Swamp Gold

[ivan salis]

there is a confederate boat sank off of fernadina fla that was sank by union forces * -- her pre capture by rebel forces "civilian " name was -- Alvarado *---- on august 5th . 1861 --she was driven ashore off fernandina , florida by the USS Jamestown -- her crew abandoned her and union troops "boarded" her -- however several rowboats full of local rebel loyal citiizen's closed in on her firing at the union troopson her -- forcing the union troops to abandon their "prize"---however before leaving the union troops set fire to the vessel which sank her.

 

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[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

We know the 'root' of this particular legend. It was created in 2003 by a Randy Sumpter in Illinois and posted on a pro-KGC website.

If you are convinced that this is the genesis of the story, with no basis in fact - why don't you take it up with Randy Sumpter in Illinois? I believe his email is available, and if memory serves he offers free research.

SWR also wrote

Based on factual events? The KGC buried thousands of tons of gold/silver around the country. Surly you jest.

Where did I ever claim that the KGC buried "thousands of tons of gold/silver around the country"? Is that what you are trying to refute? I do not make any such claim, and (so far) have not seen anyone make such a claim here. There was a claim of a "fantastic" treasure worth some un-imaginable value, but that was very early in the thread and not even Civil War related. As for the actual amounts of money in the hands of the Confederate Secret Service, while it was not "thousands of tons of gold/silver" it was a considerable amount - over $1 million at least.

Ivan Sails wrote

there is a confederate boat sank off of fernadina fla that was sank by union forces

That is interesting amigo, seems Fernandina was a rather important place early in the war. Was Senator Yulee there when the Union forces invaded? I have not been able to prove that he was there but if he was - why? Yulee is a mysterious character in the Confederacy. I did find a letter in the OR from a CS officer in Louisiana requesting that $195,000 be sent to him, in 1862, which may be related, and the events of the Union incursion up the St Johns river may also be the 'battle' referred to in Randy Sumpter's story - some interesting things were captured by Union forces during that raid, like a Confederate steamer hidden in a small creek well up river.

Well amigos SWR seems to view $200,000 as if it were some astounding, vast, enormous heap of treasure and yes it is impressive - the value in today's dollars would be easily twenty times that amount. Trying to find the sources used by Randy Sumpter for his story has been interesting but we should also keep in mind that the value may be altered to today's value - perhaps the amount was twenty times LESS than $200,000 in 1862. If it is worth $200,000 today, in my view that is still an amount worth finding however.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ivan salis]

david yulee was a very rich and powerful man * for his day -- (he was floridas first senator and the first ever JEWISH member of senate!!--- he and beckenridge -- ( who was confederate sec. of state and who was the the second JEWISH senator * ever ) both broke ranks with the union upon the souths going to war --they were very helpful in getting jewish backers in europe to buy confederate war bonds (if the south had won the jewish backers / bankers stood to make a very large profeit) ---- yulees train tracks ran from fernandina to cedar key (they first ones in florida) --yulee's grand plan was to cross ship goods from fernandina to cedar key --thus cutting out the long and dangerous trip around fllorida keys --so gulf items and east coast items could rapidly transship -- however the civil war came along missing up his grand plan --yes yulee was in fernandina when the union forces attacked --he along with many others fled on one of his trains as the union forces closed in -- one of the union naval vessels ran up the river a bit chasing after it trying to shell the tracks ahead of it or hit the train to try to stop the train but it was were unable to do so.

in my veiw --- david yulee was without a doubt a "money man" for the south -- it is very possible that he hanging around in fernandina "recieving" smuggled money shipments sent from european sources that sent them to nassau (english port) where they were then loaded upon blockade runners for the run into fernandina the money then could easily be sent by train to baldwin and then westward towards tallahassee or northward (georgia or virgina ,ect) or southward toward the beef buying area - fort brooke * near tampa .

did union troops take fernandina to break this fiscal and supply train chain? (by closing the eastern end off) as well as to help stop blockade runners from being able up to go up the st marys river? humm could be.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

"Are you trying to change history"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

History is always subject to change.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Quote from: SWR on Apr 12, 2009, 03:59:27 AM
Quote from: Oroblanco on Apr 11, 2009, 08:35:26 PM

SWR wrote

Quote
We know the 'root' of this particular legend. It was created in 2003 by a Randy Sumpter in Illinois and posted on a pro-KGC website.

