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Thread: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

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  1. #1021
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    What monuments are you talking about?

    Some people are smarter than heck, but put them in front of a crowd and they look/sound re_tarded. CK was a real estate guy and a treasure hunter. I don't think he ever claimed to be Tony Robbins. LOL

    MIke
    Mike,

    From what I have heard from people who knew him, every rock he saw was a monument.

    I think I sent you a copy of that CD. If that was your assessment, it's possible I viewed it wrong.

    Take care,

    Joe

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  3. #1022
    Charter Member
    us
    Cruces Nomad

    Nov 2010
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    I learned 2 things in the last few post. I did not know Jesuits wore black robes. Also its likely Jesuits hid mines. I'm not sold on the idea completely. But have seen enough black robed guys on walls and mines that are hidden. The Indians did not hide these mines.
    Life is too short to be serious all the time. So if you cant laugh at yourself, call me....I'll laugh at you.

    6) While access to this section is restricted to Charter Members, it is not to be considered a part of the Charter Member package. No refunds are given on Charter Memberships for any reason.

  4. #1023
    Charter Member
    bo
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Mike,

    From what I have heard from people who knew him, every rock he saw was a monument.

    I think I sent you a copy of that CD. If that was your assessment, it's possible I viewed it wrong.

    Take care,

    Joe
    I have said this before, but it does bear repeating:

    A friend of mine has copies of a lot of letters CK sent various people over the years. They look like form letters. They basically say: "WOW! Looks like you are on to something there. Keep at it. All the hard work will eventually pay off." I paraphrased the letters.

    My friend didn't understand why he did that. I completely understood those letters. Because of my postings and my website, I get a ton of people sending me pics to evaluate. If all I see is a rock, I tell them so. More often than not, I get the reply "I can't believe you can't see the Jesuit Symbols in the way the branch of that bush is shaped." Some people even get mad when I tell them something they don't want to hear. I am sure that since CK published several books on the subject, and was pretty well known, he got even more than me. So, when he got a picture of a bush, in order to avoid arguments that you can't ever win, he sent the form letter. On the occasion a pic came in that truly showed something, he gave it more personal attention.

    I don't think he saw monuments in every rock. He was a sharp guy. He knew what he was looking at. When he thought he was on to something, he called in the Big Guns at SRI (Stanford Research Institute). Physicists, Mining Engineers, Electronic Engineers, and they brought in all their hi tech gear. I think some of it was just telling people what they wanted to hear, and maybe some to throw people off. I don't know for sure. I never had that talk with him, but I do think he was more discerning than that.

    Mike

  5. #1024
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    I have said this before, but it does bear repeating:

    A friend of mine has copies of a lot of letters CK sent various people over the years. They look like form letters. They basically say: "WOW! Looks like you are on to something there. Keep at it. All the hard work will eventually pay off." I paraphrased the letters.

    My friend didn't understand why he did that. I completely understood those letters. Because of my postings and my website, I get a ton of people sending me pics to evaluate. If all I see is a rock, I tell them so. More often than not, I get the reply "I can't believe you can't see the Jesuit Symbols in the way the branch of that bush is shaped." Some people even get mad when I tell them something they don't want to hear. I am sure that since CK published several books on the subject, and was pretty well known, he got even more than me. So, when he got a picture of a bush, in order to avoid arguments that you can't ever win, he sent the form letter. On the occasion a pic came in that truly showed something, he gave it more personal attention.

    I don't think he saw monuments in every rock. He was a sharp guy. He knew what he was looking at. When he thought he was on to something, he called in the Big Guns at SRI (Stanford Research Institute). Physicists, Mining Engineers, Electronic Engineers, and they brought in all their hi tech gear. I think some of it was just telling people what they wanted to hear, and maybe some to throw people off. I don't know for sure. I never had that talk with him, but I do think he was more discerning than that.

    Mike
    Mike,

    I was in touch with those folks back in 2009. They did not have much faith in Kenworthy's "Spanish signs". They were in the mountains with him, and considered most of those "Spanish signs" natural rock formations. Same as most of the other folks he showed them to.

    One other thing, I don't believe they ever found anything with their "high tech gear", for Kenworthy. For sure, not in the Superstitions.

    On the other hand, lots of good people believed in him....like you.

    Take care,

    Joe

  6. #1025
    Charter Member
    bo
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Mike,

    I was in touch with those folks back in 2009. They did not have much faith in Kenworthy's "Spanish signs". They were in the mountains with him, and considered most of those "Spanish signs" natural rock formations. Same as most of the other folks he showed them to.

