Florida Again

[banjonyc]

I apologize for the repeat question, but I did a search on here and no luck. I am headed to Boca Raton FL. for xmas and want to hunt the beaches there (Boca, Del Rey, Ft Lauderdale etc). I've scoured a dozen or so sites for the laws and they are so damn awful. From what I can gather, I can not go in the water with a detector but if it's not a state park, I can detect from the low tide line to the toe of the dunes.

Does anyone know if this is correct? Does anyone know the rules regarding the area I am searching.

Again, apologies for the redundancy, but don't want to get arrested and have my detector taken away

Thanks

 

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[cudamark]

I believe what you presume is correct. If there are no salvage claims in your area, you can go into the water also. If there are, then yes, you can't detect in the water.....just wet sand to dune. State Beaches sometimes are not off limits. Here in Ca, they don't seem to have a problem with it. Check with local detectorists to find out whether it's allowed or not.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Here in Ca, they don't seem to have a problem with it......

Correct. But then again, there's no *technical* reason why whatever state park's rules here for their land parks, wouldn't equally apply to the beaches they administer as well. Afterall, it's the exact same park's dept. administering each. But in actual practice, it's never been a problem. And so long as no one here goes "seeking clarification" from bored purist archaeologists, I guess it will remain that way. Ie.: we leave good enough alone

It's as you say: "check with local md'rs" on the real skinny. Not go asking pencil pushers.

 

[G.I.B.]

I've had good success in hunting State Park beaches. Just check with the front gate, they will let you know if it's allowed or not.

Some of our parks have historical areas to them, hence the no.

The parks generally won't allow anywhere except on the beach.

To be safe on the east coast, I'd just stay out of the water unless you are positive there is not a lease area where you are hunting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I've had good success in hunting State Park beaches. Just check with the front gate, they will let you know if it's allowed or not......

Question for you G.I.B. : Is the criteria, that the gate-personell uses to say "yes" or "no", in written form somewhere ? Ie.: where is HE getting the information from ? I'm guessing they must have a list somewhere ? Or that there's a rule-book from which he's drawing that information ?

If so, is it possible that the info. can be looked up wherever THAT source of information comes from ? Ie.: for md'rs to look it up for themselves ?

Because I dunno about FL, but here in CA, I can only shake in my boots if enough people started showing at beach kiosks asking "can I?". I would be worried that somehow it could result in a "no", where it's never been an issue before. Not saying that "rules don't exist" and that it's not "good to know them", but .... just wondering if the answer you'd get at a window, couldn't be looked up for one's self ? To make sure you're not given an arbitrary opinion, etc....

 

[G.I.B.]

Tom, yes the criteria is written.

The official stance is that it's up to the discretion of the local park supervisor if detecting is allowed or not, and in ALL cases NO if there are any historical or archeological sites involved.

The policy for the State of Florida Parks is that (and it's written in the policy) that since the beaches are dynamic, metal detecting should be allowed where possible between the toe of the dunes and the (if I remember correctly) high water mark.

I was in one park in the Florida Keys and the manager said I could only hunt IN the water, so I considered his ignorance as my bonus day.

Here is an older copy I have handy... (I no longer carry a copy as pretty much everyone says yes)

1. 2.) Use of a metal detector for recreational purposes
   
   Operations Manual (OM) Chapter 11 - Cultural Resource Management
   Revised 6/13/05
   
   Use of metal detectors, magnetometers or other metal detecting devices is prohibited on all state park lands, including sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks, except for the following:
   
   
   Coastal parks, in a zone between the waterline and toe of the dune, as determined by the Park Manager, except at archaeological sites within the zone designated by DHR or the Park Manager.
   
   
   Any dug hole associated with the use of a metal detector must be refilled to the contour of pre-dig conditions using the excavated material.
   
   
   This exception is for coastal parks, in a zone between the mean high water line (usually the upper limit of the wet sand area) and toe of the dune, as determined by the Park Manager, except at archaeological sites within the zone designated by DHR or the Park Manager. This was done to allow this recreational activity in an area that the Division felt was appropriate and safe. The zone between the waterline and toe of the dune is sand which is routinely dug by children and others building sand castles and other beach activities; the zone is also very dynamic and recovers quickly.
   
