Very old verge fusee pocket watch

[tamrock]

I'm out on the road and stopped by one of my favorite little roadside antique shops. They had a few pockets watches and most were low jewel 1940s and even couple 1970s quartz movement PW's. Then there was this one priced at 30 bucks. Felt no need to haggle on it and now I believe it's the oldest timepiece I have in my collection. The dial says Deroches AGENEVE. From what I'm seeing OL, this watch maybe be as old as 200 years. With all these unique treasures I'm finding, I'm thinking a lot of people have been cleaning out the house during these stay home orders and either tossing the stuff out, donating or selling them to antique shops and having yard sales. Me and my wife did and I tossed in a rental dumpster and hauled a bunch of stuff to the thrift store.

 

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[silverdollarbill]

daaaang....tamrock, you are on fire!

That watch is awesome....and with that color, gold right? 18k?

 

[Mackaydon]

tamrock,
You have a great eye for value; consider this:
https://jewelry.ha.com/itm/timepieces/pocket-pre-1900-/freres-deroche-geneve-gold-enamel-and-pearl-verge-fusee-circa-1810/a/5242-56137.s
Don....

 

[tamrock]

daaaang....tamrock, you are on fire!

That watch is awesome....and with that color, gold right? 18k?

It does look like 18k gold, and I'll have it checked out when I get home, but some of it looks like a gold wash.

 

[fano169]

100 percent 18k early 1700s

 

[Red-Coat]

I took a little time to think how best to respond here. With the proviso that I’m no expert on watches, I have a few comments.

The dial is signed “Deroches AGENEVE” (ie Deroches of Geneva, Switzerland) but the movement is signed “Breguet à Paris”. Might a Deroches dial be fitted to a Breguet movement? It’s possible, but I’m doubtful. Also compare your rather untidy signature on the left to the beautifully executed one on the right.



If it were a genuine Breguet movement, it would have to be late 18th Century. The Breguet workshop was founded in Paris by Abraham-Louis Breguet in 1775 and quickly became a supplier to aristocracy and then royalty. He worked on his own as a master craftsman, apart from a short-lived partnership with Xavier Gide between 1787-1791, and returned to his native Switzerland in 1793 when things turned ugly in Paris during the French Revolution. He then worked out of Geneva and didn’t return to Paris to begin re-establishing his business until 1795.

According to the authenticators at the Breguet business (it still exists), any 19th-century pocket watch bearing the signature “Breguet à Paris” is fake. They also say that none of the watches bearing the words “Spiral Breguet” were made by Breguet and that any pocket watch with an individual serial number higher than 5500 is also fake. [Note that this does not refer to the ‘55326’ number on the case for your watch. Your case was made by someone else but I can’t read the mark in your picture apart from the letters at the bottom, which look like ‘AL’]. In any case, around 1807 Abraham-Louis Breguet took on his son Louis-Antoine as his partner, renaming the firm "Breguet et Fils" (Breguet and Sons).

Breguet watches were the Rolex of their day and suffered the same problem. They were widely faked by Eastern European manufacturers… especially in the 19th Century and up to about 1910… to the extent that fakes are considerably more numerous than the real thing.

Note that in the example Don linked to, both the dial and the movement are signed “Fres Deroches A.GENEVE” (ie Deroches Brothers of Geneva, and not just “Deroches”). The typeface styling is also very different and I think this is not the same ‘Deroches’ as for your watch. I've superimposed the marks onto your watch for comparison:



There were at least eight (unconnected) companies making watches in Geneva and using the name “Deroches” during the late 1700s to mid 1800s and I wouldn’t like to say which of them relates to your watch, or what date it might actually be... but I'm leaning towards a 19th Century inferior imitation.

 

[Red-Coat]

100 percent 18k early 1700s

100 percent not early 1700s. See above; It has a purported Breguet movement and Breguet didn't exist until 1775 (although I think it's a later imitation anyway).

 

[tamrock]

You know the Breguet name, could very well have been put on to deceive, by a Swiss maker. I read where the Swiss in the past where notorious for faking well known watch names of the past. Now days it's China doing all the faux looking Cartier and the like watches.

 

[ARC]

https://www.ebay.com/i/324373577911...MIg8mc8Zy_7QIVg83ICh0hGge5EAQYCCABEgLAl_D_BwE

 

[Red-Coat]

https://www.ebay.com/i/324373577911...MIg8mc8Zy_7QIVg83ICh0hGge5EAQYCCABEgLAl_D_BwE

Again, the dial and the movement match one another... both signed Vigniaux à Toulouze and the signature on the movement is high quality engraving.

 

[Red-Coat]

Any chance of a better view of the mark inside the case please... the one that looks like it has AL at the bottom?

 

[tamrock]

Any chance of a better view of the mark inside the case please... the one that looks like it has AL at the bottom?

I'm home now and have my loupe and it appears to be double stamped with LEION. Also I do not believe the case is solid gold, but almost looks like a plate with either tin or pewter as a base metal. The bow and stem on the other hand may very well be solid gold as the bow is very worn down and the stem looks like it was incorporated into the case, as though it was a possible standard component made to add to watch cases or it was removed from another case and fused into this one. Overall this isn't a real precision made timepiece, but one made to sell at a cheaper price over the higher end watches, that only the very well to do could afford. This one was made for the average person who made a decent living that was affordable and had the look of what the rich guy would have in my opinion.

 

[ARC]

Its "Leton".

 

[Red-Coat]

Yes, AARC is correct. The ‘LETON’ mark is commonly seen on French watch cases made between about 1780-1820. It’s not a maker’s mark. It’s archaic French for the modern ‘laiton’, which means “brass”.

The maker is represented by the initials ‘AL’ (?) below. I don’t know who that is, but usually before 1789 there would be a crown above.

So I think your summary is probably correct. A lower quality timepiece with a fake Breguet movement and a plated/gilded brass case, probably made in the early 1800s (or possibly late 1700s)

 

[tamrock]

Here's an interesting story on early counterfeiting of timepieces produced by the Swiss in factories along the French-Swiss border and backed by a network of Dutch merchants. I feel this watch and other examples that look very similar with even finer engraving very well are timepieces produced by these ring of counterfeiters. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/fashion/watches-counterfeits.amp.html