"Egyptian" treasure or what in the Arizona landscape?

[Gossamer]

Most of us are familiar with the story published in the Arizona Republic about a guy named Kincaid finding a cave or caves in the Grand Canyon. I know much has been speculated about this subject and many have tried to find the caves or info about them. Aside from that, does anyone have any OTHER information about "Egyptian" artifacts, architecture or thought about this?
I have been fascinated by the story, and with some interesting new developments coming around in the form of people finally stepping out from behind their PhD or the strict structure most scholars find themselves locked in, anyway I think there is more to this story than just what is published.
Tell me what you think.
Janiece/Gossamer

 

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[allen_idaho]

The problem is that there isn't much to go on. The entire story originates from a very small newspaper article published in 1909. The two men in the article (Kincaid and Jordan) claimed to be employed by the Smithsonian and had brought a number of artifacts to town which spawned the article. Here is an excerpt from that article:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kincaid, the archaeologists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses. If their theories are borne out by the translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came will be solved.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Egypt and the Nile, and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain running back to ages, which staggers the wildest fancy of the fictionist. Under the direction of Professor S.A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute is now prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged.

Now this raises a few questions. Such as why the Smithsonian has no record of them or the expedition they were supposedly funding. Nor why any of these artifacts have ever surfaced. Or why such a massive discovery would only be reported once. [/FONT]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning gossy of the 7 veils & Allen, join me for a nice cuppa of hot sock coffee? You both have very interesting points, coupled with an 'off limits' posting by the appropriate gov't service responsible for the area gives one serious thought. The lame report that it was for safety reasons, yet leaving the rest of the Grand canyon open is a bit curious.

If I may deviate a bit to show why such a blackout could exist, consider the case of the Legendary Tayopa, the lost mine of the Jesuits. There is absolutely no 'official' proof that it existed because of the circumstances under which it was worked, yet it did exist and has been found.

So the mere fact of records being buried, or not apparently existing, while interesting, is not conclusive proof that it didn't exist. There are many cases of "never existed or happened" in the various files of institutions or gov'ts, such as juvenile records or other court decisions.

May I also suggest Atlantis, which apparently has been located by the members of Treasure net. Definite records simply do not knowingly exist, yet sufficient rumors do, and T Net members were able to lock in on a location which seems to fir all requirements and also includes the origin of the Aztecs.

So, since I am also interested in this location, as well as Gossy' dance, let's get at it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Here's some close shots of details from an interesting petroglyph panel in New Mexico. There's a nice 'eye' with an 'M' above it next to the panel. I don't have a clear enough photo of it to post. :

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Springfied mi amigo, coffee? Very interesting and thought provoking my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Springfied mi amigo, coffee? Very interesting and thought provoking my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I have the following two websites in my favorites list, but honestly have never read through them completely. I've only been interested in the stories in passing, and odds are those of you posting here already know as much or more than what's available at these links, but that said I wanted to put them here in case you haven't seen them. Hopefully you'll find some useful information - whether it's pro or con whatever theories you have.

Did Ancient Chinese Visit the Grand Canyon?

Lost City of the Dead in the Grand Canyon

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias mi lost buddy Cubber, I didn't have them.

Don Jose d eLa Mancha

 

[austin]

Have a book called:
Exploration in Texas, Ancient and Otherwise by John L. Davis. Part of it examines the Chinese in the southwestern United States. Fairly interesting reading...

 

[Springfield]

Here's a classic on the same topic

Pale ink;: Two ancient records of Chinese exploration in America: Henriette Mertz: 9780804005999: Amazon.com: Books

 

[FreeBird]

Here's some close shots of details from an interesting petroglyph panel in New Mexico. There's a nice 'eye' with an 'M' above it next to the panel. I don't have a clear enough photo of it to post. :

View attachment 731803 View attachment 731804

Ah, the mystery glyphs.

