tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

PS - Blindbowman, I am just ONE GUY. You don't HAVE to prove it to me. Besides, don't you think you would like to read Real de Tayopa's replies?

Thom I sure hope I didn't say something offensive - I have plenty of enemies already and don't need to lose any friends! That clue about the Cerro de las Campanas is the one that I always had the most problems with, since there are several different ancient mines such as the Dios Padres that the owners claim are Tayopa, yet none (except ONE - that owned by our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa) will fit with that clue. Jose' finally let me know the reason why we have this rather peculiar problem, it is because several different places were named Tayopa over the centuries. If not for this fact, I would have dismissed the claim of our amigo Blindbowman offhand - but we know that the name was used for several different places....so it IS possible, but I want (or hoped) to see some proof that will "lock" it for me.

Arkhunter wrote:

i think he means me <snip>

I don't think so amigo, I did not see anything that sounds like a personal attack in your posts. In fact didn't you say,

wow...what a leap...a total lack of logic...very sad really

That does not sound like any kind of insult to me - if it were, why would you have said it was "sad" that he was willing to let his discoveries "rot" for "another 500 years"? Did I miss something there?

Maybe I am just not reading the posts the way Blindbowman is taking them? Blindbowman if you are still active, I hope that you are not just having a bad day or something - I know that sometimes I take things 'the wrong way' if my day has been in the old crapper all day long. What was said that hit you, amigo Blindbowman, as some kind of personal attack? I am pretty sure no attack was intended.

One last bit on personal attacks - I don't care for "flame wars" as happens on forums all too often. I am pretty sure that if Arkhunter, myself or any other of your amigos here had intended a personal attack on you Blindbowman, there would be no doubt about it. The moderators would then likely intercede and posts would get removed, and in really bad cases a member or two would get banned temporarily or permanently. So mi amigo Blindbowman, take it easy pal you are among friends here, friends who have been enjoying the discussion.

Good luck and good hunting to you all my friends, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

thank you . i thaught the black spots were from fires but they said it was some kind of color dye. that must of been where the bells were put to cool ...and dry .. i thaught the black spots with rings of stones may hae been some kind of greave ritual .. it must be where the bells set drying ,....why didnt you just say that in the frist place , its june 15 th and the mesa is mapa mesa , and i know just why they say that ... i dont speak spainish and i am not going to keep looking up every spainish word they knew .... my eyes are over worked now . i read thousands of pages a week and every time i mis spell some word everyone acts like they are teachers or some great malfunktion has taken place ...

i dont real care at this piont if the tayopa is ever found ...i dont care if RDT is wrong ...? am i right .. if i dont go back no one well ever know what i found is tayopa ...

let RDT find it where he thinks it is ,if it is there ... i am washing my hands of this legend .. i got better things to do at this piont in my life ...

before you ask ... lol

 

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[Old Dog]

there is no attack in insisting that the so called fact be reinforced with actual facts and pictures
The real deal Not a fuzzy half partial out of focus thing that shows only an inability to operate a camera.
A couple good pictures of a site won't hurt anything.
and most of us aren't even interested in chasing down what he speaks of,
we just want to see the proof of the statements he makes,

which will never happen as he has none.
Thom

 

[the blindbowman]

PS:
...if i am right i beleive the one high cross of carved silver from Tayopa mine,weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds ,with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the paramo placer.....

is this the missing crucifix from the church wall ...? 35- 40 pounds sounds logical to me .....? yes if i find the vault i beleive i can prove this is Tayopa

 

[Old Dog]

Nice delete job on the huge copy and paste.
What you must have realised is that the area the info you posted was talking about is right where Don Jose is working.

Thom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I posted two days ago but it hasn't appeared., prob. my server's fault since I was having probs. at the time.

K a few clarifications,--- Thom you are righton the ball. heehe.

Flipper never was at Tayopa !

Flipper never actively searched for Tayopa on the ground, only in the Archives in Spain.

The "Cerro de La Campana" lies East of Tayopa in Chihuahua.a

The data that he found stating that on "the 7 th March, from the cerro de La Campana , the sun will be setting directly over Tayopa, a 10 day journey ". is 100% correct. The setting sun over Tayopa is part of my logo. see attachment

The "Mesa del Campanero" - the mesa of the Bell Maker - lies north of Tayopa and West of Yecora. It is presently called "La Sierra Obscuro".

There never was a church - Cathedral - as commonly visualized at Tayopa, only a single large roomed Mission. with an adjoining room called a Cato. Rose was fabricating grossly in his story.. The main headquarters lies aprox. 3 -4 miles North West of the Tayopa mine. There was another on the crest of the TAYOPA complex.

Santa Ana -> Guadalupe de Tayopa #2, presently is called "Los Dos Padres" - lies west of Yecora some 20 miles by Air but ---.


The cut stone box - incorrect interpretation - lies 400 meters North East of the Capilla of Tayopa.

There are many many other things that I can comment on, but this will suffice for now.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Bb the long list of documets that you posted, then removed, was extremely interesting, but did not contain a single to reference to Tayopa.

 

[the blindbowman]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I posted two days ago but it hasn't appeared., prob. my server's fault since I was having probs. at the time.

K a few clarifications,--- Thom you are righton the ball. heehe.

Flipper never was at Tayopa !

Flipper never actively searched for Tayopa on the ground, only in the Archives in Spain.

The "Cerro de La Campana" lies East of Tayopa in Chihuahua.a

The data that he found stating that on "the 7 th March, from the cerro de La Campana , the sun will be setting directly over Tayopa, a 10 day journey ". is 100% correct. The setting sun over Tayopa is part of my logo. see attachment

The "Mesa del Campanero" - the mesa of the Bell Maker - lies north of Tayopa and West of Yecora. It is presently called "La Sierra Obscuro".

There never was a church - Cathedral - as commonly visualized at Tayopa, only a single large roomed Mission. with an adjoining room called a Cato. Rose was fabricating grossly in his story.. The main headquarters lies aprox. 3 -4 miles North West of the Tayopa mine. There was another on the crest of the TAYOPA complex.

Santa Ana -> Guadalupe de Tayopa #2, presently is called "Los Dos Padres" - lies west of Yecora some 20 miles by Air but ---.


The cut stone box - incorrect interpretation - lies 400 meters North East of the Capilla of Tayopa.

There are many many other things that I can comment on, but this will suffice for now.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Bb the long list of documets that you posted, then removed, was extremely interesting, but did not contain a single to reference to Tayopa.

who eversaid he was ...? lol

that could be true he never said he was ooking for and legends or mine sites that i know of ..

:Henry O. Flipper
Sponsored LinksFlipper
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www.TVazzel.com

engineer; army officer; translator; writer

Personal Information

Born Henry Ossian Flipper, March 21, 1856, in Thomasville, GA; died May 3, 1940; son of Festus (a shoemaker and carriage trimmer) and Isabella (Buckhalter) Flipper.
Education: Attended Atlanta University; graduated from United States Military Academy, West Point, NY, 1877.
Memberships: National Geographic Society, Southwest Society of the Archaeological Institute of America, Association of Civil Engineers of Arizona.

