Does a "no" apply just to the guy who asked?

[TheSleeper]

I really do not want to get into another heated debate, so I will just add my two cents and you can take it or leave it.

I never ask the lower level employees for permission. The state parks that I have hunted I went straight to the park superintendent, presented my case including the benefits to him/her for allowing me to hunt the beach and water and awaited his/her reply: I have never been turned down.

The parks I hunt, I go straight to the head ranger, the ranger in-charge of all the parks(in my city all the parks are governed and watched by rangers), again I presented my case along with the benefits of me being allowed to hunt, stressing the small of disturbance I do to the soil.

I do not go to just any tom, dick or harry(No insult meant if these happen to be your name, just an example), I always go to the person in-charge present my case and await their decision.

This is where I see most people making their mistake, going up and just asking any person who happens to be working there. Most are only working for a salary or worse hourly, and do not know the rules, so ignore them, go to the person in-charge of where ever it is you wish to hunt and present your case. Make important facts known ie: beach and sandy areas explain how many hooks, sinkers with weights attached, sharp pieces of metal, you have removed from other sandy areas/beaches. How each piece is one less child or adult who could have been injured.

We, serve a very important job to the public, we clean up the areas they wish to go to for pleasure, we remove sharp objects which could cause harm to them or other people, all of this at no charge to the city, state or municipality. SO, always stress that you are performing a valued service for them, by making their park, beach, etc safer for those who go there to enjoy themselves.

Most people that are contacted for permissions, only think of one thing when asked: Ohh they want to dig my park, beach, etc up for coins, jewelry and treasures, they do not even associate how helpful we can be to make their areas safer.

I have even gone so far, as on one state park I was allowed upon on a trial basis, to return to the superintendent with a bag to show him (in this particular case) all the sharp, rusty, corroded objects I removed from his beach.

Hence it falls upon us to educate them.

I know some of you may not agree with this, I'm not telling you to do it, just explaining my way of doing it.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

sleeper, your advice of "going to the top" is justifiable for the reasons you state. So for example:

1) A "mere" teacher" or "mere school janitor" might not have the authority to say "yes". So in that case, you wouldn't ask those 2 "mere" employees. You would go to the prinicipal, right ?

2) If you show up at a park, and see a young fellow park worker emptying the garbage cans, you don't ask him, right ? Afterall, he's a mere employee who may give the wrong answer. So you spot a higher ranking official driving a city truck off in the distance. You consider asking him, but ... it occurs to you, that he too is "merely an employee", so ... you go to city hall instead, going higher and higher up the ladder, right ?

But question for you: In the examples you've given, even the "park superintendent", when you think of it, is also a "mere employee". There are persons higher than him in the pecking order. Or the "ranger in charge" you allude to (as opposed to lowly rank & force "rangers") is also at the behest of others, in the district offices, or state capitol, etc...

So what's to stop you (or why shouldn't you), go higher yet ? I mean, it's entirely possible that someone (even after thinking you gone as high as you need to), can come up and gripe. You cite your name, or whip out your permission, ONLY to find out your talking to the mayor, or some higher up than whomever you've asked. Who promptly "dresses you down", revokes that permission, and you end up feeling like a criminal, right? So to SOLVE that, it's been suggested, as you're doing here, to "ask at the very very highest rung".

So why stop at the persons titles/ranks you've given ? Seems to me you need to go higher up "to be safe", "to be sure you're getting the right info", etc....

 

[jeff of pa]

I really do not want to get into another heated debate, so I will just add my two cents and you can take it or leave it.

I never ask the lower level employees for permission. The state parks that I have hunted I went straight to the park superintendent, presented my case including the benefits to him/her for allowing me to hunt the beach and water and awaited his/her reply: I have never been turned down.

The parks I hunt, I go straight to the head ranger, the ranger in-charge of all the parks(in my city all the parks are governed and watched by rangers), again I presented my case along with the benefits of me being allowed to hunt, stressing the small of disturbance I do to the soil.

I do not go to just any tom, dick or harry(No insult meant if these happen to be your name, just an example), I always go to the person in-charge present my case and await their decision.

This is where I see most people making their mistake, going up and just asking any person who happens to be working there. Most are only working for a salary or worse hourly, and do not know the rules, so ignore them, go to the person in-charge of where ever it is you wish to hunt and present your case. Make important facts known ie: beach and sandy areas explain how many hooks, sinkers with weights attached, sharp pieces of metal, you have removed from other sandy areas/beaches. How each piece is one less child or adult who could have been injured.

