TVA Permit Issuance Suspended

[hillbillygal]

I'm new around TN but have read enough to see where some say as long as there isn't a sign forbidding detecting, go for it. However, I also saw where some have their TVA detecting permit and read online about the need for a permit on TVA managed properties and the application could be found online. All the links for the permit application were broken so I sent an email requesting a form be emailed to me so I could fill it out. This is the response I received:

Thank you for your inquiry on this activity. I wanted to give you an update on the status of our metal detecting guidelines. The Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) manages public lands and natural and cultural resources across the region for the greatest public benefit. Included in this responsibility is protecting over 11,500 known sensitive archaeological sites as required by multiple federal laws including the Archeological Resources Protection Act. Activity permitted under the current metal detecting policy has resulted in damage to some of these protected resources.

TVA is reviewing its current practice of issuing permits for metal detection on TVA-managed lands and is also considering consistency with the practices of other federal agencies charged with protecting federal lands. In particular, the National Park Service does not allow the use of metal detecting devices on property they hold in trust for the citizens of the United States. Renewal or issuance of new permits for this activity on TVA-managed lands remains on hold until a decision has been made.

TVA Environmental Information Center

I guess I'm a day late and a dollar short getting into the hobby. The properties I was interested in searching may actually fall under a park's authority that allows it on public sandy areas so I may still be able to search some. Just wanted to know what some of you wiser than me thought of this development.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I'm new around TN but have read enough to see where some say as long as there isn't a sign forbidding detecting, go for it. However, I also saw where some have their TVA detecting permit and read online about the need for a permit on TVA managed properties and the application could be found online. All the links for the permit application were broken so I sent an email requesting a form be emailed to me so I could fill it out. This is the response I received:

Thank you for your inquiry on this activity. I wanted to give you an update on the status of our metal detecting guidelines. The Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) manages public lands and natural and cultural resources across the region for the greatest public benefit. Included in this responsibility is protecting over 11,500 known sensitive archaeological sites as required by multiple federal laws including the Archeological Resources Protection Act. Activity permitted under the current metal detecting policy has resulted in damage to some of these protected resources.

TVA is reviewing its current practice of issuing permits for metal detection on TVA-managed lands and is also considering consistency with the practices of other federal agencies charged with protecting federal lands. In particular, the National Park Service does not allow the use of metal detecting devices on property they hold in trust for the citizens of the United States. Renewal or issuance of new permits for this activity on TVA-managed lands remains on hold until a decision has been made.

TVA Environmental Information Center

I guess I'm a day late and a dollar short getting into the hobby. The properties I was interested in searching may actually fall under a park's authority that allows it on public sandy areas so I may still be able to search some. Just wanted to know what some of you wiser than me thought of this development.

hillbilly, some may say that if there isn't signs forbidding detecting, then "go till told otherwise". But I always add to that, that if a person is skittish (ie.: extra cautious, .... like concerned there "may be" a rule down at city hall, which doesn't happen to be on a sign), that they can still satifsy that concern, by looking it up for themselves. Because it seems that every city and county nowadays has a website, where there is usually a subsection for city charter, muni codes, laws, park rules, etc.....

So those persons who you allude to that say "if there's no sign, go for it", are not necessarily advocating breaking laws, I think their point is that when there IS NO law (whether on a sign, or at city hall on the books). For example, in the case you cite, @ TVA, perhaps yes, there is "no sign", but this is a clear-cut case of an example of: even though there may be no sign, there is still some minutia in the boiler plate minutia downtown somewhere. So in this case, by all means, anyone is welcome to go research further, find the type verbage you have found, and presto, stay home.

Now that I've commented on that part of your post, I want to point out an interesting lesson that is played out in the response you got from TVA: Whenever there is a "sky-is-falling" type thread that comes onto the md'ing forums, people are quick to chime in that "it would all be wonderful, if we just had permits in every city, or state-wide, or nationwide, etc..." (like a hunting license or whatever, to put an end to all such arbitrary and capricious balogna). And at first knee-jerk glance, it *sounds* so good (who can argue with "permits" afterall? you just whip that puppy out, and everyone leaves you alone, right? )

But as your post shows, "permits" do nothing more than perpetually put md'rs on the radar. It's simply a never-ending "flag" that needs bureaucrat's princely say-so, as to whether you can do it or not, whether or not you'll harm earthworms, blah blah blah.

In other words "Permits" never seem to bring MORE FREEDOMS, they bring LESS FREEDOMS. It's simply another form of asking for permission. And we all know what the easy answer to the "can I?" question is!

