It finally happened, Investigated for Detecting!

[Deft Tones]

Karma is a funny thing.

Running off at the mouth in a post on here I recall saying nobody ever cares about the detecting of public parks around here....until today that is!

Today I spent over two hours with two officers and their sergeant in the field. A Lieutenant on a phone. A Parks and Rec director on another phone. And one bluffing fool!

I demanded citation or leave me be. Forced an investigation that lasted two minutes. Rebutted all the verbiage quoted in the codes and statutes. And exposed the complaintant as a liar wasting the time of all involved. He almost got cited!

I stood my ground and went full on Good Will Hunting meets Tom in CA.

AND I WON!

I don't know if I can give more than a long version. So surreal.

So satisfying!

 

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[kcm]

GOOD FOR YOU!! That's what is needed - people who are doing what they are allowed to do, doing it respectfully, and not giving in when badgered or bullied.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Deft tones, I see my name there, haha. Is the topic matter is starting to be associated with my name now? doh!

As KCM says, I'm sure you did it respectfully. Glad you prevailed!

You could have Tucked tail and said "ok" at the first hint of "scram". And then been precluded from your parks. Afterall, that would mean it's a "rule" eh? And afterall, you "wouldn't want to get a arrested", blah blah, right ? Then put the word out that "such & such city parks are off-limits". That gets picked up & put on list compendiums and links. Then one day, 20 yrs. later, everyone looks around and says "since when ? Says who? Where is that written?"

As much as the psychology of these evolutions intrigues me, yet I'm probably amongst the worst in-the-field, to actually be sparring with someone. On the semantics of "deface" versus "defaced", etc.... I've had many such encounters like yours, and prevailed like you did. Not to the extent of saying "give me a ticket", but rather, just to get them to change their mind re.: a scram.

Yet nowadays, after after 40 yrs. of hunting (I'm 55 now), I get to where I just "make it easy" and do most of my turf hunting at night. So peaceful . So serene.

As your story shows: a) We should never assume that every single scram constitutes gospel law. b) that it can be solved in the field with a bit of pacifying facts discussed with a big smile. c) that we are in a hobby that is an eye-magnet for the curious. And contains connotations. So we have to be prepared to have a thick skin sometimes, if park turf is your type of hunt site. d) that encounters such as this are not proof that you "should have gone in ahead of time to get written permission, to show any such busy-bodies.

Good post !

 

[ARC]

Tom... I am surprised your have not "piped in" on the other thread about "detecting when people are around"... err or whatever that thread is... letmesee.

Ahhhh yes...

" People avoidance is hindering my detecting " thread.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey there AARC. I saw that thread title. Read the first few replies. And it seemed to be about just bashfulness. Didn't seem to have anything to do with legalities, laws, rules, permissions, etc.... So I didn't read through all the replies. Lemme go check it out now.

 

[ivan salis]

glad all turned out well.... your lucky it did

 

[Loco-Digger]

Kudos to you for prevailing and forcing the issue, glad to see it was in your favor.

 

[kcm]

Re: @ Tom's post (...instead of having the whole thing copy again)


Yeah, I'm a bit of a stickler when I KNOW I'm in the right, but someone is trying to get me to leave, shut up, or other. Back before I got married, the wife-to-be and I had not known each other an extraordinarily long time when we went to the grocery store together. And keep in mind, a new love....so I'm happy and cheerful and everything good! ....Exactly the opposite of the grump I am now!

Well, it was early Summer and we were getting to the frozen food section. There was a sign reading whole turkeys $.xx cents per pound (can't remember what the price was). In the freezer were all full, white turkeys....EXCEPT?? There were a few, maybe a dozen "smoked" turkeys. No price. Nothing to differentiate that these turkeys were not also that low, low price. Nothing in the sales ad specifying. NOTHING!! I told my lady that I was pretty sure they weren't included, but what the heck - let's give it a try. Besides, she had never tried smoked turkey before.