We, serve a very important job to the public, we clean up the areas they wish to go to for pleasure, we remove sharp objects which could cause harm to them or other people, all of this at no charge to the city, state or municipality. SO, always stress that you are performing a valued service for them, by making their park, beach, etc safer for those who go there to enjoy themselves.

Most people that are contacted for permissions, only think of one thing when asked: Ohh they want to dig my park, beach, etc up for coins, jewelry and treasures, they do not even associate how helpful we can be to make their areas safer.

I have even gone so far, as on one state park I was allowed upon on a trial basis, to return to the superintendent with a bag to show him (in this particular case) all the sharp, rusty, corroded objects I removed from his beach.

Hence it falls upon us to educate them.

I know some of you may not agree with this, I'm not telling you to do it, just explaining my way of doing it.

actually when I ask I like to start at the Bottom of the Barrel & work my way up.

At a Boro Pool that is the Teen who is either a Volunteer or working for Minimum Wage.
then Grounds keeper.

Parks it's person walking in park, then Cop or grounds keeper depending on first seen

Public property otherwise, Cop or Groundskeeper , then boro or twp.
again whoever is first visible.

If I get a No , and really want the spot, I can jump forward 1 or 2 spots and maybe get a yes.

It's like if " Mom says no to the piece of candy" go ask Dad
if that dont work is Gramma or Grampa Handy ?

another Village in my area, I pulled the Cop over,
asked if I could hunt the Town Square.



He said They will never allow that.

I asked if he mind if I try to go over his head.
He told me where the Boro Hall was.

By the time he got there too, I had permission

one of the local business busy bodies complained & told me they changed their Mind.

The boro & cop told me to ignore Him.

again If I had gone to the Mayor, or waited for a Town Meeting to put it before
the Town Elders or whatever the local busy bodies call themselves.
I may have gotten a No with no body to run to

Trust me

Start at the bottom.
even if you get approached you have a scape goat to point at as you apolgize
or decide if there is someone higher yet.

& I don't believe that is a bad thing.

 

[TheSleeper]

Tom, I do understand your train of thought.
As far as schools are concerned, I cannot answer as I do not hunt schools, hence your knowledge is greater than mine.

The State Parks I have researched, the Park superintendent is/has the final say to the daily running of the park and permissions pertaining to metal detecting.

The local parks, again the Ranger has the final say in the daily running of the city parks and permissions pertaining to metal detecting.

In neither of these two scenarios, is there a license. There is only one beach in my area that requires a license and that is due to unexploded munitions.

So my reply is not a blanket statement pertaining to each and every different location one might wish to hunt. Yes each of them has a higher up, so to say, but these people on the daily running of said locations have the ability to grant or deny permission which then would be accepted by any employee beneath them.

Tom, if in your example the said, Mayor approached me. I would simply show him/her all the hazardous materials I had removed from his park, beach etc, explaining his Park superintendent, ranger, granted permission with the best interest of his civilian population that was going to visit said area for their enjoyment. Hence I was serving a valuable service by removing said hazardous materials before anyone could be injured by them. All I might add at no cost to the city, state or municipality.

I am performing a free service to them, keeping their parks, beaches, waters safe from sharp metallic items which could and do injure hundreds of tourist a year.

The main point I am trying to make Tom, is that to, too many, we are looked upon as merely trying to find lost coins, jewelry and artifacts, while that may be true, at the same time, we are also serving a much more realistic service by removing dangerous objects that can and do injure many people a year.

By appealing to their sense of safety, we can paint a new picture of ourselves, one that shows us as protecting the public from dangerous objects.

Its the Washington two step Tom.

 

[TheSleeper]

Jeff, I totally understand what your saying.

It has to do with the perspective those in charge have of us in this hobby, by changing that perspective to one of actually protecting the public by removing hazardous materials, ie: needles, rusted metals, nails, etc, they gain an insight into our world that they did not have before.

They see us as pirates, willing to do anything to find that hidden coin or trinket, willing to destroy a manicured lawn if need be to do it(their perspective not mine). By showing them or enlightening them of our other service, removing dangerous materials, it opens doors once closed to us, for then we are a valuable resource.

PS Jeff, that's one lovely park, esp with all those little spots in the picture just screaming, yes there is a silver coin buried here

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Patience is running out.