Career

U.S. Army, 1877-81; became lieutenant; dishonorably discharged, 1881; charges reversed and name cleared, 1976. Engineer and writer. Sonora Land Company, Chicago, IL, chief engineer, 1886; opened civil and mining engineering office, Nogales, AZ, 1887; editor of the Nogales Sunday Herald, 1889; Altar Land and Colonization Company, chief engineer, 1890-92; U.S. Justice Department Court of Private Land Claims, special agent, 1893-1901; Balvanera Mining Company, resident engineer, 1902-19; translator and interpreter for the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, 1919-23; engineer with the Pantepec Oil Company, 1923-30.

Life's Work

Henry O. Flipper was a quiet hero who led a proud and exemplary life full of achievements despite harsh circumstances. He had been born into slavery yet still attended a university, graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point, and became an officer in the U.S. Army. He pursued a career as a civil and mining engineer, became an expert on Mexican land laws, and translated several books on law. Flipper is probably best remembered for wrongly receiving a dishonorable discharge from the army and subsequently fighting to exonerate himself. He was never able to clear the charges on his own, but thirty-five years after his death, others took up his cause and succeeded.

Flipper was born in Thomasville, Georgia, on March 21, 1856, less than a decade before the surrender of the Confederacy in 1865 brought an end to the Civil War and freed him and his family from slavery. His father, a skilled shoemaker and carriage trimmer, set up a successful business in Atlanta after the war and was able to afford private tutoring to educate his two sons.

In 1866 Flipper enrolled in schools established by the American Missionary Association, and in 1869 he began studying at Atlanta University. Three years later he applied for an appointment to West Point; he was accepted and entered in July of 1873 as the fifth Black cadet to enroll at the academy. His entrance did not go unnoticed: the Louisville Ledger, the Chicago Tribune, the Philadelphia paper North American, and Washington, D.C.'s New National Era and Citizen all carried articles about him during his stay there. Depending on the bias of the paper, some supported his efforts, some did not.

In 1878, shortly after he graduated from West Point, Flipper wrote an account of his experiences there titled The Colored Cadet at West Point. In the book, he describes many sides of life at the academy--the courses of study, the daily schedule, as well as his treatment by and interaction with the officers and other cadets. Flipper went out of his way to report his experiences in a positive way. For any unpleasant treatment he received, he found reasons other than race as its cause. He wrote in his memoir: "Whenever I have been insulted, or anything has been done or said to me which might have that construction, I have endeavored to find some excuse, some reason for it, which was not founded on prejudice or on baseness of character or any other ungentlemanly attribute; or, in other words, I wanted to prove that it was not done because of my color."

Although he claimed in The Colored Cadet at West Point that the officers there treated him with "uniform courtesy and impartiality," Flipper was nevertheless quite socially isolated because of his color. Apparently, he had been warned by another black cadet at the academy not to be too forward with his peers, so he kept to himself. His fellow students avoided him. While cadets sometimes started out acting friendly toward him, when they saw the ostracism practiced by others, they "discovered ere long that [they] too [were] prejudiced and thus one by one they cut me," Flipper wrote.

When he graduated in 1877, Flipper not only became the first black to graduate from West Point, but also the first black to become an officer in the U.S. Army. He requested and received an assignment with the Buffalo Soldiers, one of two black cavalry regiments. His first two years went smoothly, and his commanding officer liked him and treated him well. Flipper was respected by his peers and worked successfully in his unit. One of his tasks as post engineer was to drain some stagnant pools that had been breeding grounds for malaria for years. The army had tried unsuccessfully to drain them twice before. He succeeded where others had failed. This project, known as Flipper's Ditch, became a National Historic Landmark in 1977.

In late 1880 Flipper was assigned a new post under an officer who was known for his harsh treatment of junior officers. Within several months, money under Flipper's care was found missing, and Flipper was blamed for its disappearance. In 1881, he was court-martialed. Although the court found him innocent of embezzlement, he was found guilty of conduct unbecoming an officer and was dismissed from the army. He left the military saddened but not embittered.

Outside the army, Flipper pursued a successful career as an engineer, surveyor, and translator in the southwestern United States. He began as a surveyor for American companies holding lands in Mexico. In 1886, he became chief engineer for the Sonora Land Company of Chicago, and by 1887 he had opened his own civil and mining engineer office in a border town in Arizona. From 1890 to 1892, he was chief engineer for the Altar Land and Colonization Company.

Because of his familiarity with Spanish and Mexican land and mining laws, Flipper served the next eight years as a special agent with the Court of Private Land Claims formed by the Justice Department. He researched and translated thousands of land-grant claims in Mexican archives and surveyed hundreds of acres over southern Arizona; his court testimony saved the property of many landowners in land-grant trials. One town was so grateful that it reportedly gave a victory banquet in his honor. In 1895 the U.S. government published his translation of Spanish and Mexican Land Laws.

When he completed his work for the land claims court in 1901, Flipper joined a mining company first in Mexico and then later in New Mexico as resident engineer. In the early 1920s, he worked for an oil company that was pioneering the oil industry in Venezuela. He retired in 1930 and returned to his family in Atlanta, where he died in 1940.

Henry Flipper's first dream had been to become an officer in the U.S. Army. After his dishonorable discharge, his second dream was to clear his name and be reinstated. He followed this dream for the remainder of his adult life. In 1898, while working for the land claims court, he traveled to Washington D.C.; the first bill to have his court-martial reviewed was introduced that same year by Congressman Michael Griffen from Wisconsin. During the Spanish American War, Flipper offered his services to the military but was declined. He continued to travel every year to the capitol seeking restoration. Friends fought for him. Senator Albert Fall, who employed him as a translator in 1919, wrote emotional appeals to the Committee on Military Affairs. Even after retiring, Flipper persisted but was never able to clear his name.

Flipper's fight did not end with his death, however. Thirty-five years later, Ray MacColl, a teacher in Georgia, met Flipper's niece, Irsle King, and together the two prepared a case to clear his name. After researching the case for six months, they enlisted the aid of attorney Roy Lilly, Jr. Their key argument was that if Flipper had been found innocent of embezzlement, he could not have been guilty of misconduct. In 1976, the case was reviewed by the Army Board for Correction of Military Records in Washington, D.C., and the charges were reversed. Ninety-five years after his dishonorable discharge, Henry O. Flipper received an honorable discharge.

Flipper deserved and received more than just a clean record. One year after his name was cleared by army, Flipper's Ditch became a National Landmark. In 1978 his body was moved from Atlanta to his hometown of Thomasville, where he received a full military funeral; almost 500 people, including military and governmental officials, attended. In 1989 a memorial marker was unveiled at his grave. Two years later, ground was broken in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, for a monument to his Buffalo Soldiers. More than forty years after his death, Flipper had finally received the regard and respect he was due.

Works

Writings

The Colored Cadet at West Point. H. Lee and Co., 1878.
(Translator) Spanish and Mexican Land Laws, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1895.