We got up to the register and the cashier said that turkey wasn't on sale. I mentioned that there was a sign up that stated that whole turkeys were such-and-such price. She tried to tell me again, but I stood firm. I then invited her to go back and look at the sign. She wouldn't. So I asked to speak to a manager. Someone else comes up, and they, too, say that the smoked turkeys are not on sale. Again I quote their very LARGE sign back there, and the sign is in the center of the turkey bin, which would suggest it covers the entire bin. A manager decides to go back and look -- I quickly follow. I got there JUST IN TIME to see the manager rip the sign down and drop it behind the freezer, out of sight and out of reach.....except I know that the freezer is on wheels!! The manager is now trying to say there is no sign. So, do I give up? Nope, I GET LOUDER! By the time we get back to the register, I'm talking in a very loud voice, cause I want ALL of the shoppers to know what's going on. They finally offered to give me the bird for 1/2 off. Nope, thank you, but I want it for the advertised price. And jjjuuuuuussstt before I think they're about to offer to call the cops, "I" call out that maybe we should get the police here to settle things! We'll let THEM roll the freezer away and grab the sign that the manager knocked down behind it!

It went on and on for a few more minutes. My wife-to-be (you know, the one looking for ANYTHING to crawl under), is wanting to leave. And FINALLY, they give up, just to shut me up!! They offer to give me the bird for the sale price if I will just leave, but then I say how I don't want it anymore - "I wouldn't take that dang bird if you GAVE it to me!!" Then we walked out the doors, leaving all of our groceries there in the store. As we're going out the door, I have no choice but to walk fast.....you know, like walking a large dog that keeps pulling you along? Meanwhile, as soon as we get outside, I'm busting up laughing! Tears are running down my face, my ribs are bursting, and I'm in Hog Heaven from having such a good time! And the entire time, I was polite and respectful; NO vulgar language. After all, all I wanted was for them to reach back and pick up the sign they dropped behind the freezer. ....Right?

As it turned out, that was the store we usually did our shopping at for the next few years. At first, they HATED seeing me walk in there - just knowing I was gonna start trouble. But no, they didn't make any more major goofs like they did that time. Before long, everyone was greeting us and stopping to talk, including the manager. And if we wanted to make a suggestion about something, THEY DID IT!

I would often bag other customers groceries for them, even carry out groceries for elderly folks.

This was one Texan who turned a small-town Minnesota grocery store from a ho-hum little hole-in-the-wall, into a store that ended up treating its customers better and with more personalized service. Yes, those were the good ol' days.

 

[Oddjob]

OK, first off congrats on standing your ground, perhaps that will educate officers in the future.

However here is my thing; I work in Law Enforcement, I know many Officers, Cops, Agents and Operatives all over Europe. If we see something going on that we have no clue about and it does not appear to be illegal or causing danger to your self, the public or property then no says anything.

Why do so many State side have trouble with the police at first and then after a couple hours of education the cops back off. Are the police in the US so willing to show their ignorance in a certain field that they will most likely not ever specialize in.

I work a specific field, and I stick to that field and rarely ever step outside my Lane. Nearly every other LEO I know is the same way; we specialize in a certain area and know without a doubt every law and bi-law related. Why on earth would someone go out of their way to give even one more person (tax payer) a reason to not trust the full ability & judgment of the Law and Justice.

I guess there just must be some very top secret program going on in the US that involves screwing with the public and making your self look very stupid in the process. Here stupidity is the fastest way to get fired from your job, second fastest abusing your power.

My trouble is that I still see the US as it was when I left it back in 2001; I guess some things changed.

So again congrats on standing your ground and educating the same people who should already know their lane and the laws in their; even though it is not your job to teach officers the law I am sure your brief public service will have a positive future affect on our fellow hunters in your area.

