Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[NewAge]

Historic Jesse James photograph with killer Robert Ford proven authentic | Daily Mail Online


I have sincere doubts that this is accurate. I do not believe these two are the same man (JWJ) at all.



* A. - ALLEGED

That is the photo to which I was referring.
Did any other expert confirm it was a genuine JJ photo?

I myself don't see the resemblances to JJ when he was killed.It does somewhat look like him when he was younger but Ford would also have been much younger himself.

JJ stories about people knowing or helping that gang are not rare.My Great Grandfather told stories about helping JJ and his gang.They were fun to listen to but even at my young age.I knew they were BS.

Us kids would sit on the floor while he smoked a pipe and told all kind of lies......another I remember is him chasing down a black bear and grabbing it by the tail.The tail pulled off and that is why black bears don't have tails.

 

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[sdcfia]

Reb, I believe I have found the document you referred to that asserts the body WAS FOUND face down. It is Pastore's, " Jesse W. James Forensic Analysis ".

Speaking of Pastore (whom I basically distrust for reasons of my own), do you have an opinion of the series of photos that used to be on his "Jesse James Photo Album" webpage a few years ago? That webpage was subsequently deleted. Below is an example with some decent lookalikes - a class picture from an outlaw finishing school, perhaps? (Credit RJ Pastore from former free use website)

 

[sdcfia]

In fact, the man in this photo more resembles J. Frank Dalton than he does the accepted photo's of Jesse Woodson James.




View attachment 1495243 View attachment 1495263

I agree. If the accepted photo is genuine, the man in the alleged photo clearly has a different hairline for starters.

 

[Ditlihi]

Speaking of Pastore (whom I basically distrust for reasons of my own), do you have an opinion of the series of photos that used to be on his "Jesse James Photo Album" webpage a few years ago? That webpage was subsequently deleted. Below is an example with some decent lookalikes - a class picture from an outlaw finishing school, perhaps? (Credit RJ Pastore from former free use website)

View attachment 1495284

Now isn't THAT interesting.

 

[Kace]

That is the photo to which I was referring.
Did any other expert confirm it was a genuine JJ photo?

I myself don't see the resemblances to JJ when he was killed.It does somewhat look like him when he was younger but Ford would also have been much younger himself.

JJ stories about people knowing or helping that gang are not rare.My Great Grandfather told stories about helping JJ and his gang.They were fun to listen to but even at my young age.I knew they were BS.

Us kids would sit on the floor while he smoked a pipe and told all kind of lies......another I remember is him chasing down a black bear and grabbing it by the tail.The tail pulled off and that is why black bears don't have tails.

Great Story! Kinda what we All are doing here First is to Narrow Down The Real JWJ. That's why we want EVERYONE Who Is Interested and has Anything to Contribute to Jump In.

Thank You For Doing That and Please Stay!

The Single Bottom Photo of JWJ that DIT posted has been confirmed Many Times to be JWJ of MO... I posted a Side By Side Of Both JWJ and the Man with ROBERT FORD?? Just for a Close Comparison. I'd have to pull up a known photo of RF for comparison To The Two Men Sitting Together for us to decide if that's Even RF.

 

[Kace]

FRANKLIN...Look at the Class Photo Post #402. 3rd From Left, Front Row...Jim Cummings with the KGC sign.

NOTE THE WRITING ON THE BACK OF HIS HAND!!

 

[Ditlihi]

Don't mean to sidetrack the photo comparison, but had a little more to add regarding the alleged original autopsy of the body presumed to be JWJ.

Excerpts from " The Border Bandits ; An authentic and thrilling history of the noted outlaws, Jesse and Frank James, and their bands of highwaymen. Compiled from reliable sources only and containing the latest facts in regard to these desperate freebooters. Also full particulars of the assassination of Jesse James ". - by*J. W. Buel

* Buel was a Missouri newspaperman, with experience on St. Louis and Kansas City newspapers, and purported to be the reporter who received his information directly from one of the four doctors who performed the preliminary autopsy of Jesse Woodson James in 1882. ( Note: There was never an Official autopsy report made or recorded by those doctors ). He became a prolific Author and his books can be found in many internet archives.