Ancient Lost Treasures ? View topic - Mystery Glyphs of New Mexico

They are found across the western states it seems. I've been obsessed with them for a while, and have no clue what they mean. However on the pic on the left I ee an interesting symbol, next to triangle with feet. It looks a lot like this symbol. inside the circle. Just something I ran across today. I have pictures of these mystery glyphs from utah, colorado, wyoming, nevada, new mexico. Egyptian in origin has been my thought.

 

[desertmoons]

Hey free bird, do you know the dimensions of any of those panels over all? And can you stand ..oh say at least 6 feet away from them to view them? Gossamer, I try to remember that just cause it looks old,it may not be old. If I carve Abraham Lincoln onto a panel, then next week you come upon it, it does not mean it was carved in the 1860's. I do believe there have been some pretty blatant cover ups in the area of archaeology. The best face on it, is, it was done to protect sites. The worse case is the idea that revealing this would cause some harm of some sort to the USA and/or greed is involved.

 

[Springfield]

It's my opinion that the Mystery Glyphs were created ca 1880-1940+/-.

 

[geezerdb]

What's to say that maby Kincaid was a prankster? I have always thought it would be fun to go out into a remote area and carve some glyphs into some rocks and 'age' them so as to fool the average person. Then while out exploring the area for 'the first time' with some friends, a prankster could 'discover' the glyphs with the friends who could verify the find. Add in a tale of a cave find, with some ancient treasures or artifacts, and Presto! you have a treasure legend in the making. It's been done before, for profit, for fun, or larcency. And such 'pranks' have a way of taking on a life of thier own!
Take an economically depressed area, throw in some treasure cave rumors or UFO sightings, etc etc and you bring in tourists, treasure hunters and believers who leave cash treasure in the tills of the local businesses.
Not saying I'd ever do such a thing, but . . . . . . .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

the carvings in the photographs are modern...when one has examined true rock art, one notices, that the original art forms have formed a patina in the carving.
these photographs show distinctly, that the rock art is modern...no patina in the carving. looks as if it was done just for the photoshoot.

i believe this story was created to allow modern american expansion into the land of "savage and uncivilized" people.
chaco canyon, mesa verde, and several other impressive ruins caused much concern among the civilized people...since, these ruins, were better engineered than most modern buildings of the pioneer period in the americas.

 

[Springfield]

the carvings in the photographs are modern...when one has examined true rock art, one notices, that the original art forms have formed a patina in the carving.
these photographs show distinctly, that the rock art is modern...no patina in the carving. looks as if it was done just for the photoshoot.

i believe this story was created to allow modern american expansion into the land of "savage and uncivilized" people.
chaco canyon, mesa verde, and several other impressive ruins caused much concern among the civilized people...since, these ruins, were better engineered than most modern buildings of the pioneer period in the americas.

Most petroglyphs in the southwest are carved on basalt, and many others on sandstone, volcanic tuff and other types of rock. A method of aging rock carvings has not been established. Some geologists have made age judgements based on microscopic analysis of exposed crystals on certain rock types, but even these methods have not been accepted by all. Weathering and mechanical erosion can be used to compare certain carvings against others on the same surface, but this too is sketchy because of the unknown quality of tools used. Some petroglyphs become overgrown with lichen - this allows one to determine how long the lichen has been in place, but this method too is sketchy and variable in accuracy.

Your 'patina' method method might occasionally be useful in a limited number of cases, but the carvings below were incised in limestone, which isn't susceptible to forming 'patinas'. The only judgement one can make about the carvings is that they were carefully created with sharp metal tools. Under a microscope, one might find evidence of the metal used and then try to date the technology used to make the tools, but this procedure would be a speculative long shot.

Perhaps the most acceptable method of dating rock carvings is cultural, which means attempting to determine what culture is responsible for creating them. This is tricky too, because of the 'copycat' option - carving a symbol from older cultures.

Bottom line: there is no way to date these petroglyphs without prior knowledge of who carved them and why. On this carving surface (very hard limestone), they could be very, very old. I believe they are less than 150 years old - maybe half that number - and were created in a very specific location relative to other petroglyphs and natural landmarks in the area. In other words, their location is of first importance, and their message, whatever it is, follows.

Kinkaid, if he existed, had nothing to do with these carvings, IMO.