Thank You,

 

[kcm]

Hey OJ

I think it's a number of factors. 1) MDers get too easily spooked when someone stops to watch them, even from a distance. If the MDer leaves, it gives the onlooker the impression that maybe what the MDer was doing was wrong, even if the onlooker was a cop. If this happens repeatedly over a long period of time, it sorta becomes an unofficial law or rule. People may see MDers slinking away to avoid confrontation, which gets THEIR suspicions up, they call the police, and the vicious cycle continues.
2) In another thread this morning, someone told the story of how they grew up believing that all city land in their town was off-limits for MDing, including school property. Then they told how it took 30-40 years before they FINALLY got things straightened out in their own mind, even though the old beliefs still cause them to look around in anticipation.
3) Many areas are now banning MDers and MDing as there are some who are disrespectful, trespass, don't understand how to dig with the least amount of damage, and even STEAL!
4) As so few people take time to understand what it is MDers do, they see someone out with a MD and digging on public land or in a vacant yard/lot and think that person is a terrorist. Others just don't like that there are little holes dug, regardless of how careful someone might be. People don't care or take time to find out if someone has permission - they just instantly jump to the conclusion that the MDer is in the wrong, then they call the police.
5) All the police can do is respond to the complaint. They don't make the law; they enforce the law - and they stand by that!! Even out here in the literal middle-of-nowhere, I've had to call the Sheriff's Dept or Border Patrol out in years past. Actually, many times I just called in with a question about something - not knowing if it was anything or not - yet they still had to respond. To make their books balance, they have to find resolve with any and all complaints, and they want to do that as quickly and easily as possible. So as long as all the MDers are so easily driven away from authorized hunting grounds, that will be the officer's logical approach to rectify the situation. So with a little chit-chat, a lot of respect, and a bit of understanding, we can turn things around and make it so that when officers are called out, that they arrive on scene NOT with the intentions of driving MDers away, but of just responding to the call and showing on the record that everything was ok.

Geez, I FINALLY came up for air! Ok, here it is - no proof-reading or nothing. Hitting Post NOW!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...., even though the old beliefs still cause them to look around in anticipation.
...

excellent post kcm. And this "looking around in anticipation" (eg.: "is anyone watching me?" evasive demeanor) has the following unintended consequence: Persons who see you watching them in this manner, are simply going to wonder: "Gee what's that guy doing ? Is that allowed ? Is he going to harm or take something ?"

Hence ironically it's often the "act like you own the place" demeanor that gets you ignored. Like picking up on women: There no exact recipe you can put your finger on. But some guys are able to detect anywhere and be ignored. While others get questioned.

 

[cudamark]

Karma is a funny thing.

Running off at the mouth in a post on here I recall saying nobody ever cares about the detecting of public parks around here....until today that is!

Today I spent over two hours with two officers and their sergeant in the field. A Lieutenant on a phone. A Parks and Rec director on another phone. And one bluffing fool!

I demanded citation or leave me be. Forced an investigation that lasted two minutes. Rebutted all the verbiage quoted in the codes and statutes. And exposed the complaintant as a liar wasting the time of all involved. He almost got cited!

I stood my ground and went full on Good Will Hunting meets Tom in CA.

AND I WON!

I don't know if I can give more than a long version. So surreal.

So satisfying!

I know how you feel. Sometimes you get so fed up with "scrams" when there is no real law regarding your activity, and you just want to say "put up, or shut up" when they threaten you with a bogus violation. The only problem you may have now is, you're on their radar when it comes to future restrictions or conditional use of that park. Hope they're not into spiteful revenge.

 

[Fletch88]

I know how you feel. Sometimes you get so fed up with "scrams" when there is no real law regarding your activity, and you just want to say "put up, or shut up" when they threaten you with a bogus violation. The only problem you may have now is, you're on their radar when it comes to future restrictions or conditional use of that park. Hope they're not into spiteful revenge.

Yes there will be a "law" on the books now that he stood his ground. Win the battle lose the war situation.

 

[Deft Tones]

So I went to the park today for the purpose of testing two stock detectors against one another. Instead, it happened I put the Law to the test.

(skip to first post for TLDR)

So, I’m friendly with the homeless man standing at the entrance of the park drinking alcohol in a Pepsi bottle..

I say, “What’s up?”

No response.

I see a woman standing at a sign near the entrance.

In passing I say, “Hello”.

No response.

Moving near the turf I see another man to my right in shorts, dirty sleeveless t-shirt, and bandana on his head approaching up towards me from an old concrete service drive. There is a truck behind him with empty flat trailer. Also, a shipping container is there for some renovation preparations. He’s parked right next to it.

