Fined in San Francisco

[Tom_in_CA]

..... far better than letting their dog crap everywhere! ...

I bet if you searched the legal annals far enough and long enough, you'd find someone who got a $60 ticket for leaving their dog's poop in a park. So that analogy is not exactly accurate to this one (tickets for md'ing have their equals for dog-poop tickets too).

But let me ask you this: When was the last time you ever heard of a dog owner approaching city hall asking "Hi can I let my dog poop in the park and leave it there?" Never, right ? Thus why then do we md'rs think we have the need to go ask at city hall "Hi can I detect and dig in the park please ?"

 

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[etex]

Give them $60 in nasty zinc pennies

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I remember on some forum years back 1 detectorist in CA was saying they knew of someone who detected San Francisco's Golden Gate City Park every day!! That ordinance was 1981 & I know we didn't have internet so the detecting there was certainly after that. So presumably the person was there dozens, hundreds or thousands of times detecting. How could they be there so many times without the fines piling up?....

I personally know a guy who's detected SF city parks since about 1976 or '77. And I'm talking thousands of times at EVERY single one of those parks. Starting from the days when VLF/TR's were still the norm, and then was amongst the first to swing a 6000d in those parks. Back in the days when 10 to 20 silver days were not un-heard of. The guy is amongst the legends there. And he has NEVER "gotten a ticket". Oh sure, a scram now and then I suppose. But conversely, he's on a first-name basis with other park workers there, who clue him into when park demolition scrape projects are slated.

....Anyone know the current law for Oakland Parks? Just asking as I seem to remember maybe 20-30 years ago they required a permit that was a large (for then) amount, possibly $75? They were afraid of damage I guess & $75 from each person might cover it. But, the club had an arrangement where they would teach non-destructive digging techniques & anyone that joined the club would get as a bonus a free annual detecting pass, IIRC, which I may not!

If there is, it's for the county parks there. Not the municipal city of Oakland. To my knowledge Oakland has no such thing. I've detected Oakland parks and never had a problem.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Anyone know the current law for Oakland Parks? Just asking as I seem to remember maybe 20-30 years ago they required a permit that was a large (for then) amount, possibly $75?

I don't know about the Oakland City parks - I don't see any direct regulation for those parks. I doubt you can legally detect in all the city parks. One of the parks is the Oakland Zoo. Beeping for dimes in the ostritch enclosure is probably off limits. I'm sure you can think of other places where it would be silly to think you could detect even though there was no law against it.

The regional parks do allow detecting with a $20 permit. The permit is good for two years. $10 a year for all 65 parks seems pretty cheap especially when you consider the fine for detecting while not having a current permit.

 

[BigWaveDave]

Were it me...I would have also gotten a ticket for littering, after I crinkled up the ticket, throwing it on the ground in defiance.

(yea, probably wouldn't end well)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I doubt you can legally detect in all the city parks. One of the parks is the Oakland Zoo. Beeping for dimes in the ostritch enclosure is probably off limits.......

Uh, I think that's pretty self obvious. Yet has no bearing on the fact that Oakland city has no specific "no metal detecting" rules for their parks . Sure, outside the *obvious* spots (in the lady's bathrooms too is probably a no-no, etc...)

 

[boogeyman]

Is it worth it to you to fight the citation? $60 is a good chunk of change!!

FIGHT IT! You have a better chance of winning or having it thrown out. When you fight it remember you have the right to subpoena any witnesses against you and materials. The officer / ranger has to show up (74% of the time they don't show unless it's a small town). You subpoena his training records etc etc. The court will look at this and if not brain dead figure out it'll cost more in man hours transportation etc. to get the info to the court. They'll dismiss it.


Same with radar tickets. Subpoena the officers training records, the radar gun, it's service - calibration records, the officers unit & service records. What you've done is cost them more than the fine, tied up a unit, an officer, and then there's a radar gun not out there generating any revenue. I'll probably get blasted but I've done this 4 times over the years and it has worked every time. Usually you'll show up at court and won't find your name on the list. They'll tell you you need to go see the Da. After waiting a long time an assistant Da will walk out and tell you they decided to throw it out, with the obligatory "Guess the notice got misplaced" all the while smirking. It's their way of saying screw you. If the cop doesn't show it'll get thrown out.

BTW In California it used to be on the books that an officer had to be in full uniform driving a marked unit to write a cite. So if the officer ambles up to your car without his hat on, guess what? thrown out.