REGARDING WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A CORONER'S INQUEST, AND LATER AN AUTOPSY, AFTER JESSE JAMES' ASSASSINATION ON APRIL 3, 1882:

( from "The Border Bandits," testimonies at the Coroner's Inquest given by Charley Ford, Robert Ford, Henry H. Craig: Police Commissioner of Kansas City, James R. Timberlake: Sheriff of Clay County, James Andrew "Dick" Liddil, James Finley: Deputy Marshal of St. Joseph, and Zerelda Samuel, pages 451-460 ):

" . . . on Monday morning of April 3d, between the hours of nine and ten o'clock, the long looked for opportunity sought by the Ford boys presented itself, and Jesse fell a corpse from the effects of a pistol ball fired by Robert Ford, the particulars of which are officially told at the coroner's inquest held in the St. Joseph Court House a few hours after the shooting. Charley Ford was the first witness examined. . . . She [Zerelda Samuel] then retired from the room, and the [coroner's] jury withdrew to make up its verdict. After remaining out for about fifteen minutes they returned again to the room with the following verdict:

'We, the jury, find the body before us to be that of Jesse James, and that the deceased came to his death by a pistol shot fired by Robert Ford.'"

( from pages 464-465 ):

". . . About three o'clock in the afternoon [on April 3, 1882] a special train from Kansas City brought to St. Joseph Sheriff Timberlake, Commissioner Craig, Mrs. Samuels and several other parties, relatives and acquaintances of Jesse, upon whose arrival the [coroner's] inquest was begun at the [St. Joseph] Court House, and testimony was taken as already given. After the inquest was concluded the body was turned over to Mrs. James, who permitted it to remain at the undertaker's exposed to public view until after an autopsy had been made by Drs. George C. Catlett, Jacob Geiger, Hoyt, and Coroner J. W. Hedden. The skull-cap was removed to permit a thorough exposure of the brain, which was found to be above the average; the bullet entered the occipital bone, immediately behind the right ear, and traversed the brain in a slightly upward direction until it lodged in, but broke through, the skull back of the left ear, being found at the junction of the anture. The brain and skull were dreadfully shattered, large pieces of bone having been driven through the wound, which lacerated the entire cerebellum.


* A - Alleged

 

[Rebel - KGC]

NEVER seen it before...

 

[sdcfia]

Now isn't THAT interesting.

Look at this one. Makes no sense, eh? (Credit RJ Pastore from former free use website)

 

[Kace]

Don't mean to sidetrack the photo comparison, but had a little more to add regarding the alleged original autopsy of the body presumed to be JWJ.

Excerpts from " The Border Bandits ; An authentic and thrilling history of the noted outlaws, Jesse and Frank James, and their bands of highwaymen. Compiled from reliable sources only and containing the latest facts in regard to these desperate freebooters. Also full particulars of the assassination of Jesse James ". - by*J. W. Buel

* Buel was a Missouri newspaperman, with experience on St. Louis and Kansas City newspapers, and purported to be the reporter who received his information directly from one of the four doctors who performed the preliminary autopsy of Jesse Woodson James in 1882. ( Note: There was never an Official autopsy report made or recorded by those doctors ). He became a prolific Author and his books can be found in many internet archives.


REGARDING WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A CORONER'S INQUEST, AND LATER AN AUTOPSY, AFTER JESSE JAMES' ASSASSINATION ON APRIL 3, 1882:

( from "The Border Bandits," testimonies at the Coroner's Inquest given by Charley Ford, Robert Ford, Henry H. Craig: Police Commissioner of Kansas City, James R. Timberlake: Sheriff of Clay County, James Andrew "Dick" Liddil, James Finley: Deputy Marshal of St. Joseph, and Zerelda Samuel, pages 451-460 ):

" . . . on Monday morning of April 3d, between the hours of nine and ten o'clock, the long looked for opportunity sought by the Ford boys presented itself, and Jesse fell a corpse from the effects of a pistol ball fired by Robert Ford, the particulars of which are officially told at the coroner's inquest held in the St. Joseph Court House a few hours after the shooting. Charley Ford was the first witness examined. . . . She [Zerelda Samuel] then retired from the room, and the [coroner's] jury withdrew to make up its verdict. After remaining out for about fifteen minutes they returned again to the room with the following verdict:

'We, the jury, find the body before us to be that of Jesse James, and that the deceased came to his death by a pistol shot fired by Robert Ford.'"