    One other thing, I don't believe they ever found anything with their "high tech gear", for Kenworthy. For sure, not in the Superstitions.

    On the other hand, lots of good people believed in him....like you.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Joe,

    I can only go by what I have found based on his information.

    I think one of the only people still around from those days with him is Lambert Dolphin. I can guarantee that you didn't get a bad word about CK from him. Also, here is a quote from Dolphin regarding CK:

    My close friendship with Chuck continues to this day and I must say all his efforts have paid off handsomely for him as he does sometimes find treasures and has two well-selling books on the market about Spanish mining practices in the New World.
    Here is Lambert's website where the quote came from:

    Chapter Five of the True Story of the C&RPL

    So, I don't know who you spoke to from SRI, but Lambert was the Senior Physicist there for 35 years, as well as being known as the Father of modern Ground Penetrating Radar. He is retired and spends the greatest majority of his time studying the Bible and writing his thoughts on the subject. He is a VERY religious man, and is one person I would NEVER question anything he told me as fact.

    Best - Mike

  7. #1026
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,496
    611 times
    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    ...He is a VERY religious man, and is one person I would NEVER question anything he told me as fact...
    Now THAT'S a line in the sand! I accept that Mr. Dolphin is as forthright as they come, but that doesn't guarantee anything re Kenworthy. It's only Dolphin's version of the truth. And that's fine, but it's a classic example of faulty logic. It's your current belief, and you may be correct about Kenworthy. Or not. Nobody has ever said that he hasn't identified signs found and findable in the field. It's his interpretation of that stuff (King's Code, Spanish treasure, etc.) that is disinformative, IMO. And with malice aforethought too, IMO.

    [Also, as an aside, accepting a 'religious guarantee' has disappointed legions of others over the centuries.]
    "The gods were smiling when you were born. Now they're laughing."​ Chinese fortune cookie

  8. #1027
    Charter Member
    bo
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
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    If Dr. Lambert Dolphin tells me something as a fact.....I will accept it as such. I have NEVER had reason to doubt ANYTHING he has told me.

    I have also shown previously a trail of monuments that include some of CKs that led to the biggest find of mine so far.

    It is not so much a religious guarantee as much as it is based on the life of the man himself. As I have stated previously, there are precious few people in this world that I would take anything they told me as gospel, but Dr. Lambert Dolphin is one.

    Best - Mike

  9. #1028
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    If Dr. Lambert Dolphin tells me something as a fact.....I will accept it as such. I have NEVER had reason to doubt ANYTHING he has told me.

    I have also shown previously a trail of monuments that include some of CKs that led to the biggest find of mine so far.

    It is not so much a religious guarantee as much as it is based on the life of the man himself. As I have stated previously, there are precious few people in this world that I would take anything they told me as gospel, but Dr. Lambert Dolphin is one.

    Best - Mike
    Mike,

    That's fine for you, as you were sold on Kenworthy before you ever heard of Dolphin. None of what you have posted has anything to do with his works leading to Spanish treasures. Dolphin's site does not mention their finding Spanish treasures anywhere in the Southwest.

    The King's Code story tells me everything I need to know about Chuck Kenworthy's expertise on finding Spanish treasures......... on land. I do see the treasure he found in his publications. Helped to build some of that myself.

    I'm more than happy that following Kenworthy's teachings you have found your "biggest find". Did you post pictures of what was found at the end of the trail? My brain don't work so good no more, so I may have seen pictures and just forgot.

    Wishing you the best of luck in the new year.

    Take care,

    Joe

  10. #1029
    Charter Member
    bo
    Jan 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Mike,

    That's fine for you, as you were sold on Kenworthy before you ever heard of Dolphin. None of what you have posted has anything to do with his works leading to Spanish treasures. Dolphin's site does not mention their finding Spanish treasures anywhere in the Southwest.

    The King's Code story tells me everything I need to know about Chuck Kenworthy's expertise on finding Spanish treasures......... on land. I do see the treasure he found in his publications. Helped to build some of that myself.

    I'm more than happy that following Kenworthy's teachings you have found your "biggest find". Did you post pictures of what was found at the end of the trail? My brain don't work so good no more, so I may have seen pictures and just forgot.

    Wishing you the best of luck in the new year.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Joe,

    If I am not mistaken, I privately emailed them to you. Because of the location, I never openly post finds.

    Dr. Dolphin doesn't go into detail about what CK found. He helped on several occasions, most famously the Spanish Shipwreck by Catalina Island. The one that John Wayne was in on. They had found the location of the wreck, then the Glomar Explorer anchored over the dive site. Since it had just come back from scooping up that Russian Sub, there was no diving anywhere near her. When she finally moved away, they sent divers down. The whole seabed was dug out there. The only thing left was a plate and some other things. CK wound up suing Howard Hughes, the CIA, and I don't remember exactly who else. Big lawsuit back then.