   
   If the Park Manager at a coastal park wants to further restrict the use of metal detectors and prohibit their use in the zone between the waterline and toe of the dune, he/she can do that under authority provided in 62D-2. If the Park Manger intends to do this he/she must post notice to park visitors.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

GIB is correct, it is up to the head ranger of each state park, they have the right to say yes or no.




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[Tom_in_CA]

TH'r and G.I.B., thanx for chiming in on FL. Yes: Any duly appointed LEO is given liberty to determine various things. Ie.: what constitutes "blocking a sidewalk", or what constitutes an "annoyance", etc.... And even things like whether or not digging a hole constitutes "alter and deface", versus another LEO/ranger who figures "as long as you fill it in" he's ok with it.

And even G.I.B's own reply hints at a level of arbitrary-ness in the opinions you could fetch at each kiosk. So too have I read conflicting answers where one person is told "help yourself" at a certain FL. beach, where another is given a "no". Imagine the latter's surprise when he hears that someone else has gone no problem for years (even with a "yes"), while he got a "no". Doh!

But back to the matter of "at the park director's discretion": Is this any different than ANY matter which anyone wants to do in public ? Ie.: play his boombox loud, and yet, a park ranger can come say "turn it down, you're bothering your neighbor" ? In that sense, yes: things are "up to the discretion of a ranger/LEO".

So too did a lot of the answers on the FMDAC state-by-state list essentially end up with something similar: "Ask at each kiosk" etc.... But when you dug deeper into the minutia at each of those 50 states , you really didn't see anything that actually SAID "ask at each kiosk". It was more along the lines of whomever's answering this question, to figure that their own LEO's have the interpretational say-so. Which is un-disputed. So rather than giving blanket "yes" or "no", they just say "inquire wherever you go". But notice that the addage of "inquire wherever you go" isn't written in actual code (as if to say "this particular activity needs permission).

However, for FL, based on what GIB is citing here, it does seem to indicate in actual text rules: ", ..... as determined by the Park Manager,".

I wonder if that's referring to their ability to say "scram" (which is not in dispute, for ANYTHING they are LEO over), or if that's saying "our permission is needed" ? For CA, it's just (I guess) been interpreted to mean they can certainly "come alert you" if they feel it's bothering sandcrabs or something.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well now studying GIB's citation further, I see the interesting line:

" .... If the Park Manger intends to do this he/she must post notice to park visitors."

Ok then, help me out here: if this is the case (that an off-limits beach will be posted -as -such), then : Can't we look for the posting? And if not "posted", then presto, it's not posted ?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Not sure why your arguing with 2 Florida residents who have both been hunting Florida's beaches over 10 years each and who both are very aware of our laws. Neither one of us are newbies at this..

You need park manager's approval to hunt state park beaches, you can ask for permission as you enter the park if it isn't already posted one way or the other.,




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[Tom_in_CA]

Just posting what the rules themselves say . That the other of those 2 Florida residents cut & pasted it . He posted "the law" that such a decision would be "posted". No arguing with me. Just wondering how laws and the psychology of all this works from location to location

 

[G.I.B.]

Tom,

When you drive up to the State Park entrance there are a couple of big boards behind weather protective glass with a lot of different pieces of paper on it.

I'm happy that they don't litter our beaches with signs. They look much nicer that way. The information is posted at the entrance.

Some of the papers tell you about the birds, some about snakes, some about thickets and thorns, one has something about poisonous plants, don't mess with the Manatees, watch out for.... there are lot's of informative documents there.

Please feel free to park away from the entrance so you don't block other patrons, and read each and every posting. Don't overlook the fine print somewhere. There will be one in there somewhere about metal detecting when it's not allowed.

Perhaps when they talk to happy G.I.B. with his lifetime park pass they think, "what a nice guy, he will fill his holes and be nice to other people on the beach, have fun Mr. G.I.B.".