( from pages 464-465 ):

". . . About three o'clock in the afternoon [on April 3, 1882] a special train from Kansas City brought to St. Joseph Sheriff Timberlake, Commissioner Craig, Mrs. Samuels and several other parties, relatives and acquaintances of Jesse, upon whose arrival the [coroner's] inquest was begun at the [St. Joseph] Court House, and testimony was taken as already given. After the inquest was concluded the body was turned over to Mrs. James, who permitted it to remain at the undertaker's exposed to public view until after an autopsy had been made by Drs. George C. Catlett, Jacob Geiger, Hoyt, and Coroner J. W. Hedden. The skull-cap was removed to permit a thorough exposure of the brain, which was found to be above the average; the bullet entered the occipital bone, immediately behind the right ear, and traversed the brain in a slightly upward direction until it lodged in, but broke through, the skull back of the left ear, being found at the junction of the anture. The brain and skull were dreadfully shattered, large pieces of bone having been driven through the wound, which lacerated the entire cerebellum.


* A - Alleged

GREAT DOCUMENT D!

Did I get the last part Right That According To Them...The Bullet DID NOT EXIT?? It Lodged inside the skull? And That The Cut Above His Left Eye Could Not Be An Exit Wound? According To Them...

 

[Kace]

Don't mean to sidetrack the photo comparison, but had a little more to add regarding the alleged original autopsy of the body presumed to be JWJ.

Excerpts from " The Border Bandits ; An authentic and thrilling history of the noted outlaws, Jesse and Frank James, and their bands of highwaymen. Compiled from reliable sources only and containing the latest facts in regard to these desperate freebooters. Also full particulars of the assassination of Jesse James ". - by*J. W. Buel

* Buel was a Missouri newspaperman, with experience on St. Louis and Kansas City newspapers, and purported to be the reporter who received his information directly from one of the four doctors who performed the preliminary autopsy of Jesse Woodson James in 1882. ( Note: There was never an Official autopsy report made or recorded by those doctors ). He became a prolific Author and his books can be found in many internet archives.


REGARDING WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A CORONER'S INQUEST, AND LATER AN AUTOPSY, AFTER JESSE JAMES' ASSASSINATION ON APRIL 3, 1882:

( from "The Border Bandits," testimonies at the Coroner's Inquest given by Charley Ford, Robert Ford, Henry H. Craig: Police Commissioner of Kansas City, James R. Timberlake: Sheriff of Clay County, James Andrew "Dick" Liddil, James Finley: Deputy Marshal of St. Joseph, and Zerelda Samuel, pages 451-460 ):

" . . . on Monday morning of April 3d, between the hours of nine and ten o'clock, the long looked for opportunity sought by the Ford boys presented itself, and Jesse fell a corpse from the effects of a pistol ball fired by Robert Ford, the particulars of which are officially told at the coroner's inquest held in the St. Joseph Court House a few hours after the shooting. Charley Ford was the first witness examined. . . . She [Zerelda Samuel] then retired from the room, and the [coroner's] jury withdrew to make up its verdict. After remaining out for about fifteen minutes they returned again to the room with the following verdict:

'We, the jury, find the body before us to be that of Jesse James, and that the deceased came to his death by a pistol shot fired by Robert Ford.'"

( from pages 464-465 ):

". . . About three o'clock in the afternoon [on April 3, 1882] a special train from Kansas City brought to St. Joseph Sheriff Timberlake, Commissioner Craig, Mrs. Samuels and several other parties, relatives and acquaintances of Jesse, upon whose arrival the [coroner's] inquest was begun at the [St. Joseph] Court House, and testimony was taken as already given. After the inquest was concluded the body was turned over to Mrs. James, who permitted it to remain at the undertaker's exposed to public view until after an autopsy had been made by Drs. George C. Catlett, Jacob Geiger, Hoyt, and Coroner J. W. Hedden. The skull-cap was removed to permit a thorough exposure of the brain, which was found to be above the average; the bullet entered the occipital bone, immediately behind the right ear, and traversed the brain in a slightly upward direction until it lodged in, but broke through, the skull back of the left ear, being found at the junction of the anture. The brain and skull were dreadfully shattered, large pieces of bone having been driven through the wound, which lacerated the entire cerebellum.


* A - Alleged

GREAT DOCUMENT D!

Did I get the last part Right That According To Them...The Bullet DID NOT EXIT?? It Lodged inside the skull? And That The Cut Above His Left Eye Could Not Be An Exit Wound? According To Them...

 

[Ditlihi]

Speaking of Pastore (whom I basically distrust for reasons of my own), do you have an opinion of the series of photos that used to be on his "Jesse James Photo Album" webpage a few years ago? That webpage was subsequently deleted. Below is an example with some decent lookalikes - a class picture from an outlaw finishing school, perhaps? (Credit RJ Pastore from former free use website)

View attachment 1495284

A network, obviously. And added confirmation for questioning the 'reasoning' behind what is entered into the public domain, both then...and now, eh?

