JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

"It is sad that you have given up being a dreamer, or treasure hunter."

Neither of those conclusions about me are true . While I no longer search for Jesuit treasure, I still enjoy researching the subject of that possibility. I do it in the hopes of finding some small hidden facts that support the theories and legends and not the other way around.

While it's true that the bone spurs on my spine have ended my hiking days, I have had a wonderful time, since I was 13 years old, searching for lost mines and treasures. I will be 66 in February. Nothing sad about that long term hobby.

I am very aware of the many mistakes that are made by experts in every field. Those people are expected to make many decisions, some that deal with life or death. Only those who do nothing are imune to making mistakes.

I have made many lifelong friends through my hobby, and meet more every year. Some on the Internet, and others at the yearly Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous, an event which I started. That is something which is a tangible accomplishment, which many treasure hunters may never achieve. At least one of my dreams will not die with me.

There is no turning back the hands of time, my friend, and I will accept and live with the hand that has been dealt to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Saturna]

A treasure hunter has to work with the facts, the probable, and the possible to look for the reasonable, and the logical.

The dreamer has no such restrictions.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning my future steak provider (with coffee). Never give up dreams. Being still a kiddie, you have many years to find some of them. Want some very good ones ? I even have a few in Az.

As the Jesuits, you have to get your mind around the fact that there were/are two faces of the Jesuit society. The Missions were / are one, and the Hierarchy in Rome another.

One of the reasons for the stories of rich Missions, comes from the clandestine mining operations, which 'basically', were not conducted by the lowly Missionary. For these mining operations to be worthwhile, the extracted metal had to show up in Rome .

To accomplish this they established the line of small missions or Capillas across northen Mexico from the west coast to just below Matamorros on the East coast where it was loaded on ships for transportation to Rome.

It was the custom for these Capillas to store everything underground for the night, then forward it the next day to the next mission. They were about one day by mule apart. Many had stored metal in their basement when the expulsion order was
implemented, Which was simply left there.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Over the years many of these capillas were forgotten and the metal still lies in the underground chamber. Every once in a while one is accidentally discovered which adds fuel to the story of the Jesuits being rich through mining, which is true.

It is not beyond reason that some of this metal was filtered off to some of the normal missions. However the main part went to Europe to finance the plot with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain, for which they were expelled in a simultaneous action, an action which in itself did not require such a coordinated move to merely expel them, but to nip a plot in the bud.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"One of the reasons for the stories of rich Missions, comes from the clandestine mining operations, which 'basically', were not conducted by the lowly Missionary. For these mining operations to be worthwhile, the extracted metal had to show up in Rome .

To accomplish this they established the line of small missions or Capillas across northen Mexico from the west coast to just below Matamorros on the East coast where it was loaded on ships for transportation to Rome.

It was the custom for these Capillas to store everything underground for the night, then forward it the next day to the next mission. They were about one day by mule apart. Many had stored metal in their basement when the expulsion order was implemented, Which was simply left there."


I really like your story. Flesh it out and put it in a book.......I'm a customer. As soon as you find one of those caches, left by the Jesuits, let me know. After all, history is changed by one turn of the spade.......or ,probably, a shovel in your case.

How many years/century's did this "metal" make that trip without ever once being discovered?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Perhaps you are on to something here.......only in reverse. What if the gold being moved along your underground railway was coming from the south and traveling north.......into Arizona?

Could that be part of the gold bars found by Harry LaFrance? That actually makes a much better, commercial wise, story. You actually have an ending.

Picture this: The gold coming from the legal mines of Northern Mexico is shipped south to Mexico City by the normal routes. Once there, portions are siphoned off/stolen/lifted/purloined by the Kings officers and shipped north by your secret trail. They are marked with a crown, showing that they were part of the king's fifth.

The idea is to hide the bars as far from other, even less scrupulous kings minions......fearing re-theft. They move the gold into Arizona, right through Apacheria and into the Superstitions. Nice lock box, guarded by bloodthirsty Apache.

By one of those strange coincidences, one of the officers who is up to his neck in this undertaking is Captain Juan de Peralta, from Arispe. He, along with a family friend, Juan Joseph de Grijalba were the leaders of this little plot. Grijalba was a secular priest and neighbor of the family patriarch, Blas Peralta.
Captain Peralta had use of Spanish soldiers to guard the loot all the way to it's final resting place.

I would appreciate a portion of the royalties and movie rights.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sorry oh onry cactus luvin one, that just didn't happen according to my information / data. Sorry also to BB. If you really want to go to the central gathering point for the area, which is still closed up with it's records and bars, come on down. From here they went East.

Scrounge up an ultra light or a Scorpion Helicopter, and let's follow them East. Using satt imaginary, I have tentively located several.

Get off of the couch, ya bum. What's a few narcos going 'Juramentado' That ever stop a genuine TH?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Never let the truth/facts get in the way of a good story". I believe that's why D.E. thru in the part about sunbathing in the Supe's.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Joe, I realize exactly what & why you are posting, but to counter your post, which I must admit is just as valid at this stage as mine because of my withholding information and pictures by necessity.