I smile and step into the grass. Before breaking eye contact I get “Oh, no you don’t! You’re not digging here!”

Without breaking stride and still maintaining eye-contact he rates a response of, “Psshhhht! WHATEVER!”

5 more yards I hear over my shoulder, “You think I’m joking?”

“Call the Police!”, I yelled without looking back.

Walked to my spot, dropped my pack and gear, then while facing him (he’s on his phone) I defiantly thrust the Raven into the earth. Then I unpacked, set up both machines, and went about looking for an iffy target. They were in abundance but I had difficulty concentrating. I kept watching this guy on his phone for over 40 minutes straight. An hour and twenty minutes later two patrol cars enter the parking lot and I see them. I’m thinking ah, man, here we go.

But they disappeared! At this point I’m thinking, Ha! Until they reappeared on the bike trails to my right flank. Doh!

I keep my head down and earphones on. If they want to talk with me, come on down. Peeking under my boonie hat brim I can see one Officer inside his SUV atop a levee. The other officer ends up sneaking on foot behind me and announces himself to my surprise, “Excuse me, Sir”!

Now, let’s just say I’ve read a lot of Tom In CA on here (hat tip), and I know my local codes and the laws, or lack thereof in my municipality, and that the study of law is a third tier interest of mine and a vocation almost pursued. Locally there are no prohibitions against MD whatsoever. Digging, removing, altering, and defacing, vandalizing verbiage present. But back to the story…

I turn, remove headphones and give a proper military, “Yes, Sir!”

Officer: “Officer (blank). The Parks and Rec Dept wants you to leave.”

Me: “Why?”

Officer: “ I don’t know. We got a complaint and they want you gone. Or, I can give you a citation.”

Me looking conflicted: “I guess I’ll take a citation then. At least I’ll know of what laws I’m in violation”

Officer one yells to officer two near the suv ,“He wants a citation! Says, he’ll take a citation.”

Me: “Can you quote me the statute I’m in violation of?”

Officer 1: “No, not off the top of my head.”

Me: “Ok.”

They spend time on the radio requesting the required statutes to charge me. Meanwhile I’m assuring them I have personally poured over the codes and statutes to ensure I would not run afoul the law. I explain all my understanding and interpretation of the Laws to them concerning digging, removing, altering, defacing, etc….everything. So, as expected nothing is coming up and they are having trouble finding a prohibition against metal detecting – because there isn’t one! Obviously this is going to take some time so I ask permission to shut my equipment off and place it near my other gear.

Standing there with Officer 2 on the phone talking to someone at the station having municipal codes read to him, Officer 1 admits he has no problem with my hobby and he’s not sure what the problem is exactly. Officer 2 gets off the phone and calls over the Fool who called them with a complaint.

From the moment he steps into the conversation this guy has an obvious attitude. Everyone present notices. He claims to work for the Parks Dept. He complains of digging holes, calls me an ass, says he will ban me from the park. Meanwhile I’m busy laying out objections to the codes I have memorized. Not altering. Not Defacing. Not taking dirt or sod, or shrubs and plants from the park. I’m technically violating NO law! But when I heard this guy claim he’ll ban me, I had had enough. Fortunately the Jr. officers just let us talk, so I piped up.

Raising my voice from a 3 to a 6: “You don’t have that authority, Sir! What is your problem? What kind of authority issues do you suffer from, Sir?”

Fool starts back talking me and I snapped into full USMC DI mode catching all present completely off guard. I boomed in at a 8 or 8.5, a notch or two below full battle cry:
“WHAT IS YOUR NAME,SIR!? WHAT IS YOUR NAME, SIR!?”

He states his name with attitude then spells it out while I yell,
“WHAT IS YOUR POSITION IN THE PARKS DEPARTMENT?”

Fool continues to spell his name out completely.

“WHAT IS YOUR POSITION IN THE PARKS DEPARTMENT?”, I boomed slightly louder.

He refuses a coherent answer and I, frustrated and now angry exclaim, “I see…. I’m done talking with you.” Grrrrrr……I’m calming back down.

