tayopa, legend or reality ...?
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  1. #1

    Nov 2006
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    tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    legends are often surounded with little true evidence yet just enough to make a preson wonder if the legend could be true , Tayopa is the exception to this rule ...IMHo at frist i saw many reasons that Tayopa was nothing more then a wild treasure tail for the camp fires of our over active imaginations, and beleive me when i say i have as good of a imagination as any ...

    when started my research . i was looking into a area that i had a sighting of a odd event . yet i found the area rich in history and events that i would latter relate to a few diffrent legends and hyplothesis .. yet one fact has come to lighht ... the legend of tayopa is in fact real .. i ask my friend RDT . a question to see what his answer was .. but it was in fact a trick question .. i already know the answer i not only know the answer i can prove it with evidence . a few weeks ago i came across a set facters that define tayopa and as i started to work with the evidence i found the evidence fits my site 4 dirrectly ...i dont feel very safe gong into the mts that far with out protection ...and from what i know at this piont it may take 5 or 6 people to cover this area over a week or more to collect the evidence needed to prove the site . but one part of the legend has given me the clues to do so with in a reasonable dout IMHO i can prove site 4 is tayopa in reality ...


    i will wait for my friend RDT to reply before i explan ..my last statement ...
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  2. #2
    us
    Dec 2005
    Eugene, Oregon
    Fisher CZ5, White's GM VSat
    4,095
    126 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Uggghhhhh....


    Here we go again.

  3. #3

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffro
    Uggghhhhh....


    Here we go again.
    why where are you going ...lol
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  4. #4

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    THE EARLY SPANISH MISSIONARIES from the university of Arizona library



    Following closely in the wake of that army of daring adventurers, fired with the thirst for gold and glory, who conquered the vast empire of the Montezumas, and penetrated to the wild regions northward, came another army, which made up in fiery zeal what it lacked in numbers; an army proclaiming ‘‘peace on earth and good will to men,’’ whose standard was the emblem of Christianity, and whose mission was the spreading of the gospel among the tribes of the far South-west. Padre de Niza, as has been before stated, was the pioneer of the cross in what is now known as Arizona. He penetrated to the Cities of Cibola, and on his return to New Spain spread glowing reports of their richness and extent, which led to the expedition of Coronado. It has been charitably supposed that the father indulged in this exaggeration in the hope of extending the gospel of Christianity among the natives, but Coronado and his followers, disappointed in not finding the expected treasures, abandoned the country in disgust, and no efforts were made to establish permanent settlements in Arizona until more than a hundred years later.

    The first attempt to found missions in this Territory, then known as Pimeria Alta, was made by the Franciscan fathers in 1650, at the Moquis villages. The enterprise was undertaken under the direction of the Duke of Albuquerque, then Viceroy of Mexico. In 1680, the Indians rebelled, massacred many of the Spaniards, and the missions were abandoned and never reestablished. As near as can be ascertained, the first mission built in Southern Arizona, was at Guavavi, forty-six miles south of Tucson, in the latter part of the seventeenth century. The mission of Tumacacori was founded some time afterwards, and San Xavier, below Tucson, in 1694. In the same year, Fathers Kino and Mange, who had been active in establishing missions in Sonora, visited the Gila river, and were the first to thoroughly inspect the ruins of the Casa Grande. They also explored the lower Gila and Colorado. Father Kino was a true friend of the Indians, and labored untiringly to better their condition. He procured an order from the Audience of Guadalajara that his neophytes should not be apportioned out to work in the mines. Father Kino established several missions among the Pimas, who made rapid progress in civilization under the parental care of the humane priest. In 1720 there were nine missions in a flourishing condition within the Territory now known as Arizona. They were Tubac, San Xavier del Bac, Joseph de Tumacacori, San Miguel, Guavavi, Calabasas, Arivaca and Santa Ana. They were rich in flocks and herds, and in the products of the silver mines, which they worked extensively.

    ...

    note the last church listed , is Santa ana but note the date Kino died in 1711 and it dose not say kino founded the santa ana church ...it just stated it was one of the curches of 1720 that were nine missions in a flourishing condition within the Territory now known as Arizona.


    also note :The first attempt to found missions in this Territory, then known as Pimeria Alta, was made by the Franciscan fathers in 1650, at the Moquis villages. The enterprise was undertaken under the direction of the Duke of Albuquerque, then Viceroy of Mexico. In 1680, the Indians rebelled, massacred many of the Spaniards, and the missions were abandoned and never reestablished. As near as can be ascertained, the first mission built in Southern Arizona, was at Guavavi, forty-six miles south of Tucson, in the latter part of the seventeenth century....