...
i did not see any thing here that says he even went to spain at all...what are you talking about ..?

i see most of what you posted as opioions . if you beleive them i hope you find what you are lookingfor down there ...

your correct "Bb the long list of documets that you posted, then removed, was extremely interesting, but did not contain a single to reference to Tayopa"

i posted that for a good reason it dose not have one name of any priest that was from Tayopa . "why because i dont beleive any priest ever left tayopa alife "

my piont is for 3 days i have been searching for any one of the names of the priest on that document to show up any where after the fall of tayopa ...i have gone threw tousands of pages of related data so far and i will find them if they are out there .. before or after tayopa ..

i have found the Tayopa of the treasure trove list . what Tayopa it is who knows at this piont .. if you question the evidence when i have legal clam i will more then welcome you to come and see for your self what is there ..

so far everything you have said about Cerro de La Campana is true of this location as well other then it is in the Pimería Alta not just Chihuahua...


and to be truefull with you if i locate the vault and the curcifix is there that fits that church wall and it weight 40 lbs .. the question of what i found will be over right then .


i have no idea of what you found and i do not question it .. i question what i have found and i beleive i can locate this vault with out a dout ... i beleive when the church was in dangr they removed the curcifix and stored in a vault crypt ...

i think under a few inches of sand i well find a large stone slap covering a vault enterway all i can say at this piont is the part of the treasure trove list looks to have been stored there ,, if the cross is there and it its the church wall , that would dirrectly relate the treasure and the site togather as one and if the treasure trove list matches the items then this is in fact the tayopa of the list ... and that would be unmisteakable evidence ...

The setting sun over Tayopa is part of my logo. see attachment
didnt you say your kid made your logo ...?

 

[the blindbowman]

RDT said
"There never was a church "



the list says " between the church "

that sounds like a church to me ...?

i got to add if there was no church why have a curcifix the same size as the one missing from the wall i found ...


"The cut stone box - incorrect interpretation "

" a single large roomed Mission. with an adjoining room called a Cato. "

thats funny the church is not adjoining the stone and mud room at site 4 ... that room is side the covent " as the list stated it should be ...

maybe where your site is incorrect for a reason ...at this piont i can only say it is where the list says it is ...and the details match my site 4 ...

so the treasure trove list dose not match your site is that what you are saying ...??

because it dose match site 4 ... word for word ..


your right RDT .. this could be very enteresting ...

sorry my autisum sucks , i will put it back so you can copy it for your data ...

http://www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/Holland/MASC/onlinebooks/regla/gaines.htm

"[ MASC Homepage ] [ Contents ]


[ Fulfilling a Legacy ]
[ The Nature of the Regla Papers and Their Value for Scholars ] [ Arrangement of the Papers and Use of the Guide ] [ Gaines Sequence ] [ Gastine-Fieler Sequence ]
[ Jesuit Haciendas Sequence ] [ Charts, Maps, Proclamations, Genealogies ]
[ Microfilm Sequence ] [ Index ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I


Gaines Sequence

1. Escritura de venta que hizo Diego García Altamirano. 1546-1549. 15 l.

Bill of sale, power of attorney, and other records of Diego García Altamirano, regarding the sale to Francisco de Santa Cruz of houses in the city of Tenochtitlan; these houses were later acquired by the Conde de Santiago.

2. Escritura hecha en México de la venta de las casas que posee el señor Conde de Santiago. 1549. 15 l.

Bill of sale of houses by Diego García Altamirano, for María de Ribera, to Francisco de Santa Cruz, later property of the Conde de Santiago.

3. Traslado simple de una merced de unas caleras hecha a Juan de Villerías. 1565. 10 l.

Grant of lime pits near Tlaxcala to Juan de Villerías, along with documents regarding Indian property concessions and the toma de posesión.

4. Escritura de cambio y trueque. 1570. 3 l.

Agreement of exchange of properties belonging to Bernardino de Albornoz at Xoxocotla for others at a place called Gueyatlitacatotopetec, these having been granted by Indian representatives at Texcoco.

5. Carta de venta. 1575. 2 l.

Document concerning the sale by Bernardino de Albornoz of a site and canal for a mill in Gueyatlicatototepec to Francisco Hernández.

6. Poder del señor Alcalde y Tesorero Bernardino de Albornoz. 1576. 2 l.

A power of attorney from Bernardino de Albornoz to Francisco Hernández de la Puente to present a title and grant for a site and canal in Texcoco.

7. Escritura de venta. 1576. 2 l.

Confirmation of the sale by Bernardino de Albornoz of a site and canal in Gueyatlicatototepec to Francisco Hernández.

8. Carta de substitución. 1580. 3 l.

Documents concerning a lawsuit by Juan de la Vega over the possession of an estancia in Caracheo with pasture land and acreage near the town of Yurirapundaro.

9. Escritura de arrendamiento. 1589. 4 l.

Contract for lease of land in Metepecmolcaxhuacan, belonging to Francisca de la Cruz and her son Gaspar de la Cruz, and leased to Juan de Pomar. Addenda in Nahuatl.

10. Carta de venta. 1590-1594. 14 l.

Bill of sale of a plot of land from Marcos de la Puente and Mariana de Baguren, to Hernando de Mata, along with documents such as a writ of donación and toma de posesión regarding the prior ownership of the land by Juan de Pomar.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Regla Papers

11. Carta de obligación a favor de María de Ibarburen. 1606. 6 l.

Claim by Bartolomé de Entranbasaguas against Andrés de Montalvo for money pledged for the purchase of Hacienda Jalpa from María de Ibarburen.

12. Concesión a doña Leonor de Dueñas. 1610. 6 l.

Documents concerned with a petition by Leonor de Dueñas for a grant of water from the Cozcacuaco River to irrigate her hacienda in Chiautla, and the ruling by the Viceroy adjudicating the matter.

13. Títulos de concesión de agua. 1588-1610. 14 l.

Grants of water rights for property belonging to the Hacienda del Batán de Abajo, along with an explanation of the later transfer to the mayorazgo of Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

14. Título de concesión de agua. 1610-1612. 4 l.

Cozcacuaco River water grants and toma de posesión.

15. Provisión del Virrey, y carta de poder. 1616-1634. 4 l.

Two viceregal provisions issued by Diego Fernández de Córdoba, one concerning legalization of the land held by the widow of Pedro de Dueñas, the other regarding water rights of Juan de Ayala; power of attorney given by Juan de Ayala for the sale of water rights.

16. Títulos del Molino y Hacienda de Ximilpa. 1597-1640. 12 l.

Titles and documents related to the early owners of the mill and hacienda de Ximilpa, also called Coscacoaco, in the Jurisdiction of Texcoco, belonging to Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

17. Escritura de venta que otorgaron doña Melchora de Dueñas y sus hermanas. 1639-1640. 4 l.

Power of attorney and bill of sale of land by the daughters and heirs of Pedro de Dueñas.

18. Carta de obligación de Sebastián de Andia. 1641. 2 l.

Carta de obligación and cancellation of a debt of 2,140 pesos owed by Sebastián de Andia to Alvaro de Lorenzana.

