Found and Restored: 17th Century Biscayne Trade Axe!!! - Page 2
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Thread: Found and Restored: 17th Century Biscayne Trade Axe!!!

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  1. #16
    Charter Member
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    Chronic Patriot/Metal Detecting,it`s My Lifestyle !

    Jul 2010
    "Kan-a-we-o-la" Head on a Pole N.Y. Seneca Territory of The Six Nations 1779..in Montour Falls NY
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1893602 Photo from the book " Swords&Blades of the American Revolution"
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    I`v been detecting for 52 years owned my own detector shop G.A.P. Metal Detectors here in N.Y.
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  2. #17
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    ARC

    Aug 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.A.P.metal View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1893602 Photo from the book " Swords&Blades of the American Revolution"
    I rest my case.

    "pole" vs "squared shaft"
    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  3. #18
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    ARC

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    Here are period "found and restored" examples.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  4. #19
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    ARC

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    Paleo... the "seam" inside the eye ?... does yours have this ? ? ?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  5. #20
    ca
    Feb 2009
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    Interesting read on link, regarding some reproduction pieces.

    https://www.furtradetomahawks.com/fa...pros---17.html
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  6. #21
    us
    Max

    Aug 2016
    Upstate, NY
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    I was where is this touch mark ref.?? Then I looked and looked and there it was in this photo. Seems like others have missed it as well.
    Yeah it is hard to spot with the way the photos appear in the post. I'd like it if I could put in blow-up photos, but they are high resolution photos so if you click on them to get the window and then click on them again they will fill the whole screen and the details like the touchmark can be seen clearer. Below are some up-close photos though which may make it easier to see even without the fullscreen view:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also is an expanded picture of touchmark #3 from the book for side-by-side comparison.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by paleomaxx; Jan 14, 2021 at 11:38 AM.
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  7. #22
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    Max

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    This was brought to my attention... Paleo... Unfortunately I do not agree... sorry man... and which in the grand scheme of things... who cares right ? ? ?

    There are a few "red flags" for this...

    Although its a nice find...

    1. The overall appearance screams modern to me.

    2. No fold... which means it was cast... and that makes it modern.

    3. Perfect cuts and angles also points modern.

    4. Deterioration of metal "pock marks" for lack of the real term in my mind right now... is not indicative of other heads of this period. (NOW this could be due to an "element situation")

    5. and..... most importantly... This "style"... IS NOT... a 16th century style hatchet... which is what it is... not an "axe".


    Sorry... but... hey... "it is what it is".

    LOve to be proven wrong.
    You're welcome to disagree; doesn't bother me at all, just allow me to post a few rebuttals to your points. I did do a ton of research on this piece and would love to post up some more of it!

    For starters it does indeed have a fold inside the eye. It's devilishly tricky to get a good photo of because there's no real contrast with the treated surface, but the below photo turned out okay:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    People may have to click on it to get the expanded view to really see the features, but it does have the classic seam from the butterfly of iron being folded over and hammered into the axe head shape. There's a neat diagram in Bouchard's book that shows the steps in the process:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    On your point about it not having a 16th century hatchet style you are correct. Keep in mind that Biscayne trade axes are a very specific product produced for the fur trade with the Native Americans. European hatchets produced for use by the colonists or even local blacksmith-made colonial hatchets could have been produced with different styles, weights, and quality.

    You mention "crude" as an overall look for other period pieces and I would agree that for a lot of locally blacksmithed iron pieces that's an easy way to distinguish older artifacts, but it's important to note that what was being manufactured for trade with the Native Americans may not have been crude. The furs that were being traded for were extremely valuable in Europe and continued trade was crucial for justifying repeated expeditions. Also it's easy to think of the indigenous tribes as being willing to trade for whatever they could get their hands on, but that may be a later bias as evidence suggests that indigenous tribes preferentially trade for quality items. Serpent muskets and trade silver were quality items were mass produced, but not cheaply made. The European traders wanted goods that were desirable so pieces like these trade axes would have been made to high quality standards at the time. Poorly made axes might have been rejected in favor of better ones and if word got around that your goods were junk, your supply of furs might dry up.
    Last edited by paleomaxx; Jan 14, 2021 at 11:58 AM.
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  8. #23
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    Max

    Aug 2016
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    Now the little one I found didn't have a touch mark, and it was the style that one would expect from a blacksmith folding the iron over and pounding it into shape.
    Pepperj, in regards to you point on the shape; the one that I recovered actually is a classic trade axe shape. They went through several iterations and it seems to have depended on where the trade axes were being made. Below is from Bouchard's book:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The type "A" style matches the piece that I found and according to the book was manufactured in France. The one that you posted seems to closer match the type "C" style:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Instead of being manufactured in France, these were manufactured in Canada around the 18th century. At this point production may have been moved locally to reduce costs or to increase available trading supplies, but not using the same blacksmiths so the final product was slightly different.
    Last edited by paleomaxx; Jan 14, 2021 at 12:10 PM.
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  9. #24
    ca
    Feb 2009
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    Thanks for the clarification on the head, and the added information on mine as well, this is much appreciated that you took the time. Mine would be classified as a belt axe as it's so small (still looking for big brother).

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1893678
    AARC likes this.
    "If it was easy-It would have already been done-Life 101."
    “I treat the outside world as one raw very warm wet chicken that has sitting out too long. wash and sterilize everything me touches.” — pepperj

  10. #25
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    Kim

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    Neat axe, nice research and cleaning, and I’ve enjoyed the follow up posts..Lots of points to think about.
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    The detector is my stethoscope to the earth, discovering the heartbeat of the past, to breathe new life into artifacts for us and the future.....

  11. #26
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    Nick

    Nov 2012
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    Great post and ensuing discussions...



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  12. #27
    us
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    Neat find!!! Its awesome that you were able to find the mark and identify it!!!

 

 
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