    founding of tayopa church pre dates these site by around a 100 years by my target dates ,, look at the date of 1650 thats only 4 years after the 1646 date of the tayopa treasure trove list .. and where was it from santa ana church , this is the sorce of the stone tablets and the treasure trove list ...
    Mastiff4me and Real of Tayopa like this.
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  5. #5

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    there is a good reason why i posted the data above , look at where these churches are , now i could only place 6 of the churchs plus tayopa church at site 4 .. from the sea port of Guaymas north there are 7 out of the 10 churchs , tayopa would have been the 10th church and the most isolated of them all ...if this is true they would have shiped ore south to Guaymas from all of these areas , it makes sence , the churches would want to know what is happening and where and when ore is being shiped ...

    this also tells us most like tayopa was already destoryed by 1720 or by the death of kino in 1711 ...or kino would have made a statement about it ...so the stone tablets said they went 18 places , here is 10 churchs ,they may dug in 18 places but there were only 10 chruchs , the churchs were not the ones doing the digging ....


    i think the spanish were working the vally northward , its changes dirrection after the supersititions mts ...IMHO we are looking at Tayopa at site 4 , it makes good logic , that tayopa would have been the 10th church in the line of churchs ...even if the priest did not work the mines they did work the people ...lol often under the protection of the spainish , note when the bell had the names Sonora may not have been talking about sonora mexico , it could have been talking about Sonora AZ south east of site 4 . about 20 miles south east of florence junction ...a old silver mineing town ....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  6. #6
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    HOLA mi amigos,

    Blindbowman I realize that you continue to try to connect Tayopa with the Superstitions because you found the name "encoded" on the Peralta Stones, but have you really researched Tayopa? Even without the huge geographical problem, let us look just at the date. The date is important, because most traditions put the founding of Guadeloupe de Tayopa in 1632, which is some eighteen years before the first Padres bothered to enter Arizona to found missions in 1650. See a problem there? In 1632, Arizona was still the "wild frontier" even for the missionaries.

    So now I have to ask you a difficult question amigo:

    Are you claiming that all of the Mexican and Spanish archives, all of the Yaqui traditions, in fact everything related to Tayopa are ALL WRONG, since you have made the claim that it is really in the Superstitions and NOT in old Mexico?

    How you answer this simple question will tell me a lot amigo.

    I will not step on our amigo's (Real de Tayopa) toes, as he has done far more research into the true history of this incredible bonanza than I ever did. Actually if I were you, I would question whether it is truly the name "Tayopa" encoded on those Peralta stones, or perhaps something quite different? What about a KEY LANDMARK related to Tayopa amigo - Cerro de la Campana

    Oroblanco
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  7. #7

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    yes because we have problem that is not going away its getting bigger as i research site 4 .. this site out right fits Tayopa,s treasure trove list discription in a way that it can not be misteaken ...the reason i say that is the church at site 4 pre dates 1646 ... fact !
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  8. #8

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    how do i know this the treasure trove list of tayopa that came from the santa ana church is dated 1646 and the statement i ask RDT about is a very dirrect order of structure and can in no way be randomly placed at any site other then the true Tayopa .and it dose fit site 4 ...in that order ....if RDT has found the true tayopa he would know this set order ...

    so your answer is yes i do question everything ....do you under stand the question i ask RDT ...?
    Real of Tayopa likes this.
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  9. #9

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    HOLA mi amigos,

    Blindbowman I realize that you continue to try to connect Tayopa with the Superstitions because you found the name "encoded" on the Peralta Stones, but have you really researched Tayopa? Even without the huge geographical problem, let us look just at the date. The date is important, because most traditions put the founding of Guadeloupe de Tayopa in 1632, which is some eighteen years before the first Padres bothered to enter Arizona to found missions in 1650. See a problem there? In 1632, Arizona was still the "wild frontier" even for the missionaries.

    So now I have to ask you a difficult question amigo:

    Are you claiming that all of the Mexican and Spanish archives, all of the Yaqui traditions, in fact everything related to Tayopa are ALL WRONG, since you have made the claim that it is really in the Superstitions and NOT in old Mexico?

    How you answer this simple question will tell me a lot amigo.

    I will not step on our amigo's (Real de Tayopa) toes, as he has done far more research into the true history of this incredible bonanza than I ever did. Actually if I were you, I would question whether it is truly the name "Tayopa" encoded on those Peralta stones, or perhaps something quite different? What about a KEY LANDMARK related to Tayopa amigo - Cerro de la Campana

    Oroblanco
    how do you agree with that statement of tayopa being founded in 1632 when the bells were cast in 1603 inscribed Tayopa ...? common logic states Tayopa was older then 1603

    IMHO 30 years before they got their bells made ... thats around 1571 .. a acount that fits the tayopa legend and the site 4
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  10. #10
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    7,549
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    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    HOLA mi amigo Blindbowman,

    Blindbowman wrote:
    yes because we have problem that is not going away its getting bigger as i research site 4 .. this site out right fits Tayopa,s treasure trove list discription in a way that it can not be misteaken ...the reason i say that is the church at site 4 pre dates 1646 ... fact !
    So I take it your answer is YES that ALL of the legends, ALL of the archives, ALL of the Yaqui traditions and our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa are ALL WRONG.