19. Real Cédula de Iniciación en la Orden de Santiago. 1668-1669. 4 l.

Initiation of Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés into the Order of Santiago.

20. Testimonio de certificado de bautismo. 1647. 1 l.

Certificate of baptism of Juan, son of Juan de Sámano and Teresa de Acevedo.

21. Carta de poder y carta de arrendamiento de las haciendas de Ximilpa y del Batán. 1678-1680. 10 l.

Rental agreements and powers of attorney concerning the cancellation of a lease of the mill and Hacienda de Ximilpa and the Hacienda del Batán, the rent having been paid in full by Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, Conde de Santiago.

22. Carta de donación. 1681. 6 l.

A documented gift of 7,000 pesos by Ana Urrutia de Vergara to María Agustína Urrutia de Vergara.

23. Adición de joyas a un mayorazgo. 1683. 4 l.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gaines Sequence



Ana Urrutia de Vergara adds certain jewels to a mayorazgo by an instrument of aggregation executed May 7.

24. Testamento. 1682. 12 l.

Copy of the will of Ana Urrutia de Vergara.

25. Recibo por 150 pesos. 1692. 1 l.

Receipt for 150 pesos to Fr. Jerónimo de Argüello from Manuel Cantero, attorney for Manuel Alejandro Barba.

26. Carta de venta. 1681-1693. 6 l.

Pedro Albarrán Carrillo sells mulatto slave Tomás de Urrea to Juan Lorenzo Calvo. Included is a letter, dated 1693, concerning the sale.

27. Arrendamiento de haciendas y un molino. 1698. 4 l.

Copy of a lease for the Hacienda de Xiquilpa, Hacienda de Batán, and a mill in the Jurisdiction of Texcoco to Manuel Urrutia de Vergara Flores de Valdés.

28. Carta de poder. 1702. 1 l.

Power of attorney from Sargento Mayor Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, testamentary executor for his deceased aunt, Juana Urrutia de Vergara, Condesa del Valle de Orizaba, to José de Espinosa, to receive real estate information from the Mayor of Pachuca.

29. Notificación. 1702. 2 l.

Document concerned with payment of rent for the Rancho de Toltecatlaco, Jurisdiction of Tulancingo.

30. Petición. 1707. 1 l.

Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés petitions for the original registration of the brand for cattle of the Haciendas de Supitlan and San Antonio.

31. Carta de poder. 1706. 2 l.

Power of attorney to Diego Alfonso Flores de Valdés, son of Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, in transactions involving two haciendas, Batán in Texcoco and San Miguel in Tlaixpan.

32. Testamento del señor Sargento Mayor don Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, Caballero de Santiago. 1706-1707. 12 l.

Last will and testament, and inventory of the property of Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

33. Inventario de los bienes del Sargento Mayor Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, Caballero de Santiago. 1706-1707. 8 l.

Inventories of property belonging to the deceased Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, and documents concerning possession of the property by his widow.

34. Sucesión al mayorazgo instituído por don Antonio Urrutia de Vergaray doña María Bonilla Bastida. 1667. 3 l.

Document defining the succession to and possession of a mayorazgo founded by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

35. Carta de obligación de Antonio Ponce de León. 1687-1707. 4 l.

List of debts of Antonio Ponce de León, escribano of Acapulco, chiefly those owed Antonio and Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, along with agreements concerning their settlement.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Regla Papers

36. Certificado de bautismo. 1701-1708. 2 l.

Certificate of baptism of Diego Nicolás, son of Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés and Mariana Mejía Altamirano.

37. Aumento de alhajas al mayorazgo. 1709. 4 l.

A special clause in the will of María Bonilla y Bastida revising certain inheritance provisions.

38. Carta de pago. 1709. 3 l.

A petition by Mariana Mejía Altamirano for a copy of a carta de pago. Also included is a copy of this document, concerning the restitution of a dowry.

39. Provisión del Virrey en nombre de Felipe V, Rey de España. 1710. 4 l.

Statement by the Viceroy concerning claims to ownership by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés of certain lands in San Bartolomé Tesoquipan.

40. Declaración de entrega del Rancho de Toltecatlaxco. 1707. 2 l.

In March, Diego Tomás turned over the Rancho de Toltecatlaxco to José de Espinosa, administrator of the haciendas of Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

41. Certificado de bautismo de Ana María Josefa Bernarda Francisca Petronila Jerónima. 1714. 2 l.

Certificate of baptism of Ana María Josefa Bernarda Francisca Petronila Jerónima, the daughter of Diego Jerónimo Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés and Francisca Catarina López de Peralta Luyando y Bermeo.

42. Testimonio de inventario de los bienes del Sargento Mayor Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, Caballero de Santiago. 1706-1718. 33 l.

Inventory of the property left by the deceased Agustín Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

43. Inventario de Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés. n.d. 1 l.

Inventory of jewels, furnishings, goods, and slaves received by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés from his mother, Mariana Mejía Altamirano.

44. Poder que otorgó don Antonio Urrutia de Vergara al Alférez Jerónimo Astorga. 1721. 5 l.

Power of attorney for the collection of rental money owed to the deceased Nicolás de Velasco Altamirano Legaspi y Castilla from properties in La Sabana Grande, Los Tres Palos, el Veladero and La Brea.

45. Provisión de Felipe V, Rey de España. 1724. 4 l.

Royal decree of Felipe V ordering that all honors and privileges conceded to the office of Alguacíl Mayor of the Tribunal de Cuentas be observed in the interest of resolving disputes.

46. Testimonio pedido en favor de don Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés. 1728. 2 l.

Inventory of jewels and other articles belonging to the mayorazgo to which Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés succeeded at the death of his brother, Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

47. Información dada por don José Francisco de Landa, Procurador del Número de esta Real Audiencia. 1728. 5 l.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gaines Sequence



Petition, orders, and notification regarding the succession of Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés to a mayorazgo.

48. Testimonio de memoria. 1728. 4 l.

Inventory of jewels, furnishings, goods, and slaves, received by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés from his mother, Mariana Mejía Altamirano.

49. Toma de posesión de mayorazgo. 1728-1729. 9 l.

Documents pertaining to the rebuilding of a house by Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés, possessor of mayorazgo founded by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara. Also includes orders, petitions, toma de posesión and a decree regarding permission for the sale of jewels belonging to a mayorazgo.

50. Valuación de gemas. 1729. 5 l.
Petition and notification concerning the appraisal of jewels belonging to the estate and mayorazgo founded by Antonio Urrutia de Vergara.

51. Recibo por 100 pesos. 1731. 1 l.

Receipt for 100 pesos received by Manuel García de Pereda, owner of a store in Santiago Capuloaque, from the Conde de Santiago as partial payment for the bill of Sebastián de la Torre.

52. Carta para Diego Flores de Manuel García. 1731. 2 l.

Letter to Diego Flores from Manuel García y Pereda. Diego Flores urging the Conde de Santiago to pay a bill for supplies for the Hacienda de Atengo.

53. Memorándum de posesión. 1735. 2 l.

Inventory which Mariana Mejía Altamirano gave to Diego Osorio de Soto, escribano, specifying goods he is to receive following the death of her husband Agustín Urrutia de Vergara.