    THE TREASURE IN HIS PUBLICATIONS?!?!? THAT is a laugh buddy. Seeing as how CK was worth many millions of dollars before he ever hunted his first treasure, the few thousand he made off those books doesn't amount to spit! Remember, treasure hunting has a very small audience. He didn't write "Gone With the Wind" or "Catcher in the Rye". He wrote what amounts to technical manuals for treasure hunters. HAHAHA ........and by the way, those books ARE self-published.

    Did you post pictures of what was found at the end of the trail? My brain don't work so good no more, so I may have seen pictures and just forgot.
    Now Joe, before I go getting angry, your above quote looks an awful lot like you don't trust my word. In other words, you may not think I am being truthful. Is that so? I ask now, because we typically get along so well. I know how internet postings can sometimes convey meanings that aren't intended.

    Mike

    PS

    I just remembered, I showed you those pics at the Rendezvous.
    Last edited by gollum; Jan 07, 2014 at 06:12 PM.
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  11. #1030
    us
    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Rick,

    I don't think many people who were shown these monuments, could actually see them the same way that Kenworthy saw them. From the CD I saw of him giving a talk on his conclusions on the Stone Maps, I would say a fair statement would be that he even confused himself.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Thanks Joe,

    I live a long way from Arizona but the stories about these two caches is interesting to me. I think I'll do a little research about the area and these caches. Maybe I'll learn something about early mining in the southwest.

    Rick

  12. #1031
    us
    Mar 2011
    366
    111 times
    This is from one of Mike's posts.

    "Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 of these! Over a ton of silver just West of the 19 between Tucson and Nogales:



    Who but the Jesuits would smelt over a ton of silver bars to remember a Jesuit Priest that was martyred in the Pima Uprising of 1695?"

    Here's an example about how this bar could have a different meaning than what the words imply.

    One of the meanings of the word SAETA in Spanish is arrow. We all know that an arrow can be used to point direction. There are also 4 letters in this name that give you a direction, EAST. There is one letter remaining which is an A. An A in Spanish means "to". So the name Saeta on this bar could be telling you that these bars are to be transported to a place in the east.

    Just a possible meaning.

    Rick
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  13. #1032
    us
    Mar 2011
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    Here is something else that seems interesting. If you use the English alphabet and assign each letter in PADRE SAETA a number, you come up with a 44 from PADRE and a 46 from SAETA. Add these together to get 90. New Orleans is east of the cache site and at 90 deg longitude.

    Rick

  14. #1033
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,496
    611 times
    Quote Originally Posted by mdog View Post
    This is from one of Mike's posts.

    "Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 of these! Over a ton of silver just West of the 19 between Tucson and Nogales:



    Who but the Jesuits would smelt over a ton of silver bars to remember a Jesuit Priest that was martyred in the Pima Uprising of 1695?"

    Here's an example about how this bar could have a different meaning than what the words imply.

    One of the meanings of the word SAETA in Spanish is arrow. We all know that an arrow can be used to point direction. There are also 4 letters in this name that give you a direction, EAST. There is one letter remaining which is an A. An A in Spanish means "to". So the name Saeta on this bar could be telling you that these bars are to be transported to a place in the east.

    Just a possible meaning.

    Rick
    And another, hidden in plain sight: a Spanish anagram for the letters p-a-d-r-e-s-a-e-t-a-m is "estrada mapa". If I were looking for a message on the bars, one thing I'd do is see if I could find a 1695 map attributed to someone named Estrada. Then I'd work with the two rows of six dots, the two crosses and the V. Too much time on my hands, maybe?
    mdog and markmar like this.
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  15. #1034
    Charter Member
    bo
    Jan 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdog View Post
    This is from one of Mike's posts.

    "Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 of these! Over a ton of silver just West of the 19 between Tucson and Nogales:



    Who but the Jesuits would smelt over a ton of silver bars to remember a Jesuit Priest that was martyred in the Pima Uprising of 1695?"

    Here's an example about how this bar could have a different meaning than what the words imply.

    One of the meanings of the word SAETA in Spanish is arrow. We all know that an arrow can be used to point direction. There are also 4 letters in this name that give you a direction, EAST. There is one letter remaining which is an A. An A in Spanish means "to". So the name Saeta on this bar could be telling you that these bars are to be transported to a place in the east.

    Just a possible meaning.