While the TVA may be "too late", and an actual real rule exists (or is in the works), but let this be a lesson for the rest of us, that the LAST thing you want, it to be on a bunch of ivory tower people's radars, looking for their sanctions and clarifications. If it's not expressely prohibited, then no, don't go asking. Just go. Using obvious discretion, of course, not to go waltzing around in front of archies!

 

[hillbillygal]

Thank you for the reply. I was hesitant to try and apply but when I saw that other here had already gone through the process and spoke about how easy and accommodating they had seemed, I figured it would be the best bet.

I fully understand about trying to remain respectful and under the radar and that is how I ended up looking up the regulations and researching further here.

I thank you for your help and advice and will definitely keep it in mind for future situations.

 

[Edmundruffin]

TVA is facing a series of problems.
1. Crumbling infrastructure, those Depression era dams are not getting younger. The last floods damaged dams and bridges.
2. More demand placed on the same supply that existed by 1952.
3. Pollution, both agricultural and self - made. ( can't blame them 100% on this one)
4. Promised retirements and pensions ( the number crunchers missed the baby boomer retirement, insurance, and other health related expenses for employees.
5. The recreation industry, sure they will tell you they are in the energey producing, flood control, (not related to the recreation that has injected millions of dollars into the local economies around the river.
6. If you will look at all the above, they are in the process of paying for the East Tennessee Ash Spill that affected all the above five issues. Paid the farmers, homewners, business, recreation sites, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, yet the TVA is not in the business of anything butt energy and flood control.

www.jacksonsun.com/.../Paradise-lost-Campers-say-TVA-rules-struct...

This is a good read on how the TVA is trying to gouge the long time river residents to repay the ASH SPILL. Enforcing old laws that have not been enforced in twenty years. They will win in the end because they have the energy tiger by the tail.

"Daddy got a job with the TVA, got a washing machine and a Chervolet, song , song of the South sweet potato pie and I SHUT MY MOUTH"

 

[Tnmountains]

Tva will nail you on a river. They patrol and act like boot thugged cops. I use the water ways to hit some of my spots but make sure I have permission. Lots of land to hunt in Tn though. Not one county did not have a battle at one time or another.

 

[tndigger]

Thank you for your inquiry. TVA must balance public use of its managed
lands with its legal responsibilities to protect both natural and
cultural resources. Based on the results of a recent evaluation, TVA has
changed its guidelines for metal detecting and will no longer allow this
activity on its managed lands in order to ensure the protection of
sensitive, protected archaeological sites.

Environmental Information Center
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 9:31 AM
To: Law, Charles W; EIC
Subject: EIC: Question from website

On Monday, September 3, 2012 at 09:30:37, the following data was
submitted from TVA: Environmental Information Center

EIC Question
Question: I have just found out that T.V.A. are
withholding metal detecting permit's for recreational use, and find this
disturbing.I live near the lake I pay my electric bill every month as I
have for the past 47 yrs. not letting someone enjoy their sport at the
lake just like the boater's , fishermen , camper's , muscle diver's,
commercial fisherman, riverboat's ect. all who use this lake in their
own way reap from it's benefit's, I indeed feel this is wrong. I have
lot's of detector friends and they are all great people with high
regards of the land they hunt, I am not sure of the reason why you have
done this, so a response would be the cordial thing to do.

thank you

 

[Sandman]

You can blame it on the Archie's for wanting to save all the artifacts for future generations. But how is it for future generations if no digs are planned?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

You can blame it on the Archie's for wanting to save all the artifacts for future generations. But how is it for future generations if no digs are planned?

Sandman, this is a common objection brought up by the private relic hunter ranks. I mean, because let's face it: at the pace that the archaeologists dig (little square pits, that take a week or two EACH to do), that there is no way, that even the most WELL FUNDED university archaeological program can even begin to scratch the square footage, of even a single federal park's land (which can be miles and miles of square footage). All they can ever do is a teensy sample here, and a teensy sample there. And only then-so, on hot-spots around particular obvious historic monument type stuff, NOT just random country sides, etc.... So logic dictates that there's no way in h*ck they'll ever "save" all the artifacts, in the entire country. Doh.

But here's their answer: Maybe not this century, or the century after. But in hundredS of years from now, you never know if this exact spot might not be something culturally relevant to future generations. Ie.: you can not predict where things will be built, developed, studied, etc... in the future, so you can not "take that chance".

And another answer: Perhaps that modern coin or jewelry (on that modern federal beach or campground) isn't an archaeological resourse NOW (ie.: over 50 or 100 yrs. old now), yet in ..... 50 to 100 yrs. from now..... it .... doh ... WILL BE "over 50 or 100 yrs. old" at THAT time. So you've "robbed" future generations of learning about their past. Doh! (I'm just giving you the devil's advocate answer, because these are actual answers they'll give, when pressed!)