54. Escritura de capitulaciones y recibo. 1732-1736. 56 l.

The dowry of Ana María Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

55. Recibo por 350 pesos. 1738. 2 l.

Receipt from Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés for 350 pesos exchanged for jewels and furnishings received by Manuel Urrutia de Vergara y Estrada.

56. Declaración de posesión de la Hacienda de San Miguel. 1739. 2 l.

Esteban de la Puente declares Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés possessor of the Hacienda de San Miguel Tlaixpán.

57. Copia de recibo. 1739. 4 l.

Receipt for jewels, gold, and silver by Juan Javier Joaquín de Velasco Legaspi Albornoz Altamirano y Castilla, from Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés.

58. Despacho. 1741. 2 l.

Dispatch from Felipe V of Spain to Manuel Rodríguez de Pedroso suspending for six months his obligation to navigate the royal galleys.

59. Decreto del Virrey Conde de Fuenclara. 1744. 2 l.

Permission granted by Viceroy Pedro Cebrián, Conde de Fuenclara, to Diego Urrutia de Vergara y Flores to use a brand for his livestock.

60. Comunicado del Rey. 1752. 2 l.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Regla Papers

Fernando VI of Spain grants Pedro Romero de Terreros the title of Caballero de la Orden de Calatrava.

61. Regalo de joyas. 1756. 2 l.

Diego Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso Flores de Valdés donates jewelry to the Convento de Santa Clara.

62. Nombramiento de Teniente a Antonio Rodríguez de Soria Villarroel. 1760. 2 l.

Viceroy Francisco Cacigal de la Vega appoints Antonio Rodríguez de Soria Villarroel, Lieutenant in the Company of Grenadiers of México.

63. Elección de Antonio Rodríguez para Alcalde. 1764. 1 l.

Certificate of Antonio Rodríguez de Soria's election as Alcalde Ordinario más Antiguo.

64. Provisión del Virrey. 1764. 2 l.

Antonio Rodríguez de Soria is discharged by the Viceroy from his commission as lieutenant in one of the companies of Grenadiers of Mexico City. He is to pursue duties as Alcalde.

65. Real Cédula. 1769. 2 l.

Cédula granted to Pedro Romero de Terreros exempting him from paying lanzas (payments in lieu of military service) for himself and his children.

66. Escritura de obligación. 1746-1759. 4 l.

Documents concerning a loan to the Royal Treasury by Manuel Rodríguez de Pedroso in 1746, repaid in 1747. Also petition and decree concerning the copying of records of the loan.

67. Certificado de confirmación. 1767. 2 l.

Certificate of confirmation of María Josefa Rodríguez de la Cotera.

68. Título de nombramiento. 1772. 12 l.

Documents appointing Fernando Antonio Villar Villamil as Deputy and Captain General for the coasts and ports of the Mar del Sur (Pacific) and the Jurisdiction of Michoacan. Appointment made in anticipation of military actions by the British.

69. Confirmación de presentación de informes financieros. 1772. 1 l.


Confirmation by José Luis de Aragón that financial reports were sent in by Marcos Morales, administrator for the Mayorazgo de los Flores in Texcoco, and that they were presented to the Real Audiencia.

70. Certificados de bautismo. 1773. 6 l.

Several certificates of baptism: Antonio Evaristo Juan de Dios, Francisco Esteban, Catalina de Monuera, Miguel Rodríguez, Bárbara Marcelina, Juan Antonio, and Bernardina Josefa, all members of various branches of the Velasco family.

71. Cuenta de arrendamiento. 1773. 10 l.
Financial report for a house and store in Mexico City, reported by José Luis de Aragón, depositary of the estate of the Mayorazgo de los Flores, to the Conde de Santiago.

72. Certificado de bautismo. 1765. 2 l.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gaines Sequence



Certificate of baptism of María Josefa Ignacia Teresa Antonia Rafaela, daughter of Antonio Rodríguez de Soria Villamil and Gertrudis Ignacia de la Cotera y Rivas Cacho.

73. Cuentas por trigo. 1774. 1 l.

List of amounts owed by Diego Retana for loads of wheat; letter addressed from Molino de Flores.

74. Cuenta de gastos del Conde de Santiago. 1774. 6 l.

Expense account for a house belonging to the mayorazgo of the Conde de Santiago.

75. Cartas de Marcos Morales. 1775. 25 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Mariano Velasco from April 18 to December 19 reporting on the seasonal care and progress of crops, legal disputes, financial matters, and other matters of estate management.

76. Carta de Diego Retana para Mariano Velasco. 1775. 1 l.

Letter from Diego Retana to Mariano Velasco concerning wheat prices.

77. Carta de Marcos Morales para el Conde de Santiago. 1775. 1 l.

Letter regarding loads of straw sent to the house of the Conde; letter from Marcos Morales to the Conde de Santiago.

78. Cartas de Marcos Morales para Mariano Velasco. 1776. 24 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Mariano Velasco concerning the seasonal care and progress of crops. Also discussed are the sale of flour and lawsuits involving the cutting of wood by Indians.

79. Carta de Marcos Morales para Manuel Antonio Salinas. 1776. 1 l.

Letter from Marcos Morales to Manuel Antonio Salinas noting the scarcity of straw.

80. Carta de Antonio Piñeyro para Marcos Morales. 1776. 2 l.

Letter from Antonio Piñeyro of the Colegio de San Andrés of Mexico City requesting the attendance of Marcos Morales at the delivery of the Hacienda de Chapingo to Pedro Nicolás Caderecha.

81. Cartas de Marcos Morales para Mariano Velasco. 1777. 20 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Mariano Velasco regarding the seasonal care and progess of the crops of the Hacienda Molino de Flores; letters also note the effect of weather and continuing disputes over water rights.

82. Petición de informes de pulquerías por el Conde de San Bartolomé de Jala. 1777. 2 l.

Petition by the Conde de San Bartolomé de Jala for a certified report on the number of loads of pulque delivered the preceding year to his pulquerías in Mexico, as well as amount of duty paid. Also reports and certifications.

83. Carta para Marcos Morales de José Romero. 1772. 2 l.

Letter from José Romero to Marcos Morales about water rights.

84. Carta para Marcos Morales de Tomás Galicia. 1777. 3 l.

Letter from Tomás Galicia to Marcos Morales regarding the prices and sale of wheat and flour.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Regla Papers

85. Carta de Marcos Morales para el Conde de Santiago. 1778. 2 l.

Letter from Marcos Morales to the Conde de Santiago reporting amount of barley sent to the latter.

86. Carta para Mariano de Velasco de Marcos Morales. 1778. 11 l.

Letter from Marcos Morales to Mariano de Velasco regarding the seasonal care and progress of crops at the Molino de Flores. Letters also note sale of wheat and difficulty in procuring lime.

87. Carta para Marcos Morales de Mariano Velasco. 1778. 2 l.

Letter to Marcos Morales from Mariano Velasco thanking him for the sombrero and the meat he sent for the holiday season. Included is a request that straw be sent to the house of the Conde de Santiago.