After that and while awaiting the arrival of the Seargent, there was about 20 minutes of uncomfortable silence which I attempted to break with small talk to the 1st officer. Officer 2 is still on the phone while they pour over the codes.

“Did they have you working Memorial Day?”

Officer nods affirmatively.

“That sucks. I hope you got double pay at least”

Officer slowly nods affirmatively and smiles.

Soon the fool is arguing he wants me banned again and now wants me charged with trespassing because I refuse to leave.

“Trespassing? Show me the posted sign and I’ll leave. TRY AGAIN SIR!”

By now the Officers are asking the Fool what his problem is. Why do you have an attitude? What harm has this guy (me) done here? They and I are now explaining over and over to him that there is nothing to ENFORCE here. No obvious violations of the Law. I’m right there piping in, “I defy anyone to show me where I’ve dug a hole!”

It’s obvious to everyone present that this fool has no concept of how the law actually works, the role of law enforcement officers, or the purpose of a Judge. He finally shuts up and just waits for the SGT…. Probably thinking he’ll have better luck with him.

While waiting this Foolish Man walks over to where I have been digging prior to all the trouble. He is looking to take photos of my work… but he can’t find anything. At least twenty plugs and not a trace. So he must settle with taking photos of my gear and equipment.

More silence and time pass. Two officers are joking amongst themselves commenting on how SGT. Is pissed-off and hot wearing a new body cam. He’s approaching from across the park. Officer 1 meets him half way and they are seen in discussion as they approach. I can certainly tell by the SGT’s stride and demeanor – he’s PISSED! He also was remarkably professional the entire time considering how upset he must have been. All Officers present were very professional.

SGT. approaches me immediately and asks me to follow him towards my gear. He’s interrupted almost immediately by the FOOL holding his phone up, “I have Lieutenant (blank) on the phone, he wants you to talk to him.”

SGT: “That’s OUTSTANDING! I’m conducting an investigation here. DO NOT INTERRUPT ME AGAIN!”

Jr. Officers shaking their heads smirking.

SGT: Very respectfully says, “So tell me about your hobby. How do you dig a hole? What do you use to dig with? Show me what you use.

“Well, I don’t typically dig holes. And it depends on the depth of the object , but I commonly cut a slit into the earth, lift the soil, and recover the metallic item, then press the earth back down, tamping it, and grooming the vegetation.”

I hand him my sheathed Hori Hori. He examines it. Noting verbally that it is indeed a soil knife of the common garden type. I show him my Predator Raven. Explaining that I rarely use this to dig, I carry this in public as a deterrent against getting jacked for almost $4000 in equipment. He completely understood. Not a problem.

“Does your machine give you depth readings? Like inches?

“Oh, yes Sir.. Quarter inches, Sir.”

“Show me where you’ve been digging today. Where have you been already?”

I take him to the area. “All along this parking lot edge. I’ve recovered 15-20 targets in this area already. SGT is looking around.

“Where did you dig?”

“Uh, I don’t know exactly. (I lean closer to him and state) I’m very good at what I do. Hold on…”

SGT:” You can’t find your own hole?”

“Wait, I think here is one. Yes, you can see a slit still in the soil right along here. (I pull the grass back)

SGT: “Really. I need to photograph this.”

He asks me to remain by my gear around 30’ from the others. He proceeds to discuss things with the Fool and the other Officers. Things seem pretty heated and I can only get bits and pieces of the discussions, but it appeared to not go well for the man. I hear SGT. Lecturing him about no violations having happened, the interpretation of the law, the intent of the law, and the Officer’s official role in the judicial system.

Shortly after the SGT. Makes his way over to me and says:

“I ‘d like to apologize to you on behalf of the Department. You are out here alone enjoying your hobby and we should never have been called out here to begin with. I’m allowed a certain amount of discretion in the field, and it is my belief that those laws cited earlier were not intended for your hobby. They were intended for people stealing sod for their yard, or taking roses for their garden.”

Nodding in approval I interject: “I think you and I share the same interpretation of the Law.”