 

[Ditlihi]

GREAT DOCUMENT D!

Did I get the last part Right That According To Them...The Bullet DID NOT EXIT?? It Lodged inside the skull? And That The Cut Above His Left Eye Could Not Be An Exit Wound? According To Them...

That's what I'm getting from it. But even this has been called into question by 'Conspiracy Theorists'. It has been alleged ( mainly in the Gen Forums ) that this information was "leaked" to the press on purpose, in order to confirm Bob Ford as the killer, and JWJ as the deceased. In other words, a bullet had to be recovered that matched Ford's weapon, and the body positively identified as JWJ.

Since an official report was never filed, we may never know the truth.

 

[Ditlihi]

GREAT DOCUMENT D!

Did I get the last part Right That According To Them...The Bullet DID NOT EXIT?? It Lodged inside the skull? And That The Cut Above His Left Eye Could Not Be An Exit Wound? According To Them...

Now I have a question for You, Kace.

When you were present at the exhumation of the body, was there any indication on the skull that such an autopsy had been performed previously? ( ie; the skull cap being removed, sutures, etc )

 

[Kace]

Then...What was the undamaged slug/bullet in the 1978 exhumation? An afterthought to toss something in the casket?

Myself, THAT is the exhumation to look at...The 1995 one, there was so little left in '78 and it had all been handled by several people that it was mainly done for mtDNA. To me there is No Doubt there was shifting in the casket as you suggested earlier.

 

[sdcfia]

That's what I'm getting from it. But even this has been called into question by 'Conspiracy Theorists'. It has been alleged ( mainly in the Gen Forums ) that this information was "leaked" to the press on purpose, in order to confirm Bob Ford as the killer, and JWJ as the deceased. In other words, a bullet had to be recovered that matched Ford's weapon, and t body positively identified as JWJ.

Since an official report was never filed, we may never know the truth.

When unexplainable events (then and now) make it clear that a conspiracy existed, then a curious person may find himself to be not a theorist, but a conspiracy analyst. Trouble is, as time goes by, this mystery and many others become so entangled in disinformation that everything is subject to doubt and the truth becomes a matter of an individual's faith in what explanation best suits him.

 

[Ditlihi]

When unexplainable events (then and now) make it clear that a conspiracy existed, then a curious person may find himself to be not a theorist, but a conspiracy analyst. Trouble is, as time goes by, this mystery and many others become so entangled in disinformation that everything is subject to doubt and the truth becomes a matter of an individual's faith in what explanation best suits him.

Hidden in plain sight, but bast*rdised to the point of eternal obscurity. Excellent strategy.

 

[Ditlihi]

Then...What was the undamaged slug/bullet in the 1978 exhumation? An afterthought to toss something in the casket?

Myself, THAT is the exhumation to look at...The 1995 one, there was so little left in '78 and it had all been handled by several people that it was mainly done for mtDNA. To me there is No Doubt there was shifting in the casket as you suggested earlier.

Has been posited that the extra unexplained bullet was from a previous soft tissue wound that remained within his body, and left behind when the body decomposed. Beats the heck out of me.

 

[Kace]

Now I have a question for You, Kace.

When you were present at the exhumation of the body, was there any indication on the skull that such an autopsy had been performed previously? ( ie; the skull cap being removed, sutures, etc )

NONE...in 1978. There was not any skin left to show sutures but the skull cap was Not cut open. In 1995 It Was In Pieces. Like I mentioned 1995 really meant very little to me as far as seeing what was in the ground/Grave. If I remember right and I could be wrong on the date, he was not reinterred until 1982. I did not go to that, a friend did though. To me after that length of time Anything could of happened but even that wasn't why I didn't go. I Wanted To See The Original 1978 exhumation to see the casket and what was left of the body. I knew it would not be anything but bones. The skull and teeth interested me. We had graves moved from family cemeteries from that era in the planning and construction of Truman Lake in Benton and St Clair Counties in MO...I was very aware of what shape the casket and remains would probably be in.

 

[franklin]

FRANKLIN...Look at the Class Photo Post #402. 3rd From Left, Front Row...Jim Cummings with the KGC sign.

NOTE THE WRITING ON THE BACK OF HIS HAND!!

Was that photo before JJ was assassinated? I suppose it was. On the back of Jim Cummings hand, I can see "82" and "A" "M" not to clear on anything else. Strange though 1882 was the year JJ was shot.