    Rick
    MDOG,

    Where to start? First, in Spanish East is "ESTE". If you are looking for a Spanish word there you do have "ESTA", so, "A ESTA PADRE" (this father).

    Mike
    mdog likes this.
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  16. #1035
    us
    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    MDOG,

    Where to start? First, in Spanish East is "ESTE". If you are looking for a Spanish word there you do have "ESTA", so, "A ESTA PADRE" (this father).

    Mike
    Thanks Mike,

    I wasn't looking for Spanish, I was looking for something that is not obvious.

    I'm not saying that my interpretation is the right one, I'm just saying that just because a bar of silver has some Spanish words on it, doesn't mean that the guys who put it there were Spanish.

    Rick

  17. #1036
    us
    Mar 2011
    366
    111 times
    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Spring,

    Look carefully at the bar. See the cross over the letter "M"? Don't the dots on both sides make the thing look like a grave?

    While I have never seen it in writing, or anywhere else, our best guess as to what it means is that when Father Saeta was murdered by the Pimas in 1695, they took all the gold and silver from the Caborca Mission, melted it down into bars, and gave it back to God. In 1695, the area these two caches were found was on the far North End of the Jesuit Frontier. Padre Kino would not establish Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Javier del Bac for a few more years. We are calling it a "MARTYR" Cache. That is what we believe the Cross over the "M" means (Martyr). It is my belief that none of those bars were ever meant to be recovered. As they were stained with the blood of a martyr, they were put back in the ground from whence they came.

    I doubt that one thousand and twenty-eight bars would be made to deceive. I believe it was a tribute to a man that gave his life for the Order.

    Mike
    You could be right that the dots with the M and the cross between them might signify a Martyr's grave.

    There are 12 dots and the 12th letter of the alphabet is L. If you look at the M first, because it is more obvious, then look for the L, you have the Roman Numeral for 1050. It might be that this is an inventory number showing the count of the silver bars. If Kenworthy recovered 1028, the other 22 could have been payment for the guys who moved the silver to the cache site.

    This mystery will probably never be solved, but it's fun doing the research and exploring the possibilities.

    Rick
    markmar likes this.

  18. #1037
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
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    Another thing I was curious about was Kenworthy's claim that 1028 silver bars were recovered. I wonder if there is a photograph that shows all, or more than one, of these bars? Can the 1028 total be verified? If it can't, then the number '1028' would also enter the conversation - assuming, of course, that Kenworthy's discovery was staged in order to provide information that is considerably different than what it appears to be. This is speculative at this point, but I find the 'matryr tribute' explanation - giving the silver back to God - questionable. The coordinates for the point of discovery would be nice to know too.

    While we're at it, there's another interesting aspect to this silver bar. The cross chosen for the bar's obverse is the same cross that identifies the Knights Templar, which suggests an intriguing relationship between the two groups, their alleged confederates (particularly Freemasons) and other alleged coded treasure caches.
    Last edited by Springfield; Jan 09, 2014 at 08:31 AM.
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  19. #1038
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    If all the bars have the same inscription , are not a map . Could be a map , if this inscription was only on one bar .
    Last edited by markmar; Jan 09, 2014 at 03:32 PM.
    Marius


  20. #1039
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Mike, do you know of any other instance where a martyred priest was honored by the commemorative casting of bullion bars or medallions, coins etc? I got the impression that martyrs were honored in different ways than that, usually by preserving relics of the dead priest, setting up an altar dedicated to him etc. Thank you in advance,
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  21. #1040
    us
    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield View Post
    Another thing I was curious about was Kenworthy's claim that 1028 silver bars were recovered. I wonder if there is a photograph that shows all, or more than one, of these bars? Can the 1028 total be verified? If it can't, then the number '1028' would also enter the conversation - assuming, of course, that Kenworthy's discovery was staged in order to provide information that is considerably different than what it appears to be. This is speculative at this point, but I find the 'matryr tribute' explanation - giving the silver back to God - questionable. The coordinates for the point of discovery would be nice to know too.

    While we're at it, there's another interesting aspect to this silver bar. The cross chosen for the bar's obverse is the same cross that identifies the Knights Templar, which suggests an intriguing relationship between the two groups, their alleged confederates (particularly Freemasons) and other alleged coded treasure caches.
    Yes, it would be nice to have more information about the cache and the area where it was recovered. Maybe a Tnet poster was present at the recovery and would share information.

    That's interesting about the Templar cross on the reverse side. If there are some Masons reading, maybe they could tell us if there is anything else on the PADRE SAETA side that would indicate any Masonic or Templar symbology or numerology. Well... besides the capital M.

    Rick

 

 
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