He nods and continues, ”You are welcome to metal detect in all the public parks. You are welcome to come back to this park tomorrow or any other day. I would like to ask you a favor. That man’s emotions are pretty high. We like to diffuse the situation and I’d like to personally ask you if you would be the bigger man and leave the park for the day. You’re not required to leave and I will not tell you to leave, I just ask as a favor.”

Me: “While I agree with you on principal, I cannot leave the park while this guy is still here. I cannot allow him the perception that he has won after wasting over two hours of my time today. I respectfully decline, Sir.”

SGT: “Very well, you don’t have to leave. I do hope you have a good afternoon though. Now, you’re not in trouble or anything, but may I get your name for my notes?”

I gave him my name, I thanked him for his work and for using his discretion, and back he went to the group.

Now I couldn’t hear everything being said over there as the Fool and SGT. Had their backs to me, but when the SGT was walking back to the others I hear the 2nd officer getting agitated. “What is your title in the Parks Dept.?” Same question a second time. Third question, “Do you even work for the Parks Dept.?”

From what I could gather, technically no, he’s a subcontractor in charge of maintenance for the construction going on nearby. HE MOWS THE GRASS AROUND THE STORAGE TRAILER. So, while hired by the Parks Dept., and their shipping container is on park property, he does not have employment there or anywhere else in the City.
At one point all three Officers seem to be berating him. A few minutes later it ends with the SGT declaring loudly, “I can give you a citation right now! Call us again and you’ll be arrested!”

It was finally over.

I stuck around another hour and a half. This fool left at 4:30 and I remained until 5… the last one to leave the park. My little victory!

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Good job! I couldn't have done it as well. You have my respect.
Jim

 

[Escape]

I don't know Deft Tones but when he started hanging around taking pictures I would have complained that he was harassing me. Idiots, you can find them everywhere.

 

[Oddjob]

Well the long version is certainly more enlightening. From the first post I thought you lived around a bunch cops playing hero of the day.

Still good job for standing your ground and ousting that fool.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes there will be a "law" on the books now that he stood his ground. Win the battle lose the war situation.

Fletch: This is entirely possible. Yes. That although deft-tones prevailed, yet those who dickered with him could go to the next council meeting with a new proposed rule for approval. Is that what you are hinting at ? Sure, it's possible.

BUT WHAT WAS HIS CHOICE?

If he'd just said "ok" and left, never to return, at the first hint of scram, then this outcome (not allowed in the parks) is his result. Or if he'd gone to city hall to fight it, seek clarification, etc.... The SAME result you fear might have happened. Or if he'd gone in before hand "seeking permission", the same "rule" you speak of might have been written to "address this pressing issue". So what was deft-tone's choice ?

 

[BARKER]

Hi Deft tones; WAY TO GO.!!! AWESOME.!!! If all of us here do the same exact thing when we are challenged like that then maybe the BS will stop once and for all and those in so called Power finally get the messege that WE are not going to take it anymore. That WE can, will and DO actually fight for OUR Rights. Then maybe even the idiots who like giving us a hard time because they have nothing else to do will actually grow up and leave us alone.
I hereby VOTE Honorable Mention. PEACE:RONB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Brava Deft tones! Great recap. Although none of us envy you, and none of us want that to happen, yet you handled it well.

.... All Officers present were very professional.....

This comment alone tells me you were level headed during the issue. Because it is way-too-easy for all of us to become anti-cop and mad. So the fact you could keep this professionalism to respect their hard job, is a an added bravo to you !

.... "I’m allowed a certain amount of discretion in the field, and it is my belief that those laws cited earlier were not intended for your hobby" ....

Yes. This is the big "gotcha" in all this. Technically *could* have looked at your singular slit (that was so imperceptible that you had to find and show it to them), and have determined that "this constitutes defacement". Put yourselves in their shoes: Even if they WERE forced to admit you're doing no harm, yet in the back of their mind, they may be thinking : "Gee we have all these yahoos out in the park with their detectors. How do we know the next guy might not be so neat and clean ?".

Fortunately that wasn't the case. But just pointing out that yes: they do have a bit of wiggle room of discretion to fit statutes to fall under various categories.

Again Bravo !