Always fight a citation! They expect us to be too busy with our little lives to show up to fight it and just write a check. Check out some of the legal beagle sites, you'll see the worst that happens is a lower fine if you lose. The courts don't have the time to dance with us so they get what cash they can and move on to the next case. The most important thing is if you get it thrown out lord forbid you get stopped again or caught digging it won't be on your record so no priors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

boogeyman, I know you're talking "principle" and and not money. Because OBVIOUSLY all the steps you're talking about (time spent, headaches, etc...) are NOT worth $60. They're only worth principal and pride.

HOWEVER, in the cases I gave where persons I knew got these extremely rare tickets, and elected just pay them, I'm sort of glad they did. Because guess what can happen if you fight them and loose ? You might just end up putting this "front and center" for all cops/rangers who hear of this, to NOW BE AWARE of supposed evils of md'ing.

And unlike fighting a speeding or radar ticket, md'ing has admitted connotations.

Hence if a person has time and energy, fine. But if not, then the net outcome of just paying it, isn't much. Odds are, the cop will forget about it, the md'r will forget about it, and you can detect THOSE VERY SAME PARKS till you're blue in the face forever more.

Same for bootings or scrams. There are guys who fought them, who end up wishing they hadn't . They end up wishing they'd just let the singular incident blow over, and odds are, no one really cared less.

 

[MountainDewed]

This lady's hobby is obviously making peoples lives miserable and she probably knows people in every code enforcement department. I would even bet she donates so she gets action like she did against you. Her neighbors probably walk on eggshells...

 

[TommyB]

If you do decide to fight it, I would bet the Ranger wouldn't even show up to the trial. Dismissed for sure.
I would fight it. I fought a red light ticket and Won.

 

[TheHunterGT]

My principals and pride sure as hell do not have a monetary value placed on them. I would show up and fight it if I thought I was truly wronged...no matter the ticket amount.

Many judges will listen to what you have to say and make a credible decision. If the judge feels you were not there with malicious intent and the officer should have just warned you....he very well may toss it out. From my experience....judges actually like to prove they can override a law just as often as they like to show they can enforce them. Just be polite and let him be the big man on campus and I actually like your chances in a case like this.

You talked to a city officer and a park ranger before getting the ticket from a 2nd ranger. Explain how you took the first 2 conversations at face value and did not think you needed it in writing from somebody sworn to uphold the law and protect the citizens (tiny violin). Explain after 2 "go ahead" talks that you figured all was well...and why would it not be since our hobby is so harmless? (more tiny violin)

I would act shocked and surprised that something such as MDing could be taking so out of context and have a ordinance that was obviously written for something else blanketed over it.

IDK...to each their own. Some people would shrug off the $60 ticket and carry on as you can see from the replies....hard to argue that logic as it is what works for them and their mindset. It is all about rather this is important enough "to you" to pursue or not.

Then again you might get a judge who thrives on the revenue these tickets bring in. Him and the park ranger may be best pals....who knows.

As far as traffic violations....just ask what the "cause of standing" is and watch the DA and officer sputter and spit for the judge to dismiss.

 

[boogeyman]

boogeyman, I know you're talking "principle" and and not money. Because OBVIOUSLY all the steps you're talking about (time spent, headaches, etc...) are NOT worth $60. They're only worth principal and pride.

HOWEVER, in the cases I gave where persons I knew got these extremely rare tickets, and elected just pay them, I'm sort of glad they did. Because guess what can happen if you fight them and loose ? You might just end up putting this "front and center" for all cops/rangers who hear of this, to NOW BE AWARE of supposed evils of md'ing.

And unlike fighting a speeding or radar ticket, md'ing has admitted connotations.

Hence if a person has time and energy, fine. But if not, then the net outcome of just paying it, isn't much. Odds are, the cop will forget about it, the md'r will forget about it, and you can detect THOSE VERY SAME PARKS till you're blue in the face forever more.

Same for bootings or scrams. There are guys who fought them, who end up wishing they hadn't . They end up wishing they'd just let the singular incident blow over, and odds are, no one really cared less.