    Your site "fits" the Tayopa treasure trove list description? In what way? It cannot be simply because you believe you have found an old church - for you must know that there were NUMEROUS churches and visitas throughout the southwest. If what you have found is in fact a church and in fact pre-dates 1646, then it would be the earliest church in Arizona and ought to be a national historical landmark. You should get the NF Rangers to go to the site with you in order to get it protected and identified for an archaeological dig - heck the tourists will want to flock to it just to see the earliest church in Arizona.

    Blindbowman wrote:
    do you under stand the question i ask RDT ...?
    Actually no I don't. I am still trying to understand your case that you are presenting to show that the real Tayopa is in the Superstition mountains of Arizona. You may be mis-understanding what Real de Tayopa has found - he has never claimed to have found the treasure trove associated with the Tayopa treasure trove LIST, he has found the original MINES, church and settlement (Real de minas). So how can a structured list prove anything about the MINES when he has not yet found the treasure trove?

    Okay - before we get any farther down this spiral, please SHOW ME the church amigo?

    Oroblanco

    Hmm while I was posting this you have posted another reply - Blindbowman wrote:
    how do you agree with that statement of tayopa being founded in 1632 when the bells were cast in 1603 ...?
    I have not seen any Tayopa bell with any date cast on it. You are relying on the Tayopa Treasure List found by Henry O. Flipper, a man who spent some considerable time hunting Tayopa. If you place this much confidence on the document, don't you also wonder where Flipper searched for Tayopa? (I can give you a hint - he didn't bother looking in Arizona). Then too, this date of 1603 is yet another strong indicator that it was NOT in Arizona, since there were no Spanish settlements in what is Arizona in 1603 amigo. Don't you see that as quite a problem in your theory?

    Thank you in advance...
    Oroblanco
    Real of Tayopa likes this.
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  11. #11
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Blindbowman wrote:
    guess why he didnt find it .. because he didnt look where it is ....
    Well that statement could easily be used to fit for many lost treasures amigo. So how do you explain the idea of a church in the Superstition mountains that pre-dates the arrival of Spanish colonists as well as missionaries?

    Please show me the church amigo? Thank you in advance,
    Oroblanco

    PS What about the key landmark associated with Tayopa, amigo - Cerro de las Campanas?
    Real of Tayopa likes this.
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  12. #12

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Blindbowman wrote:
    guess why he didnt find it .. because he didnt look where it is ....
    Well that statement could easily be used to fit for many lost treasures amigo. So how do you explain the idea of a church in the Superstition mountains that pre-dates the arrival of Spanish colonists as well as missionaries?

    Please show me the church amigo? Thank you in advance,
    Oroblanco

    PS What about the key landmark associated with Tayopa, amigo - Cerro de las Campanas?
    the key landmark is the mine it self ......LOL
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  13. #13
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Amigo they will never grant a permit to excavate a CHURCH - so it should be safe to show a photo or two of this particular building or ruin. Why not? A picture says a thousand words as they say

    What about Cerro de las Campanas? Your silence makes me think that you have no answer? Thank you in advance,
    Oroblanco
    Real of Tayopa likes this.
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #14

    Nov 2006
    1,379
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    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Amigo they will never grant a permit to excavate a CHURCH - so it should be safe to show a photo or two of this particular building or ruin. Why not? A picture says a thousand words as they say

    What about Cerro de las Campanas? Your silence makes me think that you have no answer? Thank you in advance,
    Oroblanco
    i have posted two picture related to the church here on the site already ... i dont plan to get a premit for the church ...LOL , remeber the vault is not under the church in this case ...LOl

    if your talking about the glass and potery . i dont see that as a land mark ...or are you talking about , a Spanish word meaning hill ..
    what dose the Cerro de las Campanas, mean to you ...?

    i dont speak spainish.. i dont want to learn spainish ...ether ...lol
    Real of Tayopa likes this.
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  15. #15

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    21 times

    Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?

    think about walking up to a area and pokeing a stick at the ground untill you hear a hole sound , then wipeing away the sand and rocks to see a large rock slap covering a stairway downward into a vault that has been missing for over 400 years ,, who cares if i am right , other then me lol ....you could have been there ....
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

 

 
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