My first sword and three Barbers!!Updated with pics of markings. I.D. help?

[bootstrap vinn]

Did an old park last weekend with my dad,my uncle and my brother.We did pretty good with a total of six silver dimes,4 V nickles and numerous indian head pennies and one wheat,I think. We went back today,minus my uncle who was sick but we took my brothers friend Dan32981 who is,by the way, now my friend too.Got to the park fairly early and started hunting. Running low discriminate so as not to pass up any gold or other ferrous metal relics,I dug a nail and then a couple bullet shells, then bang a sweet signal came eminating from my trusty little 1225X. Dug a plug and flopped it over,checked the hole,nothing there.Checked the plug,there it is a 1901 Barber dime in sweet shape. Re-checked the plug and hole,all clear. Then I noticed some dirt that had came off the plug as I flopped it out. Ran my coil over it and bang, a 1905 Barber dime! Two silver dimes in the same hole,Gotta love it! In the mean time little bro's diggin' IHP's and V nickles then Bang,he snags a gold ring with initials on it!
Around 11:00 I got a big overload signal by what appears to be an old cellar hole and almost didn't go for it because it was so close to the foundation but I could feel my coil bouncing up off from something hard under the pine needles and leaves.I reached down, cleared the leave and needles and saw part of something that appeard to be brass.I grabbed it and tried to pull it striaght up but I could feel it was bound by roots over the top of it. So I pulled it it straight back horizontally with the ground and it came out like a sword coming out of a scabbard. Guess what it was a sword!!! My first ever!!! Dan, who was about 50 feet away, saw me pull it out and said he saw my do a little happy dance.I don't recall it but I would say I probably did because I was totally thrilled with this find!!! When I showed it to my dad he recognized the broken end and said I dug this and left it because I only saw the broken blade end and thought it was just junk. Thanks dad!!!
We went to lunch and came back and I bet I wasn't at it 20 minutes and I got a sweet little signal on the slope going down to the river,dug a plug, flipped it, and out fell a 1912 barber dime in sweet shape,YEE HA what a day!!!
Thanks for reading and if anyone could help me with an I.D. on the sword it would be much appreciated. Good luck to all,
Bootstrap

 

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[Deno]

Now that is what we are talking about. Banner find for sure.

 

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[burglarifyoulike]

absolutely unbelievable!! (but i believe it )! congratulations! what a find! once in a lifetime!!

 

[Tnmountains]

Thanks for the reply and link TNmountains.I'm really curious as to what the #43 stands for as this does not seem to be a typical marking on these sabers.I'm hoping it can help trace the sword back to a particular soldier or regiment.
Thanks again, Bootstrap

Well I think identifying the maker mark gave you the manufacture, Emerson & Silver Trenton, N.J. & US C.E.W. Just looking at it tells you it is a Sabre.I researched that 43 on these swords as well. One thing I noticed was is they were a little more expensive then the Ames swords. The "1860" is like a model of sword say like a "Buick Cutlass "and the made that 1860 model for say 5 years so it all falls into the light 1860 category. I think the answer will be in the length of the blade and that will answer your numbers question. The numbers on that type of sword will run like this with variation..
Overall: 42-1/2 inches long in the Scabbard (Straight-Line Measurements), Saber: 41 inches long, with 35 inch Blade .
I would suggest studying the style tips and laying yours down and drawing it out(the tip) then measuring to rule out the #43 for total length.
I think the #43 was a reference number when assembling the swords and not an owner I.D
Hope I am wrong because it would be neat to know the owner but my guess is that is a very slim chance as the Swords were common and many survived and unless its on the blade or scabbord like a presentation sword you may never know the owner. But I guess the History really starts again on the day you dig the item. Sorry for the long post. Good luck.

TnMountains

 

[Tnmountains]

Well I think identifying the maker mark gave you the manufacture, Emerson & Silver Trenton, N.J. & US C.E.W.

Has the maker's mark been found and identified yet?

It sould be on the other side of sword than the US/JM(?)/Date

Yes from the inspector marks.

 

[Tnmountains]

Good research. So Maggs worked for Emerson/ Sterling ,Mansfield lamb and Providence tool company. Do you know what the 43 stamp shown above may mean? Be neat to help him identify his find. I had found the JM with emerson sterling not the others.