However, the end result of any clandestine operation, mining or otherwise, is to convert the 'whatever' into tangible results. Bars sitting in a remote cave in the Superstitions simply do not hack it, while bars showing up in Rome do, and did.

The 'simultaneous apprehension' action in the expulsion of the Jesuits was not necessary for a simple expulsion order, but to nip an international plot, 'very necessary', since The King did not have an exact idea just how far it had progressed, obviously.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

It is fairly well accepted history, that Charles III expelled the Jesuits from the Spanish Empire, hoping to get more revenue from the New World. The mine owners and ranchers wanted the natives for slaves, and the major obstacle standing in their way was the Society of Jesus. In addition to that, the king wanted to convert the mission Indians into tax-payers.

The rumors that the Jesuits were using the Indians to extract massive treasures of gold/silver from placers and mines, was unfounded. No great caches of treasure were being hidden away by the Order. Not all of the missionaries were made from the cloth of martyrs, and some would have broken under Spanish torture.....probably many.

While there would surely be Jesuits who would consider the finding of Tayopa very interesting, in all the years that you have been "public" with your find, the only Jesuit interest that has been shown, by your account, has been casual at best and never followed up by them. You have made much of that first blush of curiosity, yet you seem oblivious to the lack of further contact by even that one (1) priest.

There are thousands of abandoned, worked-out mines in Mexico. Some may still contain rich ores. In fact, it is likely. I assume you have one of them, and it may very well have been named Tayopa. From what I have read here, you have no proof that it was Jesuit owned or even connected to the missionaries.

What we seem to have in our debate, is a difference of degrees. I believe Jesuit mining or placer working may have been done on individual, small scale operations. You and others who believer in Jesuit treasure are sure it was done on a massive scale, the Tayopa legend being just one case.

If you have found something of importance, you may be able to show us gold/silver ore or even refined ingots. The only thing that will change history as we know it, is the smoking gun of Jesuit involvement. Who knows what that evidence will consist of........if any. For me, I hope that beyond the riches, you find such evidence. If that happens your name, my friend, will be added to history.

On a side matter: The culture of Spanish rule in Mexico has always been one of greed and corruption.......always. Even though the mine owners may very well have been wealthy beyond their needs, they were always obsessed by family legacies. They wanted their family name and power/wealth to continue forever.

Hiding a vast treasure in a distant place just outside Spanish holdings might have seemed very appealing to them, passing along the derrotero to their descendents, generation after generation. They could never have foreseen the coming nation that would envelope their family treasure.

Happy New Year

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bk, have been away on Guaymas on gov' business.

Joe, you never answered -->

The 'simultaneous apprehension' action in the expulsion of the Jesuits was not necessary for a simple expulsion order, but to nip an international plot, 'very necessary', since The King did not have an exact idea just how far it had progressed, obviously
***********
A simple statement that the king wanted more revenue, is true of all of us in our own world, but does not begin to explain the need for a simultaneous expulsion.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

You also asked -->Not all of the missionaries were made from the cloth of martyrs, and some would have broken under Spanish torture.....probably many.
************
On this we obviously agree, which is precisely the reason the various parts of the order were kept apart- The old "Need to know thingie".

Do you think for one moment that the Catholic Priests in various parts of the world are privy to what the Vatican is actually thinking or planning even today, or who runs the multitude of businesses owned by the Catholic church today ?

In fact, if it weren't for the so called freedom of information act, none of us would know, nor the fact that most are tax free.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joe you posted -->
From what I have read here, you have no proof that it was Jesuit owned or even connected to the missionaries.
************
Shall I say no "posted in here proof". You seem to easily forget or ignore the unique position that I am in under Mexican laws and the present narcotic problem. It may well be that no bars etc. will ever be removed in my life time. My ego has been satisfied. I have posted in here primarily to show that these things do still exist and to encourage others to go look for their lost Troy.

As it stands, I can place you on top of Tayopa and defy you to find it, or an entrance. Nor can you explain why the resident Jesuit at Yecora was soo excited when he understood that I knew where Tayopa was. The subsequent meeting will remain unpublished due to request.

SOOOOO in essence, all that you have to go on so far is simply my personal anecdotes, The existence of the mine of Tayopa should have no actual doubts, If, you read all of my posts.
******************
You posted --> On a side matter: The culture of Spanish rule in Mexico has always been one of greed and corruption.......always.
************
Now you know how the US was patterned.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You also posted -->It is fairly well accepted history, that Charles III expelled the Jesuits from the Spanish Empire, hoping to get more revenue from the New World. The mine owners and ranchers wanted the natives for slaves, and the major obstacle standing in their way was the Society of Jesus.
************
A simple Kingly signature would have settled that, no need for an expensive military operation'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And finally, you posted --> In addition to that, the king wanted to convert the mission Indians into taxpayers.
************
Hmm just how much would fur lined loin cloths contribute to the King's treasury?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

It's not possible to teach the history of the Jesuit suppression on a site such as this. The best I can do is suggest that you read a few books on the subject, outside the treasure hunting genre.