If you are convinced that this is the genesis of the story, with no basis in fact - why don't you take it up with Randy Sumpter in Illinois? I believe his email is available, and if memory serves he offers free research.



So, is it safe to assume the only place of reference, source or 'root' of this legend is posted on a pro-KGC website?

Randy was a member of TreasureNet back in 2003 when he penned this yarn. I'll drop him an email and ask if he could post his sources.

Added later:

I see Randy posted another Everglades treasure on a different KGC website, and is now calling himself Randy (Jesse James) Sumpter.

EVERGLADES....KGC .Captain John Riley trying to ship Confederate gold to Havana in the spring of 1865, was chased into the Everglades by Federal troops. Riley buried $500,000 in gold bullion in west central Broward County. A Confederate paymaster fleeing Federal troops buried $200,000 in gold coins in Hendry County and the area is supposedly between Alligator Alley and State Route 41.

Good idea to write him. Maybe he can shed some light.

I however have several references to this gold legend in 70's Treasure publications. Mar 70, July 72, Aug 74, Apr 77, and many others into the 80's. Also Thomas Terry's Treasure Atlas Vol #3. Tracing the source would be a very good idea. I think it may go back before the 40's, at least, when the Confederate relics were discovered on that island...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks for writing. No, they dont all mention KGC. Truthfully, I havent purchased all these old treasure magazines yet. I have obtained a list of references off the internet.

How old is Thomas Terry's Treasure Atlas Vol #3?

 

[sabre15]

I have been curious for a long time now on Thomas Terry, I have volume 3 and wonder where did his info come from? Was he known to embellish some stories to add to the appeal of his treasure book? He has some stories in there which I have tenaciously studied and cannot find the information he puts forth. For example in this story about the land being like a camels back or the other Florida legend I have been researching regarding the Scottish Traders being executed. Has anyone ever met Mr. Terry? Is he just selling books or was he a true researcher?

 

[ivan salis]

ah the "new orleans bank" gold worth several million dollars taken by the confederates * could be the root or source of money for both the 1862 "florida" funds and the rest shipped up to richmond and then brought back south in 1865 shipped down south as "confederate treasury funds" --- humm very very interesting * --- yes N B Forrest was in northern alabama / tennesse area --and kirby in tennesse as well --- both along the route the funds would have to travel if headed from jackson,mississippi to richmond .virginia* --draw a straight line from point a to b and you'll get the drift. ---some of those funds might have very easily been sent to florida in 1862 * --- so we have a possible documented source where the funds spoke about in these tales might have came from.

 

[ivan salis]

not sure of the exact break down on gold vs notes -- but I sure the confederates took whatever gold and silver they could lay their hands on first --before the paper (since like today the govt could always print more "paper" money but "hard cash" gold and silver was much harder to come by ) so to take the gold and silver first --thats just common sense.

and I have only the record to go by of the confederate general and if his "offical" records say several million --how can I logically argue with the "history"--since he was and I was not there -- unless I have "direct proof" otherwize?

I just am just saying that this money *****could be *****where the funds that caused the 1862 florida treasure tale --and the later on 1865 "confederate treasury" tale of money coming from richmond , va tales -- thats all --its "possible" that these "new orleans bank funds" are the root or source of the money in these tales.---nothing more / nothing less

Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

if it was mexican funds (money of a foreign govt MEXICO ) -- I 'm sure the south wizely gave it back * since they don't need to cause problems with mexico -- now if it had just been funds in mexican silver held by american folks / banks --well that would have been a very differant matter.

 

[ivan salis]

odd then that it would be "returned" since new orleans was union controlled * ---and the money would help a union controlled area. very odd indeed .

 

[ivan salis]

"in his charge" could easily mean that he has it under his control in jackson mississippi * since new orleans was being lost to union forces and once they took over new orleans the funds would be in their hands so of course confederate offical s would not just "leave" it there for the union troops to get ahold of-- they would want to remove it for safe keeping and confederate use --rather than allow union forces to have it --unless of course it belonged to a foreign govt and was on account there--in which case it would not be touched to prevent ill feelings from the foreign govt who's account it was. --loyal southern banks would want their funds out of "yankee" control -- and union loyal banks --- oh well too bad for them.

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Are you claiming the KGC and the Confederate Secret Service are one in the same, or somehow connected?

If so, could you post your source?