88. Cartas de Marcos Morales para Mariano Velasco. 1779. 9 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Mariano Velasco reporting on the seasonal care and progress of crops from the Molino de Flores, also citing harvest results and the effect of weather and crop diseases on profits. Mentions epidemic of smallpox.

89. Cartas para Mariano de Velasco de Marcos Morales. 1780. 23 l.

Letters to Mariano de Velasco, Procurador for the Conde de Santiago, with details of the seasonal care and progress of crops. Also mentioned are harvest results, price fluctuations, taxes, and the effect of heavy frost.

90. Carta para el Capitán José Mariano de Velasco de Antonio García. 1780. 1 l.

Letter to José Mariano de Velasco from Antonio García asking that he defend his honor in a business transaction concerning the delivery of an order of bricks.

91. Carta para Mariano Velasco de Juan José de la Torre. 1780. 1 l.

Letter to Mariano Velasco from Juan José de la Torre concerning the collection of the Iguala tax by José Peñarroja, administrator of the alcabalas.

92. Cartas para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco de Marcos Morales. 1781. 23 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Capitán Mariano de Velasco, Procurador for the Conde de Santiago, reporting on the seasonal care and progress of crops. Also mentioned is a request by the government that a canal be built through the hacienda to conduct water to the saltpeter works in Texcoco.

93. Cartas para el Capitán Mariano Velasco del director Salvador de Dampier. 1781. 7 l.

Letter from Salvador de Dampier to Captain Mariano Velasco urging that he cooperate in the project of building a canal through the Hacienda de Molino de Flores which would conduct water to the saltpeter works in Texcoco, thus benefiting the Real Hacienda.

94. Testimonio del testamento de Pedro Romero de Terreros Ochoa y Castillo, Caballero de Calatrava, Conde de Regla. 1781. 20 l.

Copy of the will of Pedro Romero de Terreros Ochoa y Castillo, Caballero de Calatrava, (1st) Conde de Regla, originally written in 1775.

95. Cartas para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco Núñez de Villavicencio de Marcos Morales. 1782. 18 l.

Letters from Marcos Morales to Mariano de Velasco, Procurador, reporting on the seasonal care and progress of the crops; notes locust damage.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gaines Sequence



96. Cartas para Marcos Morales de Mariano Velasco. 1782. 1 l.

Letter from Mariano Velasco to Marcos Morales warning that Morales should not rent the Hacienda and Molino de Olivos until the ownership dispute is cleared.

97.Cartas para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco de Marcos Morales. 1783. 34 l.

Letters to Mariano de Velasco, Procurador for the Conde de Santiago, reporting details of the seasonal care and progress of crops. Includes discussion of family and social matters, and water rights disputes.

98.Carta para Pedro Nicolás Caderecha de Mariano de Velasco Núñez de Villavicencio. 1783. 1 l.

Disputes over water rights of the Molino de Flores and Hacienda del Batán.

99. Carta para Mariano Velasco de Pedro Nicolás Caderecha. 1783. 1 l.

Letter from Pedro Nicolás Caderecha to Mariano Velasco concerning water rights; a meeting is planned at the home of José Lebrón.

100. Cartas para Mariano de Velasco de Marcos Morales. 1784. 6 l.

Routine statement of loads of straw and barley sent to the Conde de Santiago.

101. Cartas para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco de Juan José de la Torre. 1784. 14 l.

Reports of the seasonal care and progress of crops, and the death of Marcos Morales.

102. Carta para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco del Conde de Santiago. 1784. 1 l.

Letter signed by the Conde de Santiago requesting the return of certain papers through Julián, a servant.

103. Carta para Juan José de la Torre de Mariano de Velasco. 1784. 1 l.

Letter assuring Antonio Francisco de Olazarán that he would be repaid money lent to Marcos Morales.

104. Carta para Juan Lorenzo de Velasco de Juan José de la Torre. 1784. 1 l.

Letter from Juan José de la Torre to Juan Lorenzo de Velasco about a lawsuit over pasture lands.

105. Cartas para el Capitán Mariano de Velasco Núñez de Villavicencio de Juan José de la Torre. 1785. 27 l.

The seasonal care and progress of crops reported by Juan José de la Torre to Capitán Mariano de Velasco. Notes the effects of hurricanes and weather, wages for employees, and the ruinous state of the property.

106. Cuenta de pago. 1785. 2 l.

Record of payments to capellanes listed by name, along with the amounts in the endowments.

107. Informe financiero de la Hacienda de Tulancalco. 1784. 2 l.

Financial report regarding the Hacienda de Tulancalco.

108. Fundación del primer Mayorazgo del señor Conde de Regla. 1785. 62 l.

Copy of the foundation of the first Mayorazgo de Regla, established by the first Conde de Regla, with three Reales Cédulas of Carlos III.

109. Informe financiero de la Hacienda de Batán y los Molinos de Flores. 1788. 23 l.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

Real de Tayopa - I had heard that Flipper went searching for Tayopa in the Yaqui country, but this could well be mistaken. I am going to stand by the statement that he didn't hunt for Tayopa in Arizona however.

Blindbowman wrote:

and to be truefull with you if i locate the vault and the curcifix is there that fits that church wall and it weight 40 lbs .. the question of what i found will be over right then .


i have no idea of what you found and i do not question it .. i question what i have found and i beleive i can locate this vault with out a dout ... i beleive when the church was in dangr they removed the curcifix and stored in a vault crypt ...

i think under a few inches of sand i well find a large stone slap covering a vault enterway all i can say at this piont is the part of the treasure trove list looks to have been stored there ,, if the cross is there and it its the church wall , that would dirrectly relate the treasure and the site togather as one and if the treasure trove list matches the items then this is in fact the tayopa of the list ... and that would be unmisteakable evidence ...

I don't know what to say amigo, as I still have numerous questions but don't wish to irritate you. For instance here in your statements it sounds like you have not actually found a vault but suspect that there is one, and the nails found in the pattern of a crucifix is something I would definitely not automatically conclude that must have been a crucifix, since there are different ways of hanging a crucifix, the most common being a single nail from which it is hung vertically, no need to nail it anywhere else. Finding nails in a cross pattern would suggest some kind of framing to me, not necessarily a crucifix. You say that you question what it is that you found, but appear to have reached conclusions and have proceeded from them - when the original questions remain not "locked" down.

I mentioned before how easy it is to make a mistake and then proceed to much further error - let me give you an example. Several coins were found in Kentucky and Tennessee that looked just like ancient Judaean (Hebrew) coins, and when word got out of this, quite a few articles then appeared and I believe at least one book that postulated a theory that a whole group of lost tribes of Israel had come to Kentucky, where they became one of the local Amerindian tribes. Unfortunately when several of these coins were examined by an expert in ancient Judaean coins, he found that they were modern fakes. Many of those articles which were based on the coins being found are still floating around on the internet etc with at least one saying this is proof of the ancestors of the Mormons etc when in reality we now know those coins were not made until the early 1900s. Those writers started off with an assumption (that they were genuine ancient Hebrew coins) and proceeded into huge errors since they didn't bother to be SURE of what those coins were FIRST.