 

[ivan salis]

look at the inspector data -- swr kindly provided --- thank you swr for being very helpful --

it seems that john maggs was a inspector from 1861 thru 1863 at the providance (rhode island?) tool company which only made a total of 10,434 cavalry sabers but there was only 2 inspectors ---- during that time --clearly a small firm or not into cavalry sabers much.--so slpiting the amount in two --that 5,217 --possibles

after leaving providance tool company it seems he wemt to Mansfeild & Lamb working for them part of 1864 as one of their 3 inspectors -- during the war (1861 - 1865) Mansfeild & Lamb who only made cavalry sabers made a total of 37,485 during that 5 year streach --of which Mr Maggs was only there for part of a year 1864 as a "inspector"--using a adverage --thats only 7497 per year production *--or a rate 2499 per year per inspector (he was only with them part of a year-- so its unlikely that he inspected more than say 1250 possibles at best and thats if he was there half of 1864 )

it seems Mr Maggs the went to Emerson & Silver as a "inspector " one of 4 * ---some time in 1864 and worked there in 1865 as well ---- 1864 he used a "blade mark" (like the one on the sword)-- in 1865 he used a "pommel mark" --accord to the records shown --- worth noting --- in those 2 years Emerson & Silver made 27,060 of the model 1860* cavalry swords (sabers) the exact matching pattern & type of blade which is noted * using the numbers provided thats a rate of 3383 swords per year per inspector *and its noted on 1864 that he marked on the "blade" --- during his say 1 1/2 year time Emerson and Silver -- if he pulled his share ---maggs proofed more swords production wize-- 6765 in 1 1/2 years -- then he did in his 3 years at providance tool company --- so by the numbers made -with his mark ---best bet % wize is #1 Emerson & Silver - exact type made matches too--- #2 providance tool company --- #3 mansfeild & lamb

 

[ivan salis]

I mean that in the manner of where he was inspecting at -- of course he as a "inspector" was a us govt employee -- but at what place of sword making was he inspecting at? -- using the time frame he was there and and production numbers of that place can tel you roughly l the amounttof swords that passed thru his hands at each firm more or less on "adverage" . ---thus you can figger out which is the most likely on a % basis --- if say 40% of all the swords he imspected was for company A --and 10 % was for company B --and the other 50% was company C --it twice as likely to be a company A or C sword than company B --- and a bit more likely to be a company C than a company A one.

 

[waya55]

Bootstrap,
I'm brand new here and I only signed up about your sword and the misguided discussions on Kokoweef Peak.
As far as I can tell, and I spent over an hour searching the net and my memory, the sword you found is most likely made around 1884-85. If I'm not sadly mistaken (and that's fairly rare) it's a cavalry sword for the U.S.
but not necessarily an officers weapon.When you go to clean it up be very careful. The BEST thing to do is let it soak in the bottom of a large flat pan of some sort, you may have to make one, or a large empty fish aquarium that you no longer want. Lay it down flat {it would be best to rest the center and both ends about 4 inches in on 3 small pieces of wood with some sponge on top} and cover it ,make sure it's covered, with Marvel Mystery Oil. It's available at most auto supply stores.Let it soak for at least a week then wipe it off with a cloth. If there is any rust left on it soak it another week, and so on until it is all cleaned up. Be sure you get into all the nooks and cranny's too, this is important. Rust WILL make a comeback if given the opportunity. If you can find any markings on it at all, on the hilt usually where the blade enters it, that'll go a long way in telling you exactly what you have. They were also marked on the blade itself quite often, but that was later.
Congrats and good luck,
Bart :

 

[Tnmountains]

Bootstrap,
I'm brand new here and I only signed up about your sword and the misguided discussions on Kokoweef Peak.
As far as I can tell, and I spent over an hour searching the net and my memory, the sword you found is most likely made around 1884-85. If I'm not sadly mistaken (and that's fairly rare) it's a cavalry sword for the U.S.
but not necessarily an officers weapon.When you go to clean it up be very careful. The BEST thing to do is let it soak in the bottom of a large flat pan of some sort, you may have to make one, or a large empty fish aquarium that you no longer want. Lay it down flat {it would be best to rest the center and both ends about 4 inches in on 3 small pieces of wood with some sponge on top} and cover it ,make sure it's covered, with Marvel Mystery Oil. It's available at most auto supply stores.Let it soak for at least a week then wipe it off with a cloth. If there is any rust left on it soak it another week, and so on until it is all cleaned up. Be sure you get into all the nooks and cranny's too, this is important. Rust WILL make a comeback if given the opportunity. If you can find any markings on it at all, on the hilt usually where the blade enters it, that'll go a long way in telling you exactly what you have. They were also marked on the blade itself quite often, but that was later.
Congrats and good luck,
Bart :

Waya
Welcome to T-Net. It was nice to read your informative post. Look forward to seeing more.
TnMountains

 

[1liquigirl]

Wow Bootstrap, glad to see yours, could have $2.08 in clad from Indian Caverns hole today, but may be some silver, glad yours turned out with a sword. Waiting for it

 

[Discrimination Dave]

I'm gonna sound really really stupid here, but I just gotta know....
Would electrolysis mess up that lovely saber?

 

[obiwanmaui]

That is so cool that you found a sword

 

[spartacus53]

WOW, love that sword. That is a great find and don't clean it up!!!

 

[bootstrap vinn]

Thanks Obiwan and Spartacus,I haven't cleaned the sabre anymore than a little at the hilt and I did see the letters U.S. and the Initials JM but that was all. I'll probably just leave it as is. Thanks again,
Bootstrap

 

[silvercop]