Now where did I say that? You have a regular habit of putting words into other folks posts, which appears to be a rather weak attempt to derail the discussion. I am not saying that the KGC is the Confederate Secret Service, nor that they worked together (though some communications may have occurred) rather that at least SOME modern stories of KGC treasures are in fact stories based on Confederate Secret Service actions. The KGC was short on funds (according to several sources) so not a likely source of many thousands of tons of gold and silver being buried around the country. Modern writers have made many mistakes when writing treasure stories. The page posted here from Thomas Terry's encyclopedic work on treasures shows where this story may have been born, and how error has crept in. I will explain.

<Terry wrote>
749 a
Retreating after the battle of Natural Bridge in 1865, Confederate soldiers tried to escape to Havana Cuba.

The author of one version we have been debating may well have read this and ASSUMED that the Confederates were retreating after LOSING the battle of Natural Bridge (they won actually) so wrote that the CS was retreating after losing the fight. The date problem is not uncommon either - for a 2 can be mistaken for a 5, especially by a person who is slightly dislexic, or trying to read fine print late at night. Treasure stories get distorted, but still are based on facts. The trick is in finding the root truth. Our mutual friend Cactusjumper has a saying, "History gets changed one word at a time" and this is all too true when we are dealing with treasure stories.

This story we are dealing with could still be a complete fantasy tale, but I believe we have enough documentation to show that several CSA officials were trying to escape the country with considerable sums of money late in the war, and that surreptitious attempts to ship money out of the country to foreign countries was being done on a regular basis - to buy the arms, clothing, shoes, powder, etc so badly needed by the Confederacy. Just on a few messages we can find in the OR it appears that there were problems with large sums of cash being transferred around the country in 1862.

Sabre15 wrote

I have been curious for a long time now on Thomas Terry, I have volume 3 and wonder where did his info come from? Was he known to embellish some stories to add to the appeal of his treasure book?

I cannot speak for Thomas Terry and do wish that he had included his sources, but can say this - that Terry was much more of a compiler than a fact-checker. He simply compiled all the treasure stories he could find without trying to determine whether they had a basis in fact or not. So I have found a few stories that had garbled info, but I also have had good success in finding documentation for other stories he has listed. One local example from the Black Hills, Terry has a brief entry on a prospector named Bailey who found rich float while coming down a mountain that had very rich silver values - according to Terry, Bailey returned to stake a claim and could not locate the spot. I found the correct Bailey, when he arrived in Deadwood by stage, the actual assay record of over $15,000 per ton silver, a newspaper account of his find, as well as the man's homestead, marriage, death etc. Bailey searched for the spot repeatedly, without success. To sum it up, I don't think Terry deliberately included any falsehoods, he didn't have time to research every story just to "prove them up" so we may find some stories that are indeed false.

SWR wrote

Read:

“This relief can the more readily be obtained from the assistant treasurer at Jackson, Miss., who has in his charge several millions of dollars belonging to the banks of New Orleans, La., seized by my orders when I was informed those funds were to be returned to those banks in obedience to the instructions of Major-General Butler, Federal commander at that point.”

Not:

In his possession


The mony never left New Orleans

How do you reach that conclusion, when Beauregard specifically states that the monies are held by the assistant treasurer at Jackson, Mississippi, which was at that time still in Confederate hands? Can you explain?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ivan salis]

now if the money NEVER LEFT NEW ORLEANS -- WHICH WAS THEN UNDER UNION CONTROL -- how in gods name could a confederate officer IN JACKSON ,MISSISSIPPI --give money to the folks requesting it ?---if that money was in new orleans ? -- there would have been no way for him have given any funds out - as the general says --"go see ---the asst treasurer in jackson, mississippi --he has several million dollars under his charge (under his control) from the bank money of new orleans that I told them to take and get some money from him" --

the money had to be in jackson mississippi for the confederate asst treasurer to have it to give out* -- if it was in new orleans as you claim --it never left"(which by the was under union control there would be no money for him to give -- so its clear that the money had to be under his "charge" ---"control" or safe keeping ---in jackson, mississippi * in 1862

 

[ivan salis]

yep 100% wrong
and now we have a viable possible source for the " actual money" in those "wild crazy tall tales" to boot --- humm those stories are not looking quite as wild eyed and crazy now are they ?