And just quite simply, even if they acknowledged that there is utterly no value to stop someone from plying this hobby, in an area of no present or even future archaeological studies, yet, let's face it: Some places, we can all admit (Shiloh, Bodie, etc...) *should* be preserved. Even we would admit that some things .... sure .... are sacred But if they start down the road of admitting: "ok, well yes you can md at this park, but no, not at that one". Or "yes on this 100 acres, but no, not at the historic cabin on the west end of the park", blah blah blah. If they start delving out concessions, it will just turn into a rat's nest of management, rules, clarifications, and people "pushing the envelope" constantly. So, therefore, it is just MUCH easier to say "no metal detecting". I mean, can you blame them? But you tell me: if you are in the middle of the Mojave desert, does anyone really give a hoot? But sure, if you ask them, they're obliged to give you the technical answer.

 

[wetfly]

Sometimes it really is better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission!!

 

[0121stockpicker]

Yet these gov orgs, along with the park system have absolutely no problem letting ATVs and snow mobiles rip up the ground. No offense to all the atv owners on the board - just pointing out the absurdity. They also had no problem sinking entire historical towns and villages beneath the lakes they created! Now they decide to get all high and mighty!!

 

[Edmundruffin]

Rumor is the TVA is pushing this "no attachments to the lot issue" in a attempt to offer late permits with a late fee to pay for the ash spill. If this is true then a class action lawsuit will follow. Thousands of plantiffs against the TVA? The right lawers and a sympathetic judge? Hard to beat the government. If they lose the suit they will raise the electrical rates. A win- lose situation.

 

[CARBIDE]

Rumor is the TVA is pushing this "no attachments to the lot issue" in a attempt to offer late permits with a late fee to pay for the ash spill. If this is true then a class action lawsuit will follow. Thousands of plantiffs against the TVA? The right lawers and a sympathetic judge? Hard to beat the government. If they lose the suit they will raise the electrical rates. A win- lose situation.

Its not just metal detectorS You are not even allowed to pick up an Arrowhead lying in plain site because of national archeological rules. Butthey can dig up every grave they want to for historical study. Guess it wont be long til they start digging up Civil war graves to study how they lived and died. it been about the magical 150 years for them Right? But WE can do so much damage to the past digging may 1 in every 5 or 10 pieces of history that my be down there. They Dig and sift every inch of dirt and we are the problem . funny how when the upper class want something it taken from us ? jus my Thought.,

 

[Madmox]

Its not just metal detectorS You are not even allowed to pick up an Arrowhead lying in plain site because of national archeological rules. Butthey can dig up every grave they want to for historical study. Guess it wont be long til they start digging up Civil war graves to study how they lived and died. it been about the magical 150 years for them Right? But WE can do so much damage to the past digging may 1 in every 5 or 10 pieces of history that my be down there. They Dig and sift every inch of dirt and we are the problem . funny how when the upper class want something it taken from us ? jus my Thought.,

This is quite the necropost. The last reply here was back in 2012

 

[metrotec]

I'm thinking the TVA (federal police) no longer exist. I do know that in certain river systems the police that patrol TVA waters/shore lines are hired as a private police agency, and you are right, they are a---holes, as were most TVA police. I knew several, having worked for 26 years on one of their very controversial reservoirs, river systems.
TVA and other agencies that control land/waters for TVA DID write a metal detecting permit, for their recreation swimming beaches ONLY.
When TVA lowers the lakes/rivers for Winter pool , flood control, a lot of people hunt the shore lines and American Indian villages for artifacts. Some actually dig these sites and some even dig the graves, which is illegal, even as far as picking up flints, which are visible, just lying on the ground. It is a $100 fine for each flint, bead, worked stones plus court cost. Some go as far as digging at night under a canopy to avoid detection.These guys not only ruin some areas but could uncover bodies which they have no qualms about. How would you feel if someone dug up your grandfathers grave and threw his bones aside?
Be careful if you dig, pick up or just walk around these shore lines, you will get arrested. In some of the river systems there is also French and British artifacts.
There are metal artifacts in some of these villages, copper, lead, silver,gold and some are priceless. Why would you want something that you cannot show off to the public or friends?
I understand that there a metal-hunters that just want to Just hunt the swimming areas for coins and rings, but TVA cannot pick and choose because some, some go too far.

 

[OcdChaos]

I’ve only been detecting a couple of years, but I remember hearing that you didn’t want to be messing around hunting on TVA land, as they were pretty strict...