I am not saying that you ARE mistaken amigo, only that it is possible that you might have mis-identified your discoveries. I don't know why you would be willing to quit and give up on it, simply because someone like me remains un-convinced of what it is - for if you have found something (and I do think you have found SOMETHING) then how could you simply forget about it? I will say this - if you do quit and give up on it, then I will definitely be convinced that you actually found nothing and have simply been playing a game here. The way you have stuck with it for all this time and made several trips to go investigate and search more, leads me to believe that you DID find something, but if you are willing to just quit then it must have been nothing, right?

I understand that Blindbowman has once again posted some documents and then removed them? Since I didn't get to see them I will have to conclude that they were simply not important. Blindbowman mi amigo, would you like it if I were to do that, post something and then remove it before everyone had a chance to see it? I don't know amigo, what to say to that habit of yours but it is certainly impolite.

If your Tayopa-in-the-Superstitions idea is to work, how were the shipments transported to the coast? Do you have a route they would have taken? Which sea-port would they have been using? Thank you in advance,

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

let me say i hope we are both right ... for the location we are at .. maybe we both found a Tayopa ...LOL

 

[the blindbowman]

HOLA mi amigos,

Real de Tayopa - I had heard that Flipper went searching for Tayopa in the Yaqui country, but this could well be mistaken. I am going to stand by the statement that he didn't hunt for Tayopa in Arizona however.

Blindbowman wrote:

and to be truefull with you if i locate the vault and the curcifix is there that fits that church wall and it weight 40 lbs .. the question of what i found will be over right then .


i have no idea of what you found and i do not question it .. i question what i have found and i beleive i can locate this vault with out a dout ... i beleive when the church was in dangr they removed the curcifix and stored in a vault crypt ...

i think under a few inches of sand i well find a large stone slap covering a vault enterway all i can say at this piont is the part of the treasure trove list looks to have been stored there ,, if the cross is there and it its the church wall , that would dirrectly relate the treasure and the site togather as one and if the treasure trove list matches the items then this is in fact the tayopa of the list ... and that would be unmisteakable evidence ...

I don't know what to say amigo, as I still have numerous questions but don't wish to irritate you. For instance here in your statements it sounds like you have not actually found a vault but suspect that there is one, and the nails found in the pattern of a crucifix is something I would definitely not automatically conclude that must have been a crucifix, since there are different ways of hanging a crucifix, the most common being a single nail from which it is hung vertically, no need to nail it anywhere else. Finding nails in a cross pattern would suggest some kind of framing to me, not necessarily a crucifix. You say that you question what it is that you found, but appear to have reached conclusions and have proceeded from them - when the original questions remain not "locked" down.

I mentioned before how easy it is to make a mistake and then proceed to much further error - let me give you an example. Several coins were found in Kentucky and Tennessee that looked just like ancient Judaean (Hebrew) coins, and when word got out of this, quite a few articles then appeared and I believe at least one book that postulated a theory that a whole group of lost tribes of Israel had come to Kentucky, where they became one of the local Amerindian tribes. Unfortunately when several of these coins were examined by an expert in ancient Judaean coins, he found that they were modern fakes. Many of those articles which were based on the coins being found are still floating around on the internet etc with at least one saying this is proof of the ancestors of the Mormons etc when in reality we now know those coins were not made until the early 1900s. Those writers started off with an assumption (that they were genuine ancient Hebrew coins) and proceeded into huge errors since they didn't bother to be SURE of what those coins were FIRST.

I am not saying that you ARE mistaken amigo, only that it is possible that you might have mis-identified your discoveries. I don't know why you would be willing to quit and give up on it, simply because someone like me remains un-convinced of what it is - for if you have found something (and I do think you have found SOMETHING) then how could you simply forget about it? I will say this - if you do quit and give up on it, then I will definitely be convinced that you actually found nothing and have simply been playing a game here. The way you have stuck with it for all this time and made several trips to go investigate and search more, leads me to believe that you DID find something, but if you are willing to just quit then it must have been nothing, right?

I understand that Blindbowman has once again posted some documents and then removed them? Since I didn't get to see them I will have to conclude that they were simply not important. Blindbowman mi amigo, would you like it if I were to do that, post something and then remove it before everyone had a chance to see it? I don't know amigo, what to say to that habit of yours but it is certainly impolite.

If your Tayopa-in-the-Superstitions idea is to work, how were the shipments transported to the coast? Do you have a route they would have taken? Which sea-port would they have been using? Thank you in advance,

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

i agree , i agree , i agree ...you mist it Oro look up at the 10 church photo above near the top of this page . Guaymas was the port of call at the bottom of a northward running vally , tayopa was the last church in the line and the frist to be lost in the indain raids , but when it was running they could move from church to church and hear what news was happeing at the time .. i would much rather go up and down a vally thenover a rough endless mt range ...and if anyone was really smart they would find out what ships left from guaymas between the years of 1571 -1646 ...there has to be ships records some where ..

"Guaymas
(gwī'mäs) , city (1990 pop. 87,484), Sonora state, NW Mexico, on the bay of Guaymas. A port on the Gulf of California, it is also the outlet for Hermosillo. Guaymas stands on a scenic inlet girt by desert mountains. Its fine beaches, excellent deep-sea fishing, and transportation facilities have made it a popular tourist resort. In addition to its role as a commercial center for the surrounding region, Guaymas has a substantial fishing industry. Although the surrounding area was explored as early as 1539, the city was not established until the early 18th cent. by Jesuit missionaries. U.S. forces occupied Guaymas in 1846, during the Mexican War, and it was held by the French in 1865–66.


----------------------

look atthat 1539 date . right between the target dates , early years of the time span .. i would so look at Hermosillo. its south of Santa Ana and most likely the closest large city at that time , this could help us under stand why Santa Ana was selected in the frist place....and santa ana was one of the 9 oldest churches of this area ...

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

Can you describe what the staircase looks like? The air at the bottom is bad, so you will need some means of breathing, once you get down there........Be careful.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

bb,

Can you describe what the staircase looks like? The air at the bottom is bad, so you will need some means of breathing, once you get down there........Be careful.

Joe Ribaudo

after you ! lol

i have small oxgen bottles for caveing ...i didnt know you cared , or is it , you just dont want to step over the bodies ...lol

what are you talking abot i plan to have 5-6 people go frist ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

i plan to have 5-6 people go frist .

Dang, how generous, why even Howard Carter would be impressed with such an act of grace and good manners! (Howard had to peek first into what we now know was the tomb of King Tut)

Guaymas? What about the actual trail/road they would have had to use? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

Don't really mind describing one of the mines:

On has a horizontal, spiral staircase down in a narrow, oxygen deprived tunnel. If you make it to the bottom, it sounds hollow. Perhaps board covered with a layer of dirt.

If that's what you are looking for, I don't mind telling you where it is.........or about where it is.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

bb,

Don't really mind describing one of the mines:

On has a horizontal, spiral staircase down in a narrow, oxygen deprived tunnel. If you make it to the bottom, it sounds hollow. Perhaps board covered with a layer of dirt.