When an obnoxious jerk demands proof at the gate they might think, "what an obnoxious jerk, we don't want him testing every limit and making a mess and just being pissy, no... we don't allow detecting here."


I find it easier to just ask.

 

[cudamark]

I find it interesting that the regs posted by G.I.B. indicate that hunting in the water is prohibited. I wonder what their reasoning is for that? Here in over-regulated Ca. we can at least hunt out in the water at State Parks. Also, I'm curious about the phrase "sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks" What the heck is a sovereign submerged land, why do they need to lease is, how much do they pay, who are they paying, and what is that money used for? Sounds like a slush fund to me!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Cudamark, perhaps it's because FL is fabled for various near-shore wrecks laden with coins ?

And as for ".... Here in over-regulated Ca. we can at least hunt out in the water at State Parks...." :

You mean on our state beaches here, right ? (and most all our CA beaches are administered by the state) Sure: you can not only hunt them to your heart's content on the dry and wet sand, but you can also wade or go under the water (if you are so inclined) to your heart's content. However, here's the wording taken from FMDAC's state by state list:

"Is Metal Detecting allowed in California state parks: YES, but you may need a permit to disturb resources."

And I suppose, from that, someone might infer that they should "ask at each kiosk", right ? Afterall a 50+ yr. old wheat penny or buffalo nickel is technically a "cultural resource" aka "artifact". Right ?

However, if enough of us here kept going into kiosks, up and down the coast. And sending inquiries "seeking clarification". Asking this question (in and/or out of the water), that it wouldn't take long for a decision to be rendered that we too could be riddled with rules, or outright "no's".

In fact, I have heard of a few "scrams" on state beaches. For no other reason that that the ranger figured it wasn't allowed on state beaches. No doubt drawing from cultural heritage wording, or "harvest and remove", or whatever. Yet most all the other rangers simply don't care, and the thought and implications have never gone through their mind. And guess what ? We just leave it that way

So it's not that it's "allowed" here. It's only that no one's asked enough of the right top brass, with the right buzz words yet

 

[G.I.B.]

I find it interesting that the regs posted by G.I.B. indicate that hunting in the water is prohibited. I wonder what their reasoning is for that? Here in over-regulated Ca. we can at least hunt out in the water at State Parks. Also, I'm curious about the phrase "sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks" What the heck is a sovereign submerged land, why do they need to lease is, how much do they pay, who are they paying, and what is that money used for? Sounds like a slush fund to me!

The lease refers to treasure leases. Yes, our east coast is littered with treasure wrecks and historical stuff right along the beach.

They pay the state and the removal of historical artifacts, to include treasure, is highly regulated.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

95% of Florida's beaches are open for detecting including in the water I don't lose any sleep with being restricted in the other 5%.




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[Tom_in_CA]

..... and the removal of historical artifacts, to include treasure, is highly regulated.

The removal of "historical artifacts" is "highly regulated" at CA beaches too. I bet if I walked into any ranger kiosk (esp. if an archie minded one happened to be in the room) with a detector -in-hand, and asked : "Can I remove historical artifacts?", that they would INDEED say "absolutely not".

Yet apparently it has never crossed the rank & file people's minds, when they pass md'rs on the beach , that, gasp, we might be finding old coins. Hence the less they think of that, the better

 

[cudamark]

The lease refers to treasure leases. Yes, our east coast is littered with treasure wrecks and historical stuff right along the beach.

They pay the state and the removal of historical artifacts, to include treasure, is highly regulated.

So, all your State Beaches have salvage claims on them?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

No they do not. You can hunt 95% of Florida beaches with out issue. It is real simple, stay out of the water on the Treasure coast beaches, no detecting on national sea shores, ask permission at any state parks on the beach, hunt away on the other 600+ miles of Florida beaches. There are 1 or 2 small beaches that a couple local cities have restricted but their beaches are tiny they have signs telling you no detecting and they are not in very safe areas so who really cares...

 

[cudamark]

I'm referring to your State Park Beaches where G.I.B.'s posted rules apply. If they don't all have salvage leases, why a blanket ban on hunting the water?