bit by bit --link by link --the chain grows-- so now we might know the starting end of the "chain"-- (where did the funds come from / can this story have any basis in fact?) step one in any treasure hunt is to find out if its "possible" real tale with any basis in truth or a totally made up myth *

with the new orleans bank money info --of money worth several million in jackson .mississippi and the need to ship it elsewhere for safe keeping -- gotta say its a "possible" source for lost money shipment tale of 1862 as well as a possible sourse of the 1865 "confederate treasury money " from richmond in 1865 as well --so step one -check / check

 

[ivan salis]

that was dutch owed money - made in "so called"--- mexican silver--- freshly minted by the former us mint in new orleans most likely * these guys were most likely trading illegally in war goods in europe using this silver money as funds --after the funds was found by us forces -- they claim to be diplomats --ie the dutch council ---say it their private funds --as confederate freinds that money was not taken by the confederates *as they left new orleans --thus is in effect --- illegal "private" money -- clearly not the bank funds spoke of by the general.

back to the "subject"--- the money in jackson , mississippi taken from the banks of new orleans * several million dollars worth according to the general * -- could these funds be the "scource" of the money of the 1862 and later 1865 confederate lost money tales? --I say -ummm very possible.

 

[21stTNCav]

I have been following the thread and it is very intresting y'all. If I may I would like to make a small point. Although the official Union mission was not the destruction of the Southern citizen, Benjiman Butlers mission seems to have been exactly that. He was detested as the Union commander of New Orleans and was brutal to the population of that city. If I was a Confederate commander and I could get ahold of any funds from that area I would take it with extreme prejudice. Just a thought to the state of mind of Beauregard. An opinion, not a fact. Also check what rail lines were available at the time. As the crow fly's does not describe the Southern rail system back then even in the best of times. Sorry, two points.

 

[ivan salis]

as a child I grew up in nawlins so I know its history all too well -- the union gen .bulter was hated to the point that they painted his likeness in chamber pots ---he was detested and hated beyond belief because of his brutal ways and how he dealt with the people of new orlleans --

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

Here is a sketch of the battlefield of Natural Bridge, as drawn by a US officer reporting on the action, (if this works)

<if that didn't work, here is where I found it>
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-...otisid=ANU4519-0103&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

One of the US reports on the action at Natural Bridge 1865 mentions an "officer of militia" who was captured, but no name or rank. Could it be referring to the very Major Thomas Reynolds we find in Raymond's story? <Here is the report mentioning "a prisoner, an officer of militia"
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-...otisid=ANU4519-0103&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

As for the idea that the money of the story was more likely CS currency and/or bonds than GOLD, it can be proven that many CS quartermasters were in the habit of exchanging currency for gold even quite early in the war, in order to have gold to purchase the needs of the military. Here is a report, starts on this page:
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-...otisid=ANU4519-0127&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50
in more detail on next page
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-...otisid=ANU4519-0127&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50
...even though this was in direct contravention of CS orders.
Also, here is a note from Secretary Trenholm (1865) authorizing conversion of cotton and currency into specie (silver) for payment, mentioning that General Taylor is in want of money
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-...otisid=ANU4519-0103&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

Just MY OPINION but I suspect this story may be rooted to the final payment recorded of $86,000 in gold coin and bullion to a "trusted officer of the navy" <I posted this before, but anyone who is curious and doesn't want to go back through all the posts>
"My last payment in Washington Ga was of eighty six thousand dollars $86,000 in gold coin and gold bullion to a trusted officer of the navy taking his receipt for its transmission out of the Confederacy to be held for the Treasury Department"
<from>
http://books.google.com/books?id=k3...d&pg=PA874&ci=183,543,670,216&source=bookclip

Whom was this trusted officer of the navy? Could it have been a Major Reynolds? If he was entrusted to carry this gold out of the country, and the route which seems most popular among the Confederates fleeing Richmond does seem to have been through Florida, is it not possible or even likely that this navy officer, carrying a sizable fortune in gold and trying to do his duty might well be the genesis (origin) of the tale? I have not been able to find the actual name of this "trusted officer of the navy" and likely can not. The skeptics can say that this inability to find relevant records proves the story to be false, yet we know for a fact that even with the considerable records we DO have of the War of the Rebellion, we have only a fraction of what existed at the time and in such a case it is quite likely that there would be NO record kept of the incident.

Thank you for posting that map amigo Judy!
Oroblanco

 

[ivan salis]

funny thing the florida area train tracks are not showing* one glaring weakness in the souths rail ststem was the lack of a direct linlk form florida / georgia trains --stuff has to be swapped out due to rail gauge problems