If that's what you are looking for, I don't mind telling you where it is.........or about where it is.

Joe Ribaudo

the vault room i am looking for is 45 wide ft by 80 ft long by 30 ft high and about 60ft down ...

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

"the vault room i am looking for is 45 wide ft by 80 ft long by 30 ft high and about 60ft down ..."

Don't know the exact diminsions of the room beneath the seal, but if you are looking for Mayan faces in the tunnel, and a specific carved item about the size of a vollyball.......this might be it. You would need to make a deal with the Apache, or they might.....hinder your project.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

bb,

"the vault room i am looking for is 45 wide ft by 80 ft long by 30 ft high and about 60ft down ..."

Don't know the exact diminsions of the room beneath the seal, but if you are looking for Mayan faces in the tunnel, and a specific carved item about the size of a vollyball.......this might be it. You would need to make a deal with the Apache, or they might.....hinder your project.

Joe Ribaudo

lol thats a under statement ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I will answer a few questions since it seems that Tayopa is getting confused with incorrect data..

BB posted--> i did not see any thing here that says he even went to Spain at all...what are you talking about ..?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I suggest that you get to cracking on your research again. He was sent to Spain by Green specifically to find any data on Tayopa. The only thing that he found was the infamous "7 th of March " thingie.
***************************************************************************************

BB--> so far everything you have said about Cerro de La Campana is true of this location as well other then it using Tayopa as your observation point,is in the Pimería Alta not just Chihuahua
~~~~~~~~~~~~

True, but I only used that data AFTER I had found Tayopa for confirmation.

You were trained n Navigation, so merely establish a line of position fo rthe Sun on the 7 th of March 1600. using Tayopa as your point of referrence. It will pass directly over the Cerro de La Campan in Chihuahua , Conclusions?
***************************************************************************************

BB--> i posted that for a good reason it dose not have one name of any priest that was from Tayopa . "why because i dont beleive any priest ever left tayopa alife "
~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are joking I presume?
***************************************************************************************

BB--> thats funny the church is not adjoining the stone and mud room at site 4 ... that room is side the covent " as the list stated it should be ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm The only convent mentioned is at Guasapares, and that, much later.
***************************************************************************************

BB --> maybe where your site is incorrect for a reason ...at this piont i can only say it is where the list says it is ...and the details match my site 4 ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where is this site 4 ??
***************************************************************************************
HI oro, You posted --> had heard that Flipper went searching for Tayopa in the Yaqui country
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Yaqui were flatlanders. The Pimas and Tarahuamaras were the best known mountain people, but there were / are many others. However, Tayopa is actually found in the Guayajiro tribe country.
***************************************************************************************

BB--> and if anyone was really smart they would find out what ships left from guaymas between the years of 1571 -1646 ...there has to be ships records some where ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
True , but what would this prove?
***************************************************************************************
.
BB--> . i would so look at Hermosillo. its south of Santa Ana and most likely the closest large city at that
~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Sorry my friend ,Hermosilla didn't exist then, only Horcasitas, a fort. Also Hermosilla is far to the North West of the Santa Ana / Tayopa mine.
***************************************************************************************

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

"7 th of March " unless you know the rue locate of tayopa it would not help at all if related at all ..a date is not a navigatable peice of date .. date, hours and mintues, secounds could be ...

"7 th of March 1600" dont tell me thats how you did it .. you would be wrong if you did ...so what was the variation for a date you dont have ....?

" The only convent mentioned " it stated covent in the treasure trove list ...


"Where is this site 4 ?? " Arizona ,in the supers ...lol


"True , but what would this prove? "

all ship must have a ships log by national mariners law ...a ships manifest can tell you a vast amont of data .about its cargo where the cargo came from and what the cargo was and where it was most likely headed . as well as amont shiped and related location near the port of call ..often ships captains work with land captains knowing there movements . it could tell you shiping dates and over all amonts ...it could define what was sips and its over all packageing..it could even tell you when shipments were oveing to and from the port ...

often the ships manifest is the only way left to ID a ship wreck, why because often they are defineing why the ship was sailing in the frist place and when the ship sailed ...


"Hermosilla is far to the North West of the Santa Ana " NO ,it is not , what sant ana are you talking abut .. santa ana is about 105 miles north of Hermosillao near santa ana vieja

"Centered on the Plaza Zaragoza, Hermosillo's origin traces back to 1700, when several villages were founded on lands previously inhabited by Native Americans. The official foundation of the city comes in 1741 by orders of the Viceroy of New Spain to create "El presidio de Pitic." In 1783 it came to be named the Villa de Pitic, but on September 5, 1828, it was renamed Hermosillo in honor of general José María González de Hermosillo who in 1810 fought for the independence of Mexico in the state of Sinaloa. On April 26, 1879, the city was named the capital of Sonora, and that declaration was confirmed in article 28 of the state constitution, written on September 15, 1917.

we dont know what was at the site of Hermosillo before the 1700 date ..it dose not have to play any part between the churches ..or the trail north for that matter , it need only be part of the trade routes ...

in fact santa ana is about half way between Guaymas and the site 4 ,,,..this could help explan way they used Santa ana in the frist place ..

you got to take into acount that the lack of confirmed settiments works with this hyplothesis , these valllages and inhabited area had very little out side contact and just after the Aztec area was past they most likely did not trust many new comers ... we are talking between 1571 and 1646, a gray zone if you will . where the legend falls threw the cracks ,things like no record of Gonzalo's expedition . secercy of the jesuits and fransicans , waring tribes between the natives hopeing to be the next leaders, so we have a area of confuseion ,add the secerd place of tribes and even the words gold or silver and you got a vanishing act that could conseal smething for 4-500 years very easyly ...

and this is what i am looking at at site 4 ..

could the cross from the wall have been stolden by loters , yes but if you judge the size of the crucifics b the tayopa list .. it dose look like the discrption could very well be that of the cross missing ..

and if you really take a good look at the list secound paragraph what is there ,,

a crucific
a pair of candle holders
6 bars of silver
and four incensories ..
and the stated jewellery


if this is what is in the vault , it is very little next to the 3rd paragraph...

so ask my self is this a vault or just a stone box
...i have this area down to a workable site were 5-6 people could find this box and prove one way or another if this is tayopa . i dont know what RDT found that dose not even come into question to me ... i want to defind what is at site 4 , beyond that is have no interest in what others find else where ...

i know for a fact i have found something importain and what that is dose not fit know theories or hyplothesis as far as i can tell . but untill the cross is resting back on the wall i will not give up ...fact ...

could i be wrong yes , could anyone be wrong ,yes ... but till then lets wait to pass judgements ....

the question is not am i wrong . the question is ,i am right ?

 

[Old Dog]

BB

what you fail to realise is that on many of the ships that have wrecked of our coasts that carried Spanish loot.
many carried huge unlisted cargos. they were not headed for Spain and therefore felt "His Majesty" had no need to know what the ship carried....