Tom do you know what setting a precedence is? "Chances are" the judge will laugh his rear off as he dismisses your cite. On the other hand putting this front & center is a good thing. Jerry Brown loves folks like you! Just throw your cash in an envelope, send it in and get along down the trail. What you just responded with is EXACTLY what they want. Just hand us your cash and move along no matter how ridiculous the cite is. How many THing clubs are there in N Cali? Gather up and file a class action suit. That'll help everyone! Oh wait! That'll take up a few hours of your valuable time.................

An example in Laguna Beach a gentleman who happened to be a lawyer got fed up with getting questionable speeding tickets on PCH almost daily, sometimes twice a day. He fought them and took it to a class action lawsuit. They won! A couple hundred people got their fines back. And the speed trapping stopped. Yup! That put it front & center.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom do you know what setting a precedence is?...

Correct. But remember: "Precedent" works both ways. If you loose, then guess what the precedent would be THEN ?

Also, don't be so quick to assume that if you just paid it, that that becomes a precedent for "guilty as heck and every cop or ranger will now be on-the-lookout for md'rs". ON THE CONTRARY: often they are just flukes, and you can continue to hunt those same parks till you're blue in the face after that. This is especially true when the ONLY reason you or I was accosted, is because some busy-body griped (but the cop himself could care less).

Same for bootings or scrams (even if not resulting in a ticket): There's been guys seeking to overturn that, or get "clarification", that end up wishing they hadn't. They end up wishing they'd just treated the singular incident as a fluke. Eg.: avoid that one ranger or gardener's shift, or avoid just that one park, etc... But instead got their park or whole city's parks all off limits. And in one case, an entire state's state parks got a new policy rule B.O.L. because of a single md'r, who had a single encounter, and wanted to seek clarification. His stink made it "up the chain", and presto, a new rule was born.

So all I'm saying is, be careful.

 

[boogeyman]

Correct. But remember: "Precedent" works both ways. If you loose, then guess what the precedent would be THEN ?

Also, don't be so quick to assume that if you just paid it, that that becomes a precedent for "guilty as heck and every cop or ranger will now be on-the-lookout for md'rs". ON THE CONTRARY: often they are just flukes, and you can continue to hunt those same parks till you're blue in the face after that. This is especially true when the ONLY reason you or I was accosted, is because some busy-body griped (but the cop himself could care less).

Same for bootings or scrams (even if not resulting in a ticket): There's been guys seeking to overturn that, or get "clarification", that end up wishing they hadn't. They end up wishing they'd just treated the singular incident as a fluke. Eg.: avoid that one ranger or gardener's shift, or avoid just that one park, etc... But instead got their park or whole city's parks all off limits. And in one case, an entire state's state parks got a new policy rule B.O.L. because of a single md'r, who had a single encounter, and wanted to seek clarification. His stink made it "up the chain", and presto, a new rule was born.

So all I'm saying is, be careful.

Too many if's and an's . That's California's problem too many people that don't want to take the time to put a little effort into going against the authorities that are 1000% wrong in what they do. Nope hang you head, hide and adjust YOUR schedule to use parks etc etc that YOUR tax dollars are paying for, by "officers" who's salaries YOU pay. People running around scared to death they're gonna make waves or upset the system doing things in their day to day lives. Grab a copy of the Penal code & CVC. If you'll notice, there is a law for almost every action you do. Gov Brown and the cities throw out laws like confetti and nobody fights or contests them. Why? Because people are too busy with their precious time and don't take the time to stand up. Don't make waves! Don't cause a ruckus! Sit down shut up or we'll write a new law or ordinance. Too many sheep that's why Cali is as screwed up as it is. No one wants to spare any of their time on the web or watching TV to set precedence's, or get judgements on the books so others won't get fined etc.

You have a nice day, and whatever you do, Don't make waves! Hide your head in the sand OH WAIT! you have to dig a hole to do that! go sit on the sidewalk Whoops! That's a $125 ticket plus penalty assessment. Awwww just go stand in the corner Wait!!! That looks suspicious! Don't want to get detained for looking suspicious do we?

 

[Fletch88]

I'm with Tom on this one. You could win the battle but lose the war for the rest of us.
Pay the fine, move on and be more selective when and where you detect. I hate hunting parks because of these issues, but when I do I choose very low traffic times and scope out area for any busy body types that just look like they would call the law if you step out with my detector in hand.

If you go down to court and fight it eventually this is what the signs will read "Our new blanket policy is NO metal detectors whatsoever allowed in or around our entire park system". All due to a couple fluke incidents and someone wanting "clarification" on the matter.