"The Power and Secret of the Jesuits" would be a good place to start. If you have some suggestions from your side of the debate, I will be more than willing to read them.

"And finally, you posted --> In addition to that, the king wanted to convert the mission Indians into taxpayers.
************
Hmm just how much would fur lined loin cloths contribute to the King's treasury?"

Makes me wonder if you understand the collective power of the king's taxation system, or the power conferred on the Jesuits to collect tithings.

In addition, you might want to read "Antigua California: Mission and Colony on the Peninsular Frontier, 1697-1768." By Harry W. Crosby. If you should do that, pay close attention to chapter 12 for the events that helped create the expulsion in Mexico.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI joe: I see that when we finally have that steak dinner, that steak must be precut, and no knives allowed at the table.

You are 'fixed' on books on the Missions, but not on the representatives of the order in Rome - a tremendous difference, with huge diverging interests.

I am on the involvements in plots in many parts of the world, which continue even to this day. In the past these plots included mining in the new world as well as the old for power, which means political clout, requiring, err, ah, rich gifts...

Now they are into tax free manufacturing & business, they even produce of Condoms, while simultaneously preaching that their usage is unacceptable / forbidden??

I believe that Celibacy was a requirement of the vows , yet look what recent revelations have produced, proofs of scores of actions by the very ones that are supposedly teaching us such things as "men that lay with men etc., are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord?

I have constantly made it clear that as far as I an concerned, the mission priest starved or prospered with his flock, while the main group lived in luxury and opulence in Rome, where anything that furthered the Order was considered right, and even required.

Since I cannot, nor will I provide any more than what I have posted so far for many stated reasons, we are at an impasse'.

I congratulate you on your steadfast belief in goodness on the 'entire' Jesuit Hierarchy and Obama, but not for your closed mind or willingness to accept any tarnish on the Society, despite centuries of data to the contrary.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exict to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I have no idea why you have such a hard time focusing on our topic here.

I left the Catholic Church many, many years ago. I am not a fan of the church, nor any church for that matter. I have no illusions concerning the good or evil which resides in all of the Catholic hierarchy, from the Pope on down. The same holds true, IMHO, for all of mankind.

"I congratulate you on your steadfast belief in goodness on the 'entire' Jesuit Hierarchy and Obama, but not for your closed mind or willingness to accept any tarnish on the Society, despite centuries of data to the contrary."

I am not talking about "centuries of data" here. I am discussing a specific place and era. Not only that, but we are debating "JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?", and that in the context of Mexico and more specifically Sonora. Mike made it fairly clear that Mexico was the primary focus (treasure wise) of the topic in his first post.

Because you lack any evidence, of substance, to back up your claims, you try to switch the topic to the shortcomings of the church and priests throughout their history, right up to modern times. I concede that well documented fact, and despite your claim, have never denied it.

No one has yet to turn up a single Jesuit treasure, as it is defined by treasure hunters. While there have been some good stories, like yours and the newspaper account that was posted here, there has never been a Jesuit treasure that has been presented for authentication....that I know of. Until that happens, it remains folklore and legend.

You, my friend, have a vested interest in the legends being true. I have no vested interest either way. That means one of us has something to gain by the fruition of our biases. My biases are based on documented history. Your's are based on what you hope history will turn out to be.

When your hopes turn into reality, I will be cheering.......loudly!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Joe, so be it, nothing further to discuss under the circumstances. Sigh..

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Why not try "JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?" That would be less contentious than.....Why is Joe a Catholic apologist, which is what you have unfairly painted me as. This topic is not about the Catholic Church or the Pope in Rome. IMHO, It's about questioning the reality of treasures created and hidden by the Society of Jesus........in Mexico.

If your hands are tied behind you back, evidence wise, then you have no evidence. If you want me to agree with your claims because I like you, then we have no debate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Joe, mi buddy: Just remember that I am not like Roy, I like my steaks beyond any vet's recovery ability, med well done. smoooooch !

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

For you, I will just throw the steak on the coals, and you can pull it out when it stops sizzeling. That's as far as I will go, as I won't be a party to such barbaric treatment of a fine steak.

Take care,

Gourmet Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI my buddy friend, do I supply cheap steaks, or are you going to provide grade a-1 ones? In any event I must remind myself to bring a huge supply of Garlic, I don't wish to wake up after the meal to find myself the actual main course.

Blood thirsty vampire thingie you know.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

My grandfather was third generation American of Sicilian descent. He traveled back to Sicily to meet and marry my grandmother. She taught my mom how to cook Italian, and mom taught me.

If you are in my camp/home, having enough garlic will be the least of your worries.

Take care,

Joe