 per day for either. Take some food of your own. Eat sparsely. When you come across people out there, and there are many indians out there, they will welcome you in their houses. They will feed you. If you are lucky, you will be able to get eggs and refried beans. They served us stacks of tortillas often, crawling with roaches. Wipe them away and eat with grace.

    Keep all information to yourself. Do not let them know what you are looking for. They will guess it is for treasure. Take a camera, notebook, write alot, tell them you are a nature writer or naturalist.

    Take a GPS, record your path carefully. Try to take an interpreter, someone you trust, hopefully from the US. Most Americans have a great fear of going there. Every blowhard that went with us turned out to be the biggest cowards of all.

    We often stopped at the Marihuana ranches, and found the people quite friendly, and they had reputations. But we got along. I am certainly not a part of that crowd, but we got along. I even bought some guns from them.

    When we got into the little town near our hunting site, the head of the army came to check us out within 15 minutes of our being there. And a white guy, I guess was either drugs or DEA came to check us out.

    Travel is exhausting, but only because the leader of our little group, a businessman, had no sense of doing things outdoors. He drove me relentlessly, while they stayed at the motels. You must be careful to maintain moral amoung your party. It is very easy for bad blood to arise between party members and the local guide. So keep it all cool and friendly. If you go out there whoring, drinking, or especially drugging, you might as well shoot yourself before you even go.

    Be good, kind, and modestly generous to all you meet. Keep alot of small change with you to pass out freely. Do not take much money with you. Get a hunting license for doves or other game. Make sure you get a license and take shotguns in legally. Load a few shells with magnesium, to create a startling flash.

    Obey the soldiers! The fool of leader we had, the businessman was going to drive through a military guard of 2 guys. I hollered at him to stop, but he knew better. I looked back at the guards, they were bring up their M-16s on us, I hollered my last warning, and was about to jump out, when he wisely decided to stop. I smoothed everything over with the soldiers. To test them, I once showed them some old guns I had, and they were cool with it. I always try to make friends with them all and show respect, and they respond.

    I did have a the head of an ejido, and kind of a sheriff, take a shot at me. The bullet whizzed through the corn stalks next to me. I turned around and gave him a hard look, but he just looked away kind of sheepish like. And we got along well afterwards.

    I would like to go down with you as a guide. There are many opportunites aside whether you find the mine or not. No whoring, drinking, drugging. Need to be easy going, respectful, and not spiteful of the Mexicans or Indians. And from your emails, I think this fits you.

    By the way, I am 54, and I have no fear about my age, so you should feel confident. Do not be afraid of going. Yes, it can be very dangerous. But, hey, we all need to have a great experience like this in our lives.

    Your friend,

    Bob


  14. #33
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,100
    623 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    No whoring, drinking, drugging.

    Aw heck there goes all the fun!

    I will keep you in mind Bob, when I do make a 'run' at this one. My age is not my biggest difficulty, just 'ain't what I used to be' - there is a saying, it isn't the years, it was the miles! Been hooked on treasure hunting since I was nineteen, and gold was $35 an ounce! (This is also reflected in my "resume" which has a huge number of blank spots ) Keep in touch buddy!

    I believe I have all of Mitchell's books and most of his articles, unfortunately most everything we own is now packed so it will be a while before I can get at them, will get back to you on this.

    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  15. #34
    BobSands

    Re: El Naranjal

    Wow Roy,

    Great to hear back from you already. Yes, I will keep in touch.

    Very nice to see that you know of John D. Mitchell and have his books. I came across one containing info that verified something I was looking for, but came at it from a different angle, so I was trying to find out all I could about him. I don't know why, but his books are very hard to find.

    Right now I am in Zapata, Texas, setting up a business on the border in Mexico, trying to. I brought my old dredge and am looking for a few Mexicans to operate it for me in Sinaloa.

    Actually I was amazed to find another gringo with interest in the area.

    Well, my trips there were unforgetable. I hope that you take time to get down there. It is one of the most beautiful places I have ever been. When we were way up on a trail, we could look down on the streams, and they were crystal clear. If you find the right guide down there, he will take to to people he knows as friendly. They will all welcome you there and feed you, asking for nothing. It is like stepping back into the 1800s. I have gotten many stories from the locals, legends, ghost stories, stories of mysterious caves, lost treasure, and so on. YOU WILL LOVE IT.

    Looking forward to hearing from you again, sometime. If you need advice, I will offer all i can.

    We went down there following the story of an old white guy who used to be a miner there. He was a cousin of Roy Rogers, and you could see the resemblance in his eyes. Through various ways, his story was verified by different people. My father-in-law knew someone that had bought a solid gold coiled serpent from him long ago. A story in Mitchell's book approached the same story, but from a completely different angle. One looking for our site, we actually stumbled across the place that John Mitchell was looking for, but I did not find his story until a few years after we had been there.

    Well, good to hear back from you. Bye for now.

    Your friend,
    Bob

  16. #35
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI PEEPS: sniffff.

    I have just received a tel call from my friend that is mining Tungsten near by. He had decided to file on an adjoining piece of land that was free only to find that - no land in Mexico is free any more.

    His surveyor notified him that a consortium of 4 men had divided Mexico into 4 zones, then filed upon ALL free land simultaneously and so the piece of land that he wanted was no longer free..

    This of course will be contested by mining and business groups up the Congress and President, but in the meantime?

    I am checking into this, will post results.

    SNIFFFFFF

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  17. #36
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HOLA ED: No way can bikes or quads be used in that country. just too rough and no trails where you want to go.

    I am posting a few pictures of the Tayopa country to give you an idea.

    Till Eulenspiegel - Don Jose de La Mancha
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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  18. #37
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    HI ED: Another one, plus Food back in there!

    Till Eulenspiegel - Don Jose de La Mancha
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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  19. #38
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,170
    801 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    FOOD!
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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  20. #39

    May 2006
    Mesa, AZ
    1,656
    11 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Quote Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa
    FOOD!
    Maybe she could teach my wife to cook....
    Sincerely,
    Randy Wright
    Mix Engineer

  21. #40

    May 2006
    Mesa, AZ
    1,656
    11 times

    Re: El Naranjal

    Here are Ed's pics!
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    Sincerely,
    Randy Wright
    Mix Engineer

 

 
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