 

[cudamark]

Too many if's and an's . That's California's problem too many people that don't want to take the time to put a little effort into going against the authorities that are 1000% wrong in what they do. Nope hang you head, hide and adjust YOUR schedule to use parks etc etc that YOUR tax dollars are paying for, by "officers" who's salaries YOU pay. People running around scared to death they're gonna make waves or upset the system doing things in their day to day lives. Grab a copy of the Penal code & CVC. If you'll notice, there is a law for almost every action you do. Gov Brown and the cities throw out laws like confetti and nobody fights or contests them. Why? Because people are too busy with their precious time and don't take the time to stand up. Don't make waves! Don't cause a ruckus! Sit down shut up or we'll write a new law or ordinance. Too many sheep that's why Cali is as screwed up as it is. No one wants to spare any of their time on the web or watching TV to set precedence's, or get judgements on the books so others won't get fined etc.

You have a nice day, and whatever you do, Don't make waves! Hide your head in the sand OH WAIT! you have to dig a hole to do that! go sit on the sidewalk Whoops! That's a $125 ticket plus penalty assessment. Awwww just go stand in the corner Wait!!! That looks suspicious! Don't want to get detained for looking suspicious do we?

That's all well and good if you can get enough people to stand with you. One person doesn't make an army, he gets ignored or run over. If there are hard and fast rules against detecting, well sure, give it the good fight. If there aren't such laws, why risk getting them enacted. I'd rather hunt at odd hours and try to avoid the "problem" people, than have to fight to rescind a law already on the books. Principal or not, it just seems to make more sense to me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

boogeyman, it's not that I don't agree with you, that we're not hurting anything. It's not that I don't agree with you, that bureaucracy should agree with that. It's not that I like avoiding busy-bodies who might gripe, and would much rather they roll out the red carpets for me.

So trust me: I'm not saying "I like it". And I certainly do wish I could convert all pencil pushers and gardeners and cops to agree that I'll leave no holes, harm nothing, etc....

It's just that REALITY is another thing. You've got to admit that md'ing has connotations. No matter how you slice it, someone's going to assume you might hurt the turf. Or disturb an indian bone or relic, etc.... Do you really think you're going to convert all of them to see it differently ?

So go ahead, call it being "sheep". But think of it like nose-picking: Not necessarily "illegal", but sheesk, don't YOU TOO use a little discretion in your timing ? Why not flaunt it and fight for your right ?

In EVERY avenue of life: There's times when it's wiser not to spit in people's holy water in front of them. Rather than trying to convince them it's not really holy water. Ie.: sometimes you just give "lip service".

 

[Clay Diggins]

Correct. But remember: "Precedent" works both ways. If you loose, then guess what the precedent would be THEN ?

Legal precedent is not binding from a single court's decision. That's TV law, not the way it actually works.

In the real world of law precedent has a hierarchy and starts at the first appeal level. Even then the precedent only affects courts within that appellate district. Never is precedent established at the level of a trial court hearing code violations.

warning: I've never appeared on a television show about courtroom antics. Your entertainment needs may not be met by reality.

 

[patiodadio]

Is paying the fine and rolling over the new American way ? Did our forefathers roll over for king George and just go ahead and pay the tax ? Davy Crockett said "Make sure you are right, then go ahead".

 

[Anduril]

Is paying the fine and rolling over the new American way ? Did our forefathers roll over for king George and just go ahead and pay the tax ? Davy Crockett said "Make sure you are right, then go ahead".

I suspect the problem runs deeper than that.
My guess is that if you try to fight this in court, "The System" is designed to discourage you at every opportunity.

For starters, that might mean you cannot possibly take care of this in one day.
Day-1 in court is when the Clerk reads the charges against you, and you enter a plea. Nobody wants to hear the merits at this point. They're not even prepared to hear the case at all (most likely, the City Attorney isn't even in the courtroom).
Day-2 in court is when the Judge is ready to hear the case, but the City Attorney isn't ready, or they've misplaced the file, (or fill in the blank - doesn't really matter).
Day-3 in court is when you might actually get to tell your side of the story and the Judge still fines you $60, plus court costs.

Now my contention is:
Unless you truly have nothing better to do, or you are fighting for a greater cause, your personal time is already worth more than Day-1, nevermind Days 2 & 3.

Just pay the fine and let the San Francisco City Parks